Next Solstice CANCELLED?

[Fformula88]

Trust me folks. The car loses money. Always has.

[StevieG]

Originally Posted by JeffInDFW Stevie, have you ever heard ANYWHERE that the Kappas lost $10,000 for each unit sold? I have not, and they have really grabbed hold of that over at GMI as gospel. And yes, the post about the Cobalt SS convertible filling the same hole as the Solstice/Sky just shows how many people on these boards have no clue. There is NO chance in hell that I would have even considered a Solstice if it was based on the Cobalts FRONT WHEEL DRIVE unibody platform instead of the excellent Kappa which has full frame rails and is rear wheel drive. The Kappa platform looks very much like the platform you find under the Corvette. How do you compare that to the Cobalt? Give me a break. They can make a car look good, but if it is a wimpy unibody front wheel drive vehicle, you can forget it.

We agree. But, I know GM loses money on each of the "Halo" Sols and Skys sold. I don't know the exact number and it is hard to pin anyone inside GM down on this exact number, but there is a loss for each kappa sold. That is factual. $10K, says that the GXP would cost around $42K and at that point, GM would have shot itself in the foot. If there is no next gen Kappa, then so be it. I hope to have a CTS-V and a Camaro by then

[bigblau]

IMO, they probably won't need to offer a Kappa if they make the Corvette smaller, lighter and with more engine options ...such as a 300HP DI V6, LS3, LS9, etc.

Corvette sales (which has most potential for making money just because of its brand name) will fill the current Kappa market with lower production costs (1 Production FAB vs. 2 Production FABs) and GM will be on it's way to doing what they are suppose to do, make money so they can keep their best workers designing, engineering, and building better cars.

[perris]

Originally Posted by fformual88 Trust me folks. The car loses money. Always has.

this depends on what figures you are looking at

lutz wanted to use this car as a show piece and that's what it was, it recieved tons and tons of media coverage, look at the show setup alone

if you consider the marketing costs that would amount to the equivilant coverage, I do not believe this car lost money at all

however not factoring that into the equation, ya, the car lost money, but we MUST factor that into the equation

I might add, i believe I read right on this forum that pontiac was the only gm currently turning a profit, the solstice might be one of the reasons this devision has such excellant brand loyalty, I know I gained new respect because of my gxp

I bet if they refined the top, refined the interior, made some cup holders that didn't break, changed the position of the power windows, added that twin gas tank for more space instead of the one in the middle

AND GAVE THAT TUNE

this car would easily command another ten grand and be quite profitable

let's look at the top alone, the top on most of these cars is gonna be replaced, that costs pontiac and it shouldn't have, they needed to design a top that was going to have a service cycle of a few years and they didn't but fix that design and shave 1000 dollars off of the cost to gm this car incurs over time

anyway, I maintain, you do all the things I suggested and this car easily commands another ten grand...easily

[StevieG]

Originally Posted by RADRIV I don't believe that Kappa loses money. Lutz said (after the concept Solstice made it's debut) that the business case could be justified to build the Solstice and make it profitable at $19,995.00....then they added the Sky and then the 2.0 turbos. Plus, the Sky versions that go to Opel and Daewoo are just rebaged and exported (huge profits, ROE). The GXP and Redline sells for $30K+ new and the only difference is an engine w/ a turbo and tires...so they must make money. And the price of the Sol/Sky base models have gone up since we bought the first ones in 2005. So, to make money, GM would have to charge $30K+ to make money on the Sol/Sky line? Yeah, right. The Hydroformed frames are supposed to be faster and cheaper to produce than conventional stamping on low volume cars (Otherwise why would GM move forward with this technology???). The technology is used in their Trucks (and Dodge trucks too) and the Vette among others. So, this is not costly production. The quote that they are largely "Hand Made" is also false. Yes, they have humans doing the welding, but it's highly automated. The Body panels are glued to the frame by a robot. I've been to the plant for the tour....this car does not cost that much to make. The parts are from the GM parts bin from around the world. This car is cheap to make. This article is full of holes....and the gas issue...WTF???? The GXP makes 30mpg+++ I'm sure it could be tuned to make a lot more. Or put that new 1.4L turbo in the Sol and get 43mpg. Relax everyone. GMI isn't the end all. The Coupe is on it's way...if the Kappa wasn't making money, do you think they would spend the money on the Coupe?

Better check that GXP option package again---it offers much more than engine and tires.

[silversolstice]

Originally Posted by bigblau IMO, they probably won't need to offer a Kappa if they make the Corvette smaller, lighter and with more engine options ...such as a 300HP DI V6, LS3, LS9, etc.

Bigblau are you a fan of DI V6's? This is the first I've heard of this.

[StevieG]

Originally Posted by silversolstice Bigblau are you a fan of DI V6's? This is the first I've heard of this.

Brilliant. Gotta go Gotta go gotta go now though.

[bigblau]

Originally Posted by silversolstice Bigblau are you a fan of DI V6's? This is the first I've heard of this.

I was at the Wilmington plant for 2007 & 2008 MECCA tour and it was no secret that Kappa production is to end in Wilmington by 2012 and go to Bowling Green. Whether that means that Corvette will be a Kappa or Kappa will be a Corvette ...who knows? But considering the stricter CAFE rules I think it's a pretty safe guess that a 300HP V6 will be in it.

Solstice/Sky to move to Bowling Green, KY. - GM Inside News Forum

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by bigblau I was at the Wilmington plant for 2007 & 2008 MECCA tour and it was no secret that Kappa production is to end in Wilmington by 2012 and go to Bowling Green. Whether that means that Corvette will be a Kappa or Kappa will be a Corvette ...who knows? But considering the stricter CAFE rules I think it's a pretty safe guess that a 300HP V6 will be in it. Solstice/Sky to move to Bowling Green, KY. - GM Inside News Forum

Corvette and Kappa would not be converging on the same platform. I think the intent of the move was to maximize their overhead investment. One plant and workforce is cheaper than two, and they must feel they can build adequate volumes of both vehicles under one roof. However, with GM's finances the way they are now and the cost to move an assembly line, I would not bet the house that the kappas end up moving. If it is moved, they may just move the tooling and be making the same basic vehicle too.

Also... no plans for a V6 Corvette at this stage. GM doesn't need it anyway. If they sell enough Cruze's and Volts and other efficient vehicles, a relatively low volume Corvette won't kill their CAFE figures. Especially if they can get it's mileage up with the V8. With multi displacement technology, possibly future direct injection, or other advances (flex compression ignition/spark ignition gasoline technology which GM is working on) etc. Anyway, the Vette is low enough volume to not need to hit the cafe figure, and I doubt GM would dilute that brand name with a V6. It would be like the Cadillac Cimeron of Corvettes.

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by perris this depends on what figures you are looking at lutz wanted to use this car as a show piece and that's what it was, it recieved tons and tons of media coverage, look at the show setup alone if you consider the marketing costs that would amount to the equivilant coverage, I do not believe this car lost money at all however not factoring that into the equation, ya, the car lost money, but we MUST factor that into the equation I might add, i believe I read right on this forum that pontiac was the only gm currently turning a profit, the solstice might be one of the reasons this devision has such excellant brand loyalty, I know I gained new respect because of my gxp I bet if they refined the top, refined the interior, made some cup holders that didn't break, changed the position of the power windows, added that twin gas tank for more space instead of the one in the middle AND GAVE THAT TUNE this car would easily command another ten grand and be quite profitable let's look at the top alone, the top on most of these cars is gonna be replaced, that costs pontiac and it shouldn't have, they needed to design a top that was going to have a service cycle of a few years and they didn't but fix that design and shave 1000 dollars off of the cost to gm this car incurs over time anyway, I maintain, you do all the things I suggested and this car easily commands another ten grand...easily

I would agree that the car has far more value to GM than the bottom line. As such, GM management MUST acknowledge that. Also, there is an inherent danger in cancelling the car, in that it creates negative equity for the manufacturer.

The problem is, GM's bean counters don't care about brand equity. They like black ink, and dislike red. Hopefully, individuals like Lutz can overcome the beancounters on occasions like these.

[StevieG]

Originally Posted by Fformula88 Corvette and Kappa would not be converging on the same platform. I think the intent of the move was to maximize their overhead investment. One plant and workforce is cheaper than two, and they must feel they can build adequate volumes of both vehicles under one roof. However, with GM's finances the way they are now and the cost to move an assembly line, I would not bet the house that the kappas end up moving. If it is moved, they may just move the tooling and be making the same basic vehicle too. Also... no plans for a V6 Corvette at this stage. GM doesn't need it anyway. If they sell enough Cruze's and Volts and other efficient vehicles, a relatively low volume Corvette won't kill their CAFE figures. Especially if they can get it's mileage up with the V8. With multi displacement technology, possibly future direct injection, or other advances (flex compression ignition/spark ignition gasoline technology which GM is working on) etc. Anyway, the Vette is low enough volume to not need to hit the cafe figure, and I doubt GM would dilute that brand name with a V6. It would be like the Cadillac Cimeron of Corvettes.

This is a good discussion Fformula88 and I totally agree. GM would be quite unwise to combine the Corvette and Kappas and would be even more unwise to dilute the Corvette brand with someone's wishful thinking on a V-6. If it happens, so be it. But I think the V-6 in a kappa or Corvette is not gonna happen.

[Fformula88]

Your spot on. At this point, there is not going to be a DI V6 in the kappa, nor are there plans or efforts to put it in the Corvette. Anything can happen, but neither are on the boards now...

Now, for fear we turn this into another long V6 in a kappa thread, lets try to remain focused on the more immediate future of the kappa, and whether it will see it's way to a second generation in order to have a shot at more engine choices.

My $.02. If we end up getting a kappa II, I would think it would be more likely that we see more engines on the ultra efficiency side rather than increased performance. Maybe the upcoming 1.4L DI turbo I4 for a 40+ MPG Sol... maybe a future I4 diesel with big torque and big MPG numbers. If it weren't for lack of space, I could see a future plug in hybrid in the cards, but they would have to come up with a lot better packaging for batteries. Something only really major investment in re engineering the platform would need.

Also in this discussion, nothing has been mentioned of looks either. The Sol was a showcar, with a specific look harking back on Jag E types... where do you go with this styling stay true to the showcar which got this car produced, and yet update it to be new and exciting. Although it is not a specific retro car, it has some retro queues, and automakers seem to have trouble at delivering a second version of retro inspired designs.

[Craig Lewis]

I consider the car a success if for only it's halo car position. The car gave GM and Pontiac some street cred. A glow they can bask in for a little while. Hopefully the fast G8 will keep the fire burning.

It seems to me that the complexity of the GXP might rival in cost to that of a Vette's. Especially when considering economy of scale.

I believe the platform makes sence as a comuter car. Selling the idea that people don't need a tank for a daily driver will be the tough one. You just never know when a spontanious act of furniture shopping will occur.

[silversolstice]

Back to my concern about the lack of parts. With the difficulty to build and expense of the hydro forming tools, do you think it is possible that in 10 years we will be replacing body panels with fiberglass/plastic pieces?

We might have to pool our pennies and buy any kappa 1 tooling dyes from GM.

[achieftain]

Corvette continues to move upscale as it has for the last several decades, ever since C4. There was a time, kiddies, when the Corvette was affordable as a second or third vehicle for a "family" man, comparable in both price and performance to the Mustang and the T-bird before it. The Kappacars are about as close to the original C1 and C2 as a person could get with the governnment alphabet soup looking over your shoulder. Sure they lose money per unit and that may even have been factored into the beginning. But what they did not factor in was the total average cost per unit of recall and warranty. Losing $ by design is one thing but having to throw possibly $$$$$ after the fact through now 100,000 miles is enough to make the beancounters cry enough is enough.