Well, I'm trading in my Solstice this weekend...

[SmokinSolstice]

Originally Posted by GreyFox Come on! The guy is just stating his dissatisfaction with what he sees as an attempt at "state control"...rather than "we the people". Not such an outrageous comparison at all. Before that...he decided to get a more practical vehicle to transport his family. Now there are those slamming him and trying to dissect the exact meaning of words...even resorting to online encyclopedias..jeesh! Give the guy a break. I might not agree totally with his conclusions..but I do understand his point.

My point! Also too many newbies on here who dont know him. He is a decent guy.

[prattm]

Originally Posted by Envious06 ...I'll miss your avatar !

I second that on the avatar......and before it's too late to ask, who is she?

[perris]

Originally Posted by tenwatt umm socialism and democracy are not mutually exclusive. Socialism is an economic theory. It's not the opposite of a Democracy which is a form of government. .

yup

your post is spot on but I see people responded to your precise observation

I can't stand it when someone tries to make their (usually incorrect) politica points on the main board, whether I agree or disagree, I believe politics should be discussed in an area where people want to discuss their views, not on these threads where their is an unfounded political view that begs discussion even though we would rather not

but for those who don't understand that they are being manipulated by corporate propaganda when they claim "we are turning into a socialsist government, this is for you;

the roads you drive are tax payer funded and socialism, the water to your house uses government owned roads and socialsims, as does the electricity

the bridges and tunnels, socialism, clean air is socialism, safe airways for planes is socialism, the police dept is socialism, the fire dept is socialism

the very concept of a monetary system is a tax funded government run program

that's right, money is socialism

yet these idiots on the teevee that know how to emflame the ignorant use the word like it's some kind of perjurative

without socialism maybe 10 percent of those very people who think socialism is bad would have an education and those same people wouldn't have been able to afford the car they drive right now

the armed forces are a social project for those of you who think you don't like socialism, and the fact that you own your house relies on a set of rules and regulations that are tax funded and socially driven

if there were only two people on this planet, you and your wife, you would STILL have socialism

there are good forms of socialism and forms that are bad

when private industry is still allowed to compete with a government service, then that is almost always a benificial social project keeping private industry competitive, for instance you don't have to use the police, if you think you hate socialism you can hire your own private security guard since you hate socialism so much

I wonder how many roads people could drive their solstice with the top down if not for the road system, which is of course socialism

jeeze, the political ignorance on this board is breathtaking but your post at least gave me hope tenwatt

when private industry is not allowed to compete, that's usually the perjurative form of the word "socialism" and when we are given equal compensation for more work that is the perjurative form of the word

however when we are compensated a comenserate differance for more work, then even though it's a social project tax funded, it is not the perjurative form of the word

gm is not turning socialist, they are getting loans backed by assets worth more then the loan

this is called "A LOAN"

now the banks are another story, they were given billions of dollars as a gift to fund their gambling debts, dollars backed by NOTHING, this is NOT a loan it's my money being given to the very people who stole that money in the first place

gm was forced into bankruptcy by those politicians who want to break their union, that's the only reason they were forced into bankruptcy

the banks were given money for the purpose of giving viable loans as they always did but they refused using that money for loans, they instead wanted to us it to fund their gambling debt.

this "government take over of gm" is a rediculous claim, gm took out a loan and for that loan they were told they need to restructure

so there's the economy/history/politics lesson for those who buy into all the crap on corporate owned concervative media and then I retire from this thread

you guys, and I blame the original poster need to keep politics off the main board

the original poster had to sell his car in order to be a responsible parent, yet for some reason he wanted to make a political statement concerning gm

and ps;

the auto industry of every country that imports their cars to these states are in fact government subsidized by their respective government

for those of you that think our auto industry can't compete and just in case your didn't know it

I can't stand politics on my auto board and will not hold court fielding political diatribe, I retire from this thread

[rob the elder]

"I retire from this thread"

All I can say is, thankyou.

Personally I have no clue what you are trying to say.

