Next Solstice CANCELLED?

[Envious06]

Originally Posted by perris I will ask again, why a v6 when the straight is a smoother better engine, why do you think the v configuration is a better choice then the straight?

Originally Posted by brentil I don't see how a version that would cost more money, weigh more, and get worse fuel economy would have created a 'sales surge' compared to the Coupe which will appeal to far more people who need that type of functionality. Especially in this current failing economy and fuel minded car purchases. Designing the Coupe also was far cheaper and quicker than designing for a V6. The entire engine bay would have needed to be redesigned alone with the structure as well. It would have been a massive undertaking to do, pretty much a Kappa II in essence.

With todays technology,why do you think the 4 is any smoother than the 6? It appears that neither of you fellas has ever done an engine swap before. If I had one of those Caddy engines with computer in crate, I would have it installed in my Sol in less than a month. Brentil, have you ever heard the word "fabrication" before. Maybe you should ask Chuck Mallett about it. The V6 can be mounted back by the firewall, is hardly any heavier than the stock engine will not affect the cars handling and would not require a "massive undertaking" to do. The engine already gets decent fuel economy in a 3800 lb car. When installed in a 2800 lb car I'm sure it will be even better. The V6 would not be any more expensive than the way over done turbo on the GXP. The Coupe has no more room and is no more functional than the convertible except it is uglier, looks like a scaled down Chrysler Crossfire and will not sell. It will prove to be a total waste of time and will surely drag the car to its death as GM will have to sell them all at a huge discount just to get rid of them.

[StevieG]

Originally Posted by Envious06 With todays technology,why do you think the 4 is any smoother than the 6. It appears that neither of you fellas has ever done an engine swap before. If I had one of those Caddy engines with computer in crate, I would have it installed in my Sol in less than a month. Brentil, have you ever heard the word "fabrication" before. Maybe you should ask Chuck Mallett about it. The V6 can be mounted back by the firewall, is hardly any heavier than the stock engine will not affect the cars handling and would not require a "massive undertaking" to do. The engine already gets decent fuel economy in a 3800 lb car. When installed in a 2800 lb car I'm sure it will be even better. The V6 would not be anymore expensive than the way over done turbo on the GXP. The Coupe has no more room and is no more functional than the convertible except it is uglier, looks like a scaled down Chrysler Crossfire and will not sell. It will prove to be a total waste of time and will surely drag the car to its death as GM will have to sell them all at a huge discount just to get rid of them.

Wow, when you speak it like that then the response has to be---go buy a crate motor and buy a computer and all the wiring from a scrapyard. Surely, you can find one in the scrapyards. Do the swap yourself and let a few of us in on that awesomely smooth DI V-6 power. You might have to do a lot of cutting, a lot of welding, a few frame mods, and hours of work just to shoehorn it in, but then again, determination is key. Good luck.

[Envious06]

Originally Posted by StevieG Wow, when you speak it like that then the response has to be---go buy a crate motor and buy a computer and all the wiring from a scrapyard. Surely, you can find one in the scrapyards. Do the swap yourself and let a few of us in on that awesomely smooth DI V-6 power. You might have to do a lot of cutting, a lot of welding, a few frame mods, and hours of work just to shoehorn it in, but then again, determination is key. Good luck.

I don't think any have shown up in the scrap yard yet, but I'm looking. A talented fabricator such as myself with more than 15 swaps under my belt, this will be no different. Man, open your mind...Theres guys putting in V8's in with no problems, a little expensive, yes. I would not go that route because I think the V8 would affect handling to a level where you would have to make changes to the suspension. On the other hand, the V6 would go in with minimal changes barring motor mounts and a shortened driveshaft. Standard or auto trans would work, (computers would have to match) rear end could remain the same. Shoehorning, I think not. This V6 is compact, all aluminum and doesn't need all that turbo baloney to make good power. Once the aftermarket starts making parts for it, the skys the limit. Meanwhile, every mod you put on a GXP is just bringing you closer to destruction. Maybe I should build one, after all you detractors see how well it runs you'll all want one. Maybe I could start my own business, retire early. Yeah...Thats the ticket !

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by Envious06 With todays technology,why do you think the 4 is any smoother than the 6. It appears that neither of you fellas has ever done an engine swap before. If I had one of those Caddy engines with computer in crate, I would have it installed in my Sol in less than a month. Brentil, have you ever heard the word "fabrication" before. Maybe you should ask Chuck Mallett about it. The V6 can be mounted back by the firewall, is hardly any heavier than the stock engine will not affect the cars handling and would not require a "massive undertaking" to do. The engine already gets decent fuel economy in a 3800 lb car. When installed in a 2800 lb car I'm sure it will be even better. The V6 would not be anymore expensive than the way over done turbo on the GXP. The Coupe has no more room and is no more functional than the convertible except it is uglier, looks like a scaled down Chrysler Crossfire and will not sell. It will prove to be a total waste of time and will surely drag the car to its death as GM will have to sell them all at a huge discount just to get rid of them.

GM would not... and I cannot stress this... would not put out the Mallett V8 car as a production car and attach a warranty to it. The underhood distances and tolerances are far too close, increasing the likelihood for problems down the road. Also, at least on his initial cars, Mallett was removing some of the vehicle's structure to fit that V8, which creates a question on rigidity and crash worthiness.

Now, I am not attacking the Mallets. The point it, GM needs a vehicle to meet a number of criteria for safety and longevity concerns which an engine swapper doesn't necessarily need to meet.

Just because an engine can physically fit, doesn't mean that a corporation feels they can do it and feel good about slapping on that 3/36 and 5/100 warranty.

Taste in looks is very subjective. Don't like them and that is fine. There are a LOT of people who thinks it looks great. Enough so that I think the car will generally be regarded as a good looking car. Does that mean it will sell? Who knows.

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by Envious06 I don't think any have shown up in the scrap yard yet, but I'm looking. A talented fabricator such as myself with more than 15 swaps under my belt, this will be no different. Man, open your mind...Theres guys putting in V8's in with no problems, a little expensive, yes. I would not go that route because I think the V8 would affect handling to a level where you would have to make changes to the suspension. On the other hand, the V6 would go in with minimal changes barring motor mounts and a shortened driveshaft. Standard or auto trans would work, (computers would have to match) rear end could remain the same. Shoehorning, I think not. This V6 is compact, all aluminum and doesn't need all that turbo baloney to make good power. Once the aftermarket starts making parts for it, the skys the limit. Meanwhile, every mod you put on a GXP is just bringing you closer to destruction. Maybe I should build one, after all you detractors see how well it runs you'll all want one. Maybe I could start my own business, retire early. Yeah...Thats the ticket !

Then go build one and enjoy. Not everyone has the time, skill, and/or money to buy a new, or relatively new car and swap in a completely different engine or drivetrain. If ya got the talent and resources, knock yourself out! I bet the project is as fun as the finished product!

Just remember, an auto manufacturer has many more concerns and constraints than a fabricator doing his own thing.

[Envious06]

Originally Posted by Fformula88 Then go build one and enjoy. Not everyone has the time, skill, and/or money to buy a new, or relatively new car and swap in a completely different engine or drivetrain. If ya got the talent and resources, knock yourself out! I bet the project is as fun as the finished product! Just remember, an auto manufacturer has many more concerns and constraints than a fabricator doing his own thing.

I'm well aware of the fact that my factory warranty would no longer be valid. But you hit the nail on the head. Half the fun is building something nobody else has, enjoying it and being able to honestly tell people that you built it. As I stated earlier, I don't expect to find what I want affordably in a scrap yard for a few years. Till then I will enjoy my car as is (no problem with that) until the majority of the waranties have expired. Comes the time that I get the right engine deal combined with boredom of lack of power. I will do it...

[bradsol]

Yep, I heard recently that this was going to be the case. Keep your cars in good shape...they will be collector items in the future.

[66cat389]

Good. Let GM kill the Solstice and Sky. With their styling and their unique frame I wouldn't be surprised to see them going for a hefty price at a Barrett Jackson auction in 2048. I might be biased, but these two cars have classic written all over them as far as I am concerned.

Imagine how much the GXP coupe will be worth? Just a two or three year run?

Of course, the interiors are so cheaply made I find it hard to believe that they loose 10,000 on the car for every sale.

Unless the cost of plastic has sky rocketed?

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by 66cat389 Good. Let GM kill the Solstice and Sky. With their styling and their unique frame I wouldn't be surprised to see them going for a hefty price at a Barrett Jackson auction in 2048. I might be biased, but these two cars have classic written all over them as far as I am concerned. Imagine how much the GXP coupe will be worth? Just a two or three year run? Of course, the interiors are so cheaply made I find it hard to believe that they loose 10,000 on the car for every sale. Unless the cost of plastic has sky rocketed?

Materials and labor are only a fraction of the cost. There are other expenses, be they R&D, tooling, administrative, marketing, etc., that must also be amortized over each unit built. Each pre-production car has a cost. Each auto show has a cost. Each mockup has a cost. Each recall has a cost. I'm sure you understand. Of course, there could also be financial magic involved, especially with marketing expenses (e.g. put a Solstice in a general GM or Pontiac ad and attribute the ad costs to the Solstice program), but I would doubt that.

Also, are you certain it will be remembered as a classic? Becoming a classic doesn't really require a good or even decent car, it just requires nostalgia and the car acts as a trigger. I'm not so sure many people will look back on these days, especially given GM's struggle, as a nostalgic time.

[bigblau]

IMO it doesn’t help the bottom line when you have a $32,000 sticker price GXPs sitting on dealer lots for months during the summer season and have to basically offer a $4,000 plus rebate under the name of employee pricing just to get them out the door. I think the base Solstice seems to sell much better because that was the market the Solstice was intended for.

IMO, with sticker prices of $32,000 customers expect more. My salesman and I knew that I didn’t need to drive a Turbo GXP to know that I would not be happy with one. But I did drive one because some people on this forum insisted on it. Well after driving it I can tell you that it’s even worse then I imagined and there is no way on earth that I would ever pay $32,000 for it. I also know that I would be more then happy to purchase a Solstice Coupe with a 300HP DI V6 for $34,000. I’m just a consumer and I know what I want and no one is going to stuff a GXP Turbo down my throat.

Face it, the auto industry is hurting right now –some are hurting more then others. There are many reasons. I like GM but they need to seriously focus on a strategy of connecting with its customers and increase its competitiveness. The Solstice was a great effort in doing that. But the days when you can put out a product and just sit on it for five are six years without legitimately improving its offerings are over. The Coupe is a great example of what is needed to continue that strategy but they also need to up the challenge with more drivetrain and other quality options. Like I said, just my opinion. I also hate to see the demise of the Solstice.

[MomsSol]

This thread has been gleaned of all OFF TOPIC discussion of previous CLOSED threads and also those posts that contained personal attacks of any degree.

It is time for this childishness to STOP!!! The membership is tired of it and it is accomplishing NOTHING!!

Please return this thread to its TOPIC - TY!

[WWI Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by silversolstice Five model years? Who had 5 years in the pool when everyone was comparing it to the Fiero? I love my car and I would hope they would continue to make them for years to come, but I am more concerned with what happens to the cost of maintaining my ride once it becomes an orphan? Think about how easy it is to restore a chevelle compared to a javelin?

Amen. My '73 AMX has to have parts fabricated sometimes because it is actually impossible to find some parts. Not a figure of speech...actually impossible. When I got the suspension redone, and I got some nice stiff shocks for it I was happy to find them...especially when I was told that "this is the last lot of 50 in the world".

[Fformula88]

For those who discount the potential losses, lets examine some figures...

Paying the people at the plant: Say GM runs 3 shifts at the plant which they were doing until earlier this year. That is a ton of payroll per year. A similar sized plant here, the GM Tonawanda engine plant, has an estimated total payroll and benefits cost of about $250 million per year for 1850 hourly and salaried workers. (Source Gms New Diesel Line to be Built in Tonawanda Engine Plant. I think Wilmington's employment was a bit below that... so lets say they spend $200 million. Also, lets say GM builds about 40,000 kappas per year. That means, their payroll costs PER CAR is about $5000. That is before R&D, before buying materials, etc. A normal plant making 250,000 cars per year would have a payroll cost of about $800 per car. The payroll costs alone are a huge junk of change on this car vs a normal product.

Next, lets look at R&D. A normal new car these days costs more than a billion to develop from scratch. I do not believe the Solstice cost that much, which was part of their cost savings measures. Lets say it cost half, $500 million (not counting the coupe). Lets also say they plan 6 years of production into that figure, 240,000 total units. That leaves a cost per unit of $2083 over the six year lifespan. A normal vehicle at a cost of $1 billion and 1.5 mil. units produced would amortize out the development costs at about $670 per unit.

From these very rough and rudimentary estimates, the kappa would cost $7083 in development and labor, vs $1470 for a typical platform. That is one heck of a difference at this price point. However, it is a fact of life with a low volume roadster, where the economies of scale just are not on your side.

Those are just two items too, with many others. Extra R&D time for things like the torque bar, redesigning the rear diffs to prevent leaks, simply paying for all hose warranty items and the labor to fix them (rear diffs, door handles, bad shocks early on, etc). It all adds up. Then there is the cost of materials (Steel is over $1000 a ton now, more than double than a year ago).

Yet, GM has been holding the line for the most part on MSRP. Yes, it is higher, but so is the standard equipment on base level vehicles, which makes up for the increase.

Low volume roadsters are just hard to make money on, and the difficulty increases exponentially as volumes go lower.

[66cat389]

Originally Posted by Snugglebear Also, are you certain it will be remembered as a classic? Becoming a classic doesn't really require a good or even decent car, it just requires nostalgia and the car acts as a trigger. I'm not so sure many people will look back on these days, especially given GM's struggle, as a nostalgic time.

I am fairly certain it will. If you look at the kids who stare at our cars those will be the adults that buy the car when it is a classic. I am certain that most GTO owners looked at that car as kids in the 60's and said "one day I will own that car!"

And, If you couple that with owners that at one time owned the car and lost it for what ever reason and will seek to buy one again. Then you have a very good combination. I'm not saying that this is set in stone, and it is admittedly speculation on my part. But if you look at the past and apply it to the future it is entirely possible that the Solstice / Sky will belong to that group of sought after collector cars. Even more so if GM kills the car off.

I understand how and why GM loses money on some cars more than others. But I just couldn't resist taking a shot at the interior quality of the car. If GM needs to cut the car to save itself, then so be it.

[POTFH]

I have found this very interesting reading. I have a couple questions which I know can not be answered here with any certainty. If the Solstice is gone in 2011 does that mean the last product run is ending say June of 2010 or is it June of 2011. I quess just trying to figure out what the last production year may be.

From the start I have always planned on keeping our 1K, 507. She only has about 15500 miles. I love driving her and it does not see winter or bad weather. It is my way to relax. I have said to the wife my next every day drive will be a GXP, she just gives me those wife type looks. When I showed her this thread her only question to me was when are you going to by your GXP? She also just said we are at the stage in life to do what makes us happy and this she knows will make me very happy.

Note to GM marketing, maybe allow us 1k owners the chance to buy one with a special serial number, say last 1000 number 507.