Wagoner does not get a gold star next to his name for performance and nobody is suggesting as such. He was CEO of GM and served at the pleasure of the board. Yes, he was also chairman of that same board. Some of us who follow corporate governance think that's a conflict of interest, but that's a tangent I don't wish to pursue at this time. The board and its chairman are elected by the shareholders of the company. It is their right and their right only to select the board members who would then choose an executive team. Many certainly were trying to pressure him out for years and others were engaged in proxy battles, yet none were successful since the majority of GM shareholders (by votes/shares) still voted to maintain the status quo.
As for the Fed's new, hands-on approach to fixing companies, have you read the actual terms of the loan? It was posted by SD in this thread as a PDF. It mentions nothing of powers to remove CEOs or other officers. It does, however, make plenty of mention of compensation restrictions, forced divestiture of private aircraft, etc. The other point to note is that part of the deal was for the companies seeking the loan to provide warrants to the government for common stock, exercisable at their request. If you read down through the terms to page 12 you'll see an interesting tidbit:
That's pretty clear that the common stock issued would be non-voting. So what does the new administration do? It's rewriting the rules as it goes and is now talking about taking on common stock in a recapitalized GM and Chrysler in deals outside of the existing terms. These shares then could very well be voting shares, but since all we have are leaks coming out of the auto task force and respective companies, we simply don't know. As previously mentioned, this is an insane situation to be in. Debt itself is never fun to be in, but when the lender moves in and begins to dictate your entire life because you owe them money, that's... wait, didn't we fight a war about this almost 140 years ago?
If there is good faith mutual understanding and it does not violate public policy, and you sign the contract, the contract is binding unless it is breached by the other party or resolved by fulfilling the terms. In this instance, the set terms were to be later negotiable. It is true that the lender has more contract leverage, but that is typically true for any loan. Debt is hell. Maybe some large investors will see the tremendous opportunity and be willing to buy stock at the current $1.81 share.
You hit upon one of my pet peeves. Being in more than one position of power or control should not be permitted in government or publicly traded enterprises because there is a large potential for manipulation and abuse. The board typically appoints, supports, and reviews the performance of the CEO. To be CEO and a board member is beyond belief of reason. It gives too much power and control and is therefore unethical, to say the least, and should not be tolerated. There are currently board members sitting on multiple corporate boards and receiving benefits from each membership. It makes me very suspicious as to why they get selected to be on multiple boards.
Do you believe that there should have been no pressure applied to the CEO of a corporation that lost 95% of its value? Why would applying pressure to succeed be considered as a hostile government takeover in lite of the fact that GM requested the loan and agreed to the terms?
Frank Beckman is another media clown like Rush, has zero credibility and is not a reliable source of factual information.
Why do you keep bringing up Rush Limbaugh? I don't listen to him. You are WORSE than the people you automatically have stereotypes for. You just assume that because my views aren't in alignment with yours, I automatically vote down the line Republican, and go along with everything that any hard-lined Republican agrees with. Yes you do, don't even bother responding saying you don't. I'm not even going to justify your response with answers that I'm not. You're an idiot... yes, that's right.
As for 95%... Wagoner came into the company at the start of a major market decline. I'm not going to say it WAS his fault or it wasn't, but the US government had absolutely NO right to do this. So you know... GM will likely file for bankruptcy as well. And after all is said and done, we will have lost BILLIONS and BILLIONS in taxpayer dollars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sahein
Socialism is brother caring for brother, it is not communism. Remember the song "He ain't heavy, He's my brother? HOLLIES - HE AIN'T HEAVY, HE'S MY BROTHER LYRICS If you don't want socialism, you don't want your social security, medicare, retirement benefits, help from family, etc. A job is also social.
Do you really desire to be anti-social and go it alone with nobody's help? Is this the direction that you want to take the country and the world?
See, this is what it all comes down to. I'm glad you're finally being honest with all of us here. So you fully support socialism. Yes, I'm aware of that song, and I'm also aware of "Sha-la-la-la-la Live for Today". I own a 1973 Volkswagen Bus, and my wife is a hippie, but it doesn't mean we have to be socialists. If you recall, all the people on the communes left to go find jobs.
Honestly, there's really no point in trying to convince you the evils of socialism. So I'll leave you with this... you say Socialism isn't Communism? What is the difference? The difference is that one has a dictator, and the other does not. That means ONE person calls the shots, and everyone else follows. When someone refuses to follow, they use strong-arm tactics. Does any of this sound familiar?
You are SICK... you are sick in the head, and it's absolutely disgusting to me that someone like you would even live in this country. It's people like you that have destroyed the ambition and goals in this country. It's people like you who give everyone a sense that they are automatically entitled to something at birth, rather than work ethic and structure.
I am almost a first generation American. My father was from Holland, and my mother was from Argentina. My grandfather on my mom's side was the only link I have to not being a first generation American. The time and place that my father came from, he learned the value of hard work, honesty, and the virtue of perserverance. That's where I get it from, and I hope to instill these values in my own children. But for a disgusting failure of a human being like you to assume that we're all deserving of the hard work of the few is just utterly ridiculous.
Rot in hell...
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The good news is that with our recently exploded deficits and national debt, our current administration has pretty much killed off the possibility for a long-term, survivable socialist system in this country. I love that irony! LOL
If we want to adopt anything from European Socializm, let's start with the parts where everyone shares the tax burden and deficit spending is not allowed!
We are all socialists and cannot survive without it. This forum is social.
Other than that, you have pretty much the same sentiment as I do except without the hatred.
If we throw out the accepted definitions of and distinctions between "social" and "socialist" you are correct. However, I choose to state that words mean things.
We are indeed social creatures, defined as: "living together or enjoying life in communities or organized groups."
Socialism, however, refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with an egalitarian method of compensation.
It is this second half of the definition with which most of us following/participating in this discussion would have you focus.
I know of NO ONE I have met on this forum, either in person or virtually that would not do his best to help those around her in need, once made aware of the situation, thus serving the greater society. It is another thing altogether for anyone to force me to do so.
My poor words will not change you from being a socialist in the Marxist sense. I understand that. You and I will not agree on basic governmental form, I do not think.
It remains my conviction that Socialist/Marxist governmental forms provide a strong disincentive to flourish, as an "egalitarian method of compensation" means I get paid the same as everyone else, regardless of my level of work.
There is a good (though most likely apocryphal) story of a college professor converting his grading system to socialism. The short version: On the first test, everyone gets the average grade. Those who scored high stop working, as their 90+% scores were only getting them a "B." As a result the average drops. By the end of the course, all fail.
Again, I do not expect to change your mind. I offer you no offense. I pray you take none.
--Chemist
"Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and he disregards the rest." --Paul Simon
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Why do you keep bringing up Rush Limbaugh? I don't listen to him. You are WORSE than the people you automatically have stereotypes for. You just assume that because my views aren't in alignment with yours, I automatically vote down the line Republican, and go along with everything that any hard-lined Republican agrees with. Yes you do, don't even bother responding saying you don't. I'm not even going to justify your response with answers that I'm not. You're an idiot... yes, that's right.
As for 95%... Wagoner came into the company at the start of a major market decline. I'm not going to say it WAS his fault or it wasn't, but the US government had absolutely NO right to do this. So you know... GM will likely file for bankruptcy as well. And after all is said and done, we will have lost BILLIONS and BILLIONS in taxpayer dollars.
See, this is what it all comes down to. I'm glad you're finally being honest with all of us here. So you fully support socialism. Yes, I'm aware of that song, and I'm also aware of "Sha-la-la-la-la Live for Today". I own a 1973 Volkswagen Bus, and my wife is a hippie, but it doesn't mean we have to be socialists. If you recall, all the people on the communes left to go find jobs.
Honestly, there's really no point in trying to convince you the evils of socialism. So I'll leave you with this... you say Socialism isn't Communism? What is the difference? The difference is that one has a dictator, and the other does not. That means ONE person calls the shots, and everyone else follows. When someone refuses to follow, they use strong-arm tactics. Does any of this sound familiar?
You are SICK... you are sick in the head, and it's absolutely disgusting to me that someone like you would even live in this country. It's people like you that have destroyed the ambition and goals in this country. It's people like you who give everyone a sense that they are automatically entitled to something at birth, rather than work ethic and structure.
I am almost a first generation American. My father was from Holland, and my mother was from Argentina. My grandfather on my mom's side was the only link I have to not being a first generation American. The time and place that my father came from, he learned the value of hard work, honesty, and the virtue of perserverance. That's where I get it from, and I hope to instill these values in my own children. But for a disgusting failure of a human being like you to assume that we're all deserving of the hard work of the few is just utterly ridiculous.
Rot in hell...
Rush is not stereotypical.
Any form of government can be corrupted. None are exempt. That is why the US is currently a balanced version of two systems, capitalism and socialism.
I am not a socialist. I am a human individual and an American and the US Constitution is my religion. I try very hard not to have the lack of concern and hatred that you apparently have for others. Your vile insults shine a bright light and illuminate the true inner you.
I have listened to Rush so that I will not be uninformed and can therefore make informed rational decisions. I have decided that I disagree with him for the most part. I am glad that you see the wealth of social humanity provided by your fathers hard work he did to provide for his family. Now you need to follow in his footsteps. I think that he would be ashamed of your lack of understanding and shallow depth of thought to have to result to insults.
I am not a socialist. I am a human individual and an American and the US Constitution is my religion. I try very hard not to have the lack of concern and hatred that you apparently have for others. Your vile insults shine a bright light and illuminate the true inner you.
Sahein, maybe not, but you are a Manipulator.
Most folks here have been expressing legitimate concerns for the policies and direction of our nation in recent months, and how these changes are effecting the future of private enterprise. Which has been pretty much in line with the OP of this thread.
You on the other hand have seem to be motivated by something a little different. At every turn you have posted a "devils advocate" response, which I would normally admire and appreciate. However in your case, instead of adding observations of substance and constructive contribution; you have seemed content to poke and prod via correspondence more indicative of an advanced psychology degree than prose one would expect from an advanced political science and/or economics degree.
And when I called you to the carpet for one such posting in reference to me, I noticed a distinct silence of response. So when you found no "fun" in needling me, you moved on to your next victim.
And that brings us to the task at hand. After successfully antagonizing a fellow forum member to the point where you get the much anticipated emotional response, your opportunity finally arrives: To sit back and toss out your morally superior, egocentric, self gratifying condemnation of your fellow man. If this isn't the definition of Limousine Liberalism, I do not know what is.
If you would like to offer some constructive "devils advocate" responses to the general concerns expressed in this thread, I for one would really look forward to what you have to say. And I do not mean a blanket statement that "socialism is good" or any other political dogma. I mean real historical or current examples of where government control/ownership of the private sector has been beneficial to a society and helped that society to flourish. Examples of continued success of that "great experiment" and the quality of standard of living that the society enjoys. If you are willing to contribute in that way, then I welcome it.
Last edited by GS Stage 1 : 05-05-2009 at 07:25 PM.
Any form of government can be corrupted. None are exempt. That is why the US is currently a balanced version of two systems, capitalism and socialism.
I am not a socialist. I am a human individual and an American and the US Constitution is my religion. I try very hard not to have the lack of concern and hatred that you apparently have for others. Your vile insults shine a bright light and illuminate the true inner you.
I have listened to Rush so that I will not be uninformed and can therefore make informed rational decisions. I have decided that I disagree with him for the most part. I am glad that you see the wealth of social humanity provided by your fathers hard work he did to provide for his family. Now you need to follow in his footsteps. I think that he would be ashamed of your lack of understanding and shallow depth of thought to have to result to insults.
Sure you do... Rush is totally stereotypical. I'm always getting accused of listening to Rush. I've listened to him (for 30 minutes or less) maybe twice in total this year.
It's funny that you mention religion, perhaps you also think that I'm a Christian Coalition Right-Winger too?
What about my father's hard work? I can ask him, he's not dead. I'm only 31 years old. He's absolutely not ashamed of me, quite the contrary, he's absolutely ashamed of what's become of this great country in the past three months.
As I've stated before (which you are OBLIVIOUS to, clearly) that I support helping those who are UNABLE to support themselves. Elderly, children, and people who are disabled. As well as free public education.
That does NOT mean that I'm going to support massive socialism and subsidy to everything in my life.
I'm actually pleased that I resulted in insults... I have to admit, it did make me feel better. Honestly, I have the utmost contemt for anyone who would otherwise attempt to damage this country that my grandfather fought for in WW2, and my uncle in Vietnam. So yeah... my contempt for you remains the same. The ideal situation for me would be that your employer decides that you don't deserve the pay you make, and decides to give it to your co-worker who works only half as hard as you. Maybe that would make you think twice about the cancer you wish for our country?
I've got to be honest, I really don't understand how someone like you could come to "exist". What happened in your childhood that caused you to have these unrealistic views of reality? Did you have a dead-beat dad that didn't work, maybe someone else in your family who didn't feel like working and everyone else had to pick up the slack? Or maybe you feel guilty for your own success and don't know how to give back so you'd rather force other people. I don't know, and frankly I don't care... go to a psychiatrist.
Little bit of advice... if you want to help people, why not help people who don't HAVE a chance... not LAZY people in America that HAVE the chance and just don't feel like working, but maybe help someone who is totally innocent and doesn't HAVE a chance.
I’ve lived in Europe for a few years and I have friends that are new American citizens (formerly British, Turkish, Hungarian, etc…). I know first hand how terrible socialism and communism can be to a country/society. The high tax rates alone are enough to kill you. There’s no way I would pay 60-80% of my income to preserve the pensioners and Govt.-owned corporations. I know people in England that work and make money just based on pride and self-respect when it would actually be more affordable for those individuals to take a Govt. pension rather then pay taxes. Think how depressing that must be.
What’s really terrible is when Obama goes to Europe and says that the US needs to look to Europe since we’ve forgotten that Europe is the world’s leading society: (NYPost 100 mistakes/ 100 days): 100 DAYS, 100 MISTAKES FOR BARACK OBAMA - New York Post
I know people that have specifically left everything to come to America and find success here. It’s completely backwards to look to Europe as an example of how our democratic Govt should change. IMO Obama is nothing more then a successful marketing figure who has been elected on buzz words and the people’s lack of understanding. Not too many of your average US citizens understand The Constitution or how the Fed Govt continues to over step its bounds. There’s going to be hell to pay when the Govt decides the check is due and it’s our responsibility to pay back the US deficit.
I myself am hoping that GM stock is quickly sold for a profit and the Govt. makes back some of our money.
By the way 82T/A, your hot chick pic is worth all that much more nowadays. Thanks for speaking up.
As as an FYI Sahein, generally speaking this isn't a Prius forum. Most of the folks here were part of the 45% of Americans that did not vote for Obama. We make money and have worked hard for our fun cars. We tend to take responisbility for our actions and expect others to do the same. We don't wait for or expect the Govt to fix our problems.
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A good old fashioned knock down, name calling, forum flaming session and I missed it today until now.
Since we are sharing, I wish to offer the following example of a constructive discussion between a liberal and a conservative.
A liberal newsie asked a Marine sniper what he "felt" when he took the life of a poor, misguided terrorist who was not a terrorist by choice but was driven and shaped and molded to become a terrorist by a failed economic and educational system and was only striking back at the evil United States of America who everyone knows is the source of all that is bad in the world today.
The Marine answered "recoil".
I just came out of an exchange with a friend, a fellow conservative, who was wringing her hands over the "lunacy" that is liberalism.
I tried to comfort her by sharing with her that in my experience, liberals are the kind of people that I like to hang out with. They are generally warm and fuzzy, pretty smart, educated and very nice people under almost every situation. Just do not go into discussion of politics or belief systems, or economics or pretty much anything that requires logical thinking as opposed to having warm and fuzzy feelings about things. Conversely I told her that there are few things less fun than having a room full of serious, introverted, logical thinking hard core conservatives. They all share generally the same opinion, each individually is "right" and they really don't care if you feel good about them or not. They care that you understand their rational and the logic used to arrive at the single one truth.
So for all you logical thinkers, the definition of insanity is repeating the same failed experiment while expecting a different out come. Liberals will never yield to logic. Get over it.
And for you warm fuzzy liberals, please resist the temptation to devolve to name calling. We may be "bitter clingers" but calling us such just is a badge of courage to us. Sticks and stones may . .. holds true.
The key to success is not demanding or even hoping for everyone to share a common opinion. The real strength of our country is diversity and respect. Its good to explain your opinion and rational or underlying feelings. Its NOT ok to then beat up on people who do not agree or call them names or label them in an effort to dinigrate them and perforce their opinions. Having your own opinions while respecting the differing opinion of others and accepting it for what it is, uniquely their opinion, is iln the direction of goodness.
So everyone out of your corner and group hug!
Remember, I used to let people shoot at me for a living and now I lurk on the forums.
If there is good faith mutual understanding and it does not violate public policy, and you sign the contract, the contract is binding unless it is breached by the other party or resolved by fulfilling the terms. In this instance, the set terms were to be later negotiable. It is true that the lender has more contract leverage, but that is typically true for any loan. Debt is hell. Maybe some large investors will see the tremendous opportunity and be willing to buy stock at the current $1.81 share.
They did not sign away everything in exchange for the funds. The agreement signed was actually with the previous administration which did a good job of keeping it very fair. However, the following administration decided that it wanted more control and went to work very quickly. This is no different to how the current administration is preventing banks from repaying TARP funds, now. They simply are enjoying having this power far too much and are trying to figure out how to leverage this to implement policy.
As for investors, there is no real reason to invest. If GM goes into bankruptcy the shares will have a value of $0. New equity will be reissued upon emergency from bankruptcy protection. The creditors will be issued much of this equity, including the Feds. While GM entering bankruptcy is not 100% certain, their actions over the next few weeks where they're trying to get bondholders and the Feds to accept new equity in lieu of cash payments will immensely dilute the value of outstanding shares.
Quote:
You hit upon one of my pet peeves. Being in more than one position of power or control should not be permitted in government or publicly traded enterprises because there is a large potential for manipulation and abuse. The board typically appoints, supports, and reviews the performance of the CEO. To be CEO and a board member is beyond belief of reason. It gives too much power and control and is therefore unethical, to say the least, and should not be tolerated. There are currently board members sitting on multiple corporate boards and receiving benefits from each membership. It makes me very suspicious as to why they get selected to be on multiple boards.
And the irony of this is that you have no problem with the government seeing a vacuum and stepping in to take control. You don't see a conflict of interest where the same entity that regulates a company now has a large stake in the same company? The same entity that taxes said company? Functional systems are those built with checks and balances. GM doesn't have any right now and neither does the Federal government. It is bad enough that large government (or quasi-governmental) entities such as CALPERS are heavily invested in private industry and activist shareholders. It's another thing entirely when the government itself is invested and starting to be an activist.
A good old fashioned knock down, name calling, forum flaming session and I missed it today until now.
That's what you get for missing a company meeting, Rob.
This is real interesting. Here is an interview that Tom Lauria did with the evil right wing news agency, Fox News, this morning. At face value it would seem that the hammer was dropped on him, and he is clamming up. But this isn't some ambulance chasing lawyer, this guy is a die hard junk yard dog lawyer with a lot of credentials. Pay close attention to the very end when he says with a smirk on his face "if they keep pressing this, the truth will come out". I smell depositions, and testimonies in front of a judge coming on. And maybe a tape recording of a certain government official? Just me, but if I knew I was going into a loaded meeting with the US Government, I might be inclined to record the conversation. YouTube - ATTY Who Says WH Threatened Chrysler Creditors Wont Say He's NOT Lying!
i'll never buy another GM product as long as the union will have a majority stake in the company. this is going to be a disaster like the teachers union.
GM will build cars no one wants,that are over-priced and when the company doesn't make a profit you know damn well the union workers will not get laid off or take a pay cut,the government will just raise our taxes to pay the bums who got us in this mess in the first place.
welcome to the USSA
They did not sign away everything in exchange for the funds. The agreement signed was actually with the previous administration which did a good job of keeping it very fair. However, the following administration decided that it wanted more control and went to work very quickly. This is no different to how the current administration is preventing banks from repaying TARP funds, now. They simply are enjoying having this power far too much and are trying to figure out how to leverage this to implement policy.
As for investors, there is no real reason to invest. If GM goes into bankruptcy the shares will have a value of $0. New equity will be reissued upon emergency from bankruptcy protection. The creditors will be issued much of this equity, including the Feds. While GM entering bankruptcy is not 100% certain, their actions over the next few weeks where they're trying to get bondholders and the Feds to accept new equity in lieu of cash payments will immensely dilute the value of outstanding shares.
And the irony of this is that you have no problem with the government seeing a vacuum and stepping in to take control. You don't see a conflict of interest where the same entity that regulates a company now has a large stake in the same company? The same entity that taxes said company? Functional systems are those built with checks and balances. GM doesn't have any right now and neither does the Federal government. It is bad enough that large government (or quasi-governmental) entities such as CALPERS are heavily invested in private industry and activist shareholders. It's another thing entirely when the government itself is invested and starting to be an activist.
I question the credibility of the source when I encounter large gaps between articles I read. One of the things that I do is to look for motivations and obvious strong bias. Read the difference between these two following articles and see if you can pick out the obvious bias.
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