[82-T/A]

Originally Posted by Small Dealer So if General Motors had swapped $40 Billion Dollars of crushing debt that they could not repay to the private sector with $40 Billion Dollars of crushing debt that they could not repay to the government, they would have been able to statisfy your recent dislike of automobile manufacturers with government ownership stakes but not ones that support it, and kept you as an owner?

Look, this isn't any more painful for a consumer than it is for me. GM was the root of all of my hobbies, but I simply cannot stand by while our government nationalizes the utmost icon of America. I mean, to me, this is like selling the USS Missouri to Royal Carribian and converting it into a cruise ship.

Here are the "FACTS"... GM was going to file for bankrupty protection REGARDLESS of whether or not the Auto Task Force stepped in or not. In either situation, they would have gone in under Chapter 11 restructuring. I don't necessarily have a problem with a loan, as Chrysler was able to pull it off a couple of decades ago and completely pay it off. However, in this situation, the only purpose of the "loan" was for the government to take ownership of the company. There was NO debt for equity swap back when Reagan did it. Not only did they file for bankruptcy, but Obama KNEW that they would be filing for bankruptcy. that was his plan all along, so why did he give them the money ANYWAY? It was to pay-off the unions. As far as the unions go, I don't have a problem with the workers, I can't blame someone for wanting to make as much as they can, especially when it's offered to them. I blame the UAW management with their corporate jets, their 300 milllion dollar fancy Golf Resort in black lake, their theme parks, their lavish parties, etc... very aristocratic. I also blame GM management for signing those contracts.

Either way, GM COULD have gone into bankruptcy by itself, and it would come out a stronger and leaner company... and likely they would still have Pontiac. They would have broken their hold from the UAW and been allowed to build factories in right to work states.

The situation we are in now is no different than it was 6 months ago, except that the taxpayers are now in the hole some additional 80 billion dollars.

But no, it wouldn't have kept me from keeping my Solstice, but it WOULD have caused me to look for a GM vehicle instead of the Ford Exploder. I have almost $3,000 in GM card dollars, as well as the customer loyalty money. I could have just as easily bought an Acadia, or an Outlook, or a Trailblazer... but simply WILL NOT participate in the bastardization of corporate America, and the sanctity of our Democracy. A man that has no values or virtues, is no man at all.

Originally Posted by retriever Here Here SM Sounds like another Benedict Arnold , Kick em when there Down Keep buying Foreign Imports that will teach the United States of America and there goverment ?

Umm, I'm buying a Ford. The only car I own that's an import is my 73 Volkswagen Bus.

Originally Posted by SmokinSolstice Wow you too! I keep seeing alot of us old timers on here getting rid of the solstice for something new now. I can name off a few already. I too sold the solstice for a F-150, basically I wanted more room after three years with the sol as my only car. Also I wanted 4x4 for the snow. Stick around, you are one of the best and I gained valuable info from you over the years as well. Remember those header problems? Now I see so many new people on here I don't even know! I pop in from time to time now as well.

I really do appreciate that, it does mean a lot. I will stick around. I probably will buy another one, one of these days, but I think this time I might go with a Turbo. It'll be many years from now, but I'll probably be back in the seat of one. What I really liked about this car is that it reminds me VERY much of my Porsche 944 that I sold a couple of years ago. I don't know exactly what it was, but the handling was VERY similar. It just rode and felt very similar. The Porsche 944's power was rather linear, while the Solstice's was a bit more "up top", but they both rode very similarly, which is a GREAT tribute to the Solstice considering the 944 was said to be one of the best handling cars ever made, and the Solstice was still quicker!!!

Yeah, I finally fixed the header problem. I bought a set of ARP bolts with eye-holes in the top of the bolt head. I then bought safety wire and threaded it around itself to prevent the bolt from backing up. I forget who I talked to, but a shop said they measured temperatures at WOT from the Solstice with the header and cat combo that exceeded 1000 degrees and that most certainly was the cause of the failed copper gaskets. With the constant thermal expansion, it would back the studs or nuts off just enough to allow a little bit of exhaust gases out after a while. It was just enough to cook the gasket. Anyway, after using those new bolts and the safety wire, I never had another problem.

If anyone is having problems, let me know and I'll post the ARP part number, but I believe I made a post on it a while back.

Originally Posted by turboman808 And once again this is not a democracy and I wish people would get it thru their heads. This is a republic. If you do not know the difference I feel sorry for you. First step in getting this country back on track is to have a f*cking clue what kind of government we have. Honestly makes you and your long winded post look terribly stupid.

Well, it is actually. I often refer to our government as a republic, but most people don't know what that it is. But, being a republic does not necessarily mean that it's NOT a Democracy, or that it's not communist. A republic merely defines the setup of a city-state-federal configuration. What we have is technically a Democratic Republic. You could just as easily have a Socialist Republic, or a Communist Republic, it doesn't matter either way because of all of those forms of government can still have a Senate or a Parlament. I think you need to do a bit more reading before you're ready for omnipotence.

Originally Posted by PURE_Fun Well you will be really missed, you and I have pretty much the same setup and both received ours cars about the same time. You will be missed. Just remember FORD = fix or repair daily

Yeah, I've actually had pretty good experience with the modular engines. I have a 2002 Crown Victoria that I've had since 2004 and it's been extremely reliable. I'll stick around from time to time and share my experience with newbies, and maybe learn some more stuff myself...

Originally Posted by RevmanII See ... there's your problem. The Solstice does not make a good "only" car . 82-T/A, sorry to here you're getting rid of your Solstice. I can understand your love for the Fiero, had 4 of them myself in various forms .

Well, my wife has a 2008 Jeep Patriot, and I've also got my Crown Victoria, but I just need something that's more practical for this time in my life. I do still have my Fiero, and I'll never get rid of it. It was my FIRST car...

After this weekend though, it'll be my ONLY GM car...

Originally Posted by kennysabarese Yeah, sell your car! That will really teach GM a lesson! Only person you are punishing is yourself by being stuck with that truck. Just because a bunch of suits f'd up the company doesn't mean you need to put yourself through the pain of a Ford Exploder. Enjoy, you will miss the car, but it won't miss you.

Well, I need a different car anyway, but GM is losing my business since I'm buying my new vehicle from Ford, rather than a GMC or Chevy.

Honestly, without Pontiac, I really don't have very much interest in General Motors anyway... I mean, short of classic vehicles... the interest just isn't there for me...

Originally Posted by perris yup the roads you drive are tax payer funded and socialism, the water to your house uses government owned roads and socialsims, as does the electricity the bridges and tunnels, socialism, clean air is socialism, safe airways for planes is socialism, the police dept is socialism, the fire dept is socialism the very concept of a monetary system is a tax funded government run program that's right, money is socialism yet these idiots on the teevee that know how to emflame the ignorant use the word like it's some kind of perjurative without socialism maybe 10 percent of those very people who think socialism is bad would have an education and those same people wouldn't have been able to afford the car they drive right now the armed forces are a social project for those of you who think you don't like socialism, and the fact that you own your house relies on a set of rules and regulations that are tax funded and socially driven

Here is the difference, everything you listed above was VOTED ON, and approved by our House and Senate, both at the Federal level and the local level. I don't EVER remember seeing the house or senate vote for a "debt to equity swap". They voted to allow money for a bail-out, but not for Government ownership... that was exclusive to the Car Czar. All of these appointed positions by the administration are nothing more than means to circumvent the regulating power of the United States Senate and House of Representatives. I guarantee to you that had this notion hit the House and Senate, that the debt to equity would never have passed.

Education, Public Works, Military, it's all voted on in a budget that gets passed in the House and the Senate...

Originally Posted by perris yup this "government take over of gm" is a rediculous claim, gm took out a loan and for that loan they were told they need to restructure

I don't really know how best to respond to this, but I'm guessing maybe you weren't aware of the debt to equity swap? It's not a LOAN anymore. As I said, I don't have a problem with a loan since Chrysler was able to repay it many years ago. This is an actual debt to equity swap, meaning the US government has ownership of the company. BEFORE GