GM and Government Ownership Question

[82-T/A]

Originally Posted by sahein I already stated that there were oil wars. Since it is obvious you don't believe me, Please tell us what the wars are for. Gizmodo - Russia To Ring The Arctic With Floating Nuclear Power Stations - Nuclear

Regardless what the answer to your question is, are you somehow suggesting that eliminating our dependance on foreign oil is justification enough for the US government to usurp control of private industry?

I think you're REALLY missing the point here. If you DO think it's ok, then I think we're done here...

[GS Stage 1]

Originally Posted by njtex So, passenger cars are only responsible for 15% of US greenhouse gas emissions, that hasn't stopped our government from politicizing that industry either. Clamping down on the largest source of emissions, residential energy use just won't get anyone elected!

Terrible thing about math and science, it always gets in the way of the "truth".

[sahein]

Originally Posted by 82-T/A Regardless what the answer to your question is, are you somehow suggesting that eliminating our dependance on foreign oil is justification enough for the US government to usurp control of private industry? I think you're REALLY missing the point here. If you DO think it's ok, then I think we're done here...

Not at all. You are totally misrepresenting my statements. I don't know why you have to resort to such tactics instead of having valid points and facts of your own.

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by njtex So, passenger cars are only responsible for 15% of US greenhouse gas emissions, that hasn't stopped our government from politicizing that industry either. Clamping down on the largest source of emissions, residential energy use just won't get anyone elected!

And CO2 is only responsible for 3.68% of the "greenhouse effect," water vapor (99.999% of natural origin) accounting for 95% of the effect. Were we to park all our cars and huddle together in unheated houses, the total reduction in greenhouse effect would be less than 1/8 of 1%.

These "inconvenient facts" don't get much air time.

BTW, I don't want the federal government run _any_ business, the automobile industry in particular.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

[silversolstice]

Originally Posted by idkfa Is that how you really see elec or hydrogen cars going? I sure as hell hope not. Electric motors = instant torque and cheap solar is right around the corner. No more trunks lined with batteries. We may loose the sound of a rumbling v8 (which is definitely a sad loss) but once we have efficient electricity the possibilities are endless.

I just wanted to reply to idkfa from WAY back. I'm on board with you on electric motors but cheap solar is an oxymoron. It will never be cheap, it will always be subsidized... in our lifetime.

There are plans for 2 photovoltaic and one solar/hotwater plant out in the middle of nowhere in CA and they are having all sorts of problems. They take up too much space and interfere with too many animal migration paths.

[iainhp]

I already stated that there were oil wars. Since it is obvious you don't believe me, Please tell us what the wars are for. Gizmodo - Russia To Ring The Arctic With Floating Nuclear Power Stations - Nuclear

I'm not going to get into a flame war, but you specifically stated "OUR sons and daughters" so that would be US involved wars. List them all starting with the war of Independence - can you honestly say any of them were over oil? Korea? Viet Nam? WW II? Panama? Also, if we're talking about oil wars do you suddenly list an article on the Russians and nuclear power - what's that got to do with oil wars?

[iainhp]

Separate issue - electric cars. I read an article in today's Parade magazine. The statement in there is that the US is barely making sufficient electricity to meet current demand, and that demand is expected to rise 26% over the next 20 years. It also suggest that the Northeast and parts of the West will start to suffer from power shortages within 2 years.

I am not about to sit down and do the calculation, but if all the joules of energy used by all the automobiles in the US were suddenly required to come from our power stations, I think that would be a problem. There is no cheap solar out there today either - engineers have been working for years on trying to reduce the cost of photo voltaic cells. Etc.......

Don't get me wrong, I'm waiting for my first electric car (saw my first Tesla on a So Cal freeway yesterday), but there has to be huge infrastructure changes, and huge amounts of electrical generation added before electric cars become mainstream.

Maybe that's why those Russians Sahein was providing a link to, are building nuclear power stations like there's no tomorrow.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by PubliusE Come on, did you really think Wagoner would say something negative? He has a parachute to catch.

He doesn't have a parachute. The majority of his pension is an unsecured cash annuity over the next 5 years or so that GM hasn't funded. If they go into Chapter 11 he won't get that, just his health benefits and whatever is left of his GM stock. You have to admit that as much as we berate the guy, he didn't take GM for a ride on the way out.

Originally Posted by 82-T/A Bush was NOT responsible for the auto bailouts. He did however champion a $300+ billion dollar bailout for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Probably he stupidest thing he's ever done in his life...

Well, it did manage to break the contagion that had hit the financial markets and get people to calm down a little. I can't say I love the idea but it worked and they stand a good chance of paying back the funds over the long haul, with hefty amounts of interest. Insurance is a complex business and most insurance companies take out reinsurance on the policies they write, and those reinsurers tend to do the same, spreading the risk even further. There comes a point, though, that someone has to cough up the money, and in the worst case that becomes the government. But they will take a premium for this, as they should.

Originally Posted by 82-T/A Have you? The batteries in these Toyota Prius and Honda Hybrid vehicles are more damaging to the environment than a 74 Dodge Diplomat being driven for 300,000 miles. The entire process of refining those deep cycle batteries starts in Canada, goes literally around the world twice, and then comes back to the US. The damage from the refining / manufacturing, as well as the fuel used to transport the supplies, is horrendous.

Not that I disagree that a turbo diesel will blow the pants of a current-gen hybrid, but remember battery tech is still fairly crude. Given demand and about 10 years the manufacturing, transport, and recycling will all get streamlined. Right now there are too few players chasing low-volume niche markets. Once this goes mainstream true industrial efficiencies will be realized.

Originally Posted by silversolstice There are plans for 2 photovoltaic and one solar/hotwater plant out in the middle of nowhere in CA and they are having all sorts of problems. They take up too much space and interfere with too many animal migration paths.

The problems are due to the transmission lines leading back to civilization from the desert. I don't think there were any issues or lawsuits over the generation facilities themselves. Pesky things, wires; wouldn't want some poor tortoise to crawl up a transmission tower and get electrocuted.

Originally Posted by iainhp Separate issue - electric cars. I read an article in today's Parade magazine. The statement in there is that the US is barely making sufficient electricity to meet current demand, and that demand is expected to rise 26% over the next 20 years. It also suggest that the Northeast and parts of the West will start to suffer from power shortages within 2 years.

Here in California we've been skating on thin ice for some time. Fortunately the dot com implosion and now housing bust have taken the edge off demand. More critical, though, is the lack of grid infrastructure - if you look back through time at major regional blackouts the main issue is transmission. Typically we'll overload the main paths going up into the Pacific Northwest in the summer when it gets really hot (remember, transmission lines droop when they get hot, too, tending cause failures, and warm materials aren't as good conductors as cold) or the main path between Central Cal and SoCal. Oh, yeah, and not unusually some of these lines have to shut down due to wildfires.

Oh, and just remember, the past few years when we've flirted with blackouts due to lack of generation capacity, one of the most commonly heard ideas is to use car engines as generators. For hybrids with more efficient generators this isn't such a bad idea - when grid demand is low overnight, charge their batteries. When they're parked during the day you can still charge them, but if demand goes high, stop charging and start the gas engine to begin feeding current back onto the grid. In essence they amount to hundreds of thousands of peak generators.

[82-T/A]

Originally Posted by sahein Not at all. You are totally misrepresenting my statements. I don't know why you have to resort to such tactics instead of having valid points and facts of your own.

I'm not resorting to tactics, I'm asking you a question.


Are you suggesting that eliminating our need for foreign oil is justification for the US Government to usurp control of private industry in order to control it?

YES or NO...

If the answer is no, then tell me what you think the justification is?

[82-T/A]

Originally Posted by iainhp Separate issue - electric cars. I read an article in today's Parade magazine. The statement in there is that the US is barely making sufficient electricity to meet current demand, and that demand is expected to rise 26% over the next 20 years. It also suggest that the Northeast and parts of the West will start to suffer from power shortages within 2 years. I am not about to sit down and do the calculation, but if all the joules of energy used by all the automobiles in the US were suddenly required to come from our power stations, I think that would be a problem. There is no cheap solar out there today either - engineers have been working for years on trying to reduce the cost of photo voltaic cells. Etc.......

The best thing to do, is for people to become "aware" of their utility bills. With electricity, there are a number of ways to reduce the consumption of electricity, which in turn reduce your cost, which in turn leaves you with more money in your pocket, which in turn reduces the demand on the power company.

Of course... (as has happened in my city) when people start to become smarter about their energy and water usage, the power and water company suddenly lose profits, so they raise their rates to compensate.

As it stands though, I would figure that the majority of homes are not energy concious. That helps ME, personally, because it means that the power company is less likely to raise the rates (which means I can continue to reduce mine and pay less), but it also means that we will continue to have a huge demand on power.

It would be in everyone's best interests though to look at their home as an expense, and think of ways to reduce that expense... tackle everything from excessive cable bills, to phone bills.

I JUST discovered that we're paying $83 dollars for our local land line?! We then pay an additional $15 dollars a month for long distance. So in total, we pay almost $100 dollars for long distance and our local phone line.

I discovered that I can get a BARE minimum phone line that gives me unlimited local calling (with all the taxes and crap) and it would cost me about $25 dollars. Then I could switch to PowerPhone or Vonage VOIP for $25 dollars (30 with tax and crap) and have all the same stuff, but now have TWO phone lines.

1 - I now will only pay $50-55 a month instead of $100
2 - I get unlimited long distance to Canada, USA, and South America
3 - I have two phone lines, a VOIP one, and a land line (in case the power goes out from a hurricane).

Little things like this.

Even calling up your cable company and telling them you want to switch and they'll credit you.

I wonder how many of you guys on here have your SAME car insurance company for the past 5-6 years or more? You're idiots if you do... (sorry).

I had Geico insurance for 10 years. Turns out, I was getting raped in the ass. I went to Progressive and they lowered my car insurance by $1,000 a year, with twice the coverage, and twice the benefits. It's not because Progressive is awesome, it's because companies usually screw their long standing customers and give discounts to their new customers.

The same thing goes with power and water.


You can get a 1.28 gpf Eco Toilet from home depot for $130 bucks, that's twice as efficient as the 3.5 gpf that you probably have in your home if it was built before 1992.

Hell, even the Lowes "Titan V" or the "Armageddon" toilet from Home Depot that has a 1.6 gpf is far superior to any toilet made back in the day. I bought the Eljer Titan V from Lowes, and quite honestly... if the entire Miami Dolphins football team took a crap in my toilet (and didn't flush), it could handle it and not get clogged. It's a real nasty thought... but it just shows how superior technology is.

Anyway, I'm totally rambling... and totally off topic... but yeah, GM can go to hell...

[the4x4pig]

Gm has lost me as a customer, as will Chrysler if they continue down the same path. I am just bewildered with the damage that has occurred to this country in just the last few months. Makes you wonder if we will ever recover.

[Carpe Diem]

Originally Posted by Chemist BTW, I don't want the federal government run _any_ business, the automobile industry in particular. [/i]

The federal government can't even run their own business effeciently, or corruption free. Why should any American agree (with their votes) to support any bureaucrat who doesn't object and fight against fed's meddling in private business?

South Carolina's Christopher had it right.

[sahein]

Originally Posted by 82-T/A I'm not resorting to tactics, I'm asking you a question. Are you suggesting that eliminating our need for foreign oil is justification for the US Government to usurp control of private industry in order to control it? YES or NO... If the answer is no, then tell me what you think the justification is?

It is a leading question because you wrongly assume that I believe there is an usurpation. Either yes or no would be incorrect. I am, however, suggesting that the quest for oil in unstable regions results in huge monetary pressure, the results of which are not always favorable or therefore not in our best interest. These huge pressures and demands sometimes result in conflict.

Now it is my turn to question. What evidence or facts do you have that there has been a usurpation by the U.S. Government (We The People), for the illegal control of private industry?

[GS Stage 1]

Originally Posted by 82-T/A Of course... (as has happened in my city) when people start to become smarter about their energy and water usage, the power and water company suddenly lose profits, so they raise their rates to compensate.

There is the systemic problem with government, and why the founding fathers tried their best to keep it as small as possible. Because absolute power corrupts absolutely. As soon as the government entity becomes existent, it will do everything in its power to keep the same level of power.

Unlike the rest of us, when things get tough we down size, conserve, etc; government just makes “adjustments” to its revenue stream to maintain the status quo. I just spent about 2 hours drafting a contesting letter to my local county assessor’s office. They RAISED the “value” of my home by over $30,000 in a DECLINNING MARKET. And this is not a strange situation with some new home that had not been assessed before. They had no reason to do this, other than the county is running out of money. So instead of trimming overhead, services, POWER STRUCTURE, they just “adjust” the housing basis to acquire more revenue to replace everything they have been loosing due to loss of sales tax, real estate tax, DMV tax, etc. This “adjustment” that they made to my home translates into about $300 of additional property tax per year. Take that times 100,000 households in my county and you can see what they are doing. What you have to remember is that government grows on PROJECTED income. So when the housing market shut down, their projections came in light. Imagine if you or I spent money on our “projected” income, how long would we last?

This is at the core of what my fears are with the nationalization of the automotive industry. You have to remember that there are HUNDREDS of new bureaucratic positions that have been created to service the new “government control” being exercised. The same thing with the banking/wall street/insurance industry. These are all new giant jaugurnaught government power structures. Can you really expect any of them to go quietly into the night, after the dust settles?

[sahein]

Originally Posted by GS Stage 1 There is the systemic problem with government, and why the founding fathers tried their best to keep it as small as possible. Because absolute power corrupts absolutely. As soon as the government entity becomes existent, it will do everything in its power to keep the same level of power. Unlike the rest of us, when things get tough we down size, conserve, etc; government just makes “adjustments” to its revenue stream to maintain the status quo. I just spent about 2 hours drafting a contesting letter to my local county assessor’s office. They RAISED the “value” of my home by over $30,000 in a DECLINNING MARKET. And this is not a strange situation with some new home that had not been assessed before. They had no reason to do this, other than the county is running out of money. So instead of trimming overhead, services, POWER STRUCTURE, they just “adjust” the housing basis to acquire more revenue to replace everything they have been loosing due to loss of sales tax, real estate tax, DMV tax, etc. This “adjustment” that they made to my home translates into about $300 of additional property tax per year. Take that times 100,000 households in my county and you can see what they are doing. What you have to remember is that government grows on PROJECTED income. So when the housing market shut down, their projections came in light. Imagine if you or I spent money on our “projected” income, how long would we last? This is at the core of what my fears are with the nationalization of the automotive industry. You have to remember that there are HUNDREDS of new bureaucratic positions that have been created to service the new “government control” being exercised. The same thing with the banking/wall street/insurance industry. These are all new giant jaugurnaught government power structures. Can you really expect any of them to go quietly into the night, after the dust settles?

The government is US "We The People". This is the basis of the Constitution. When you are against the government, you are against yourself. The problem is not the Government, but the abuse thereof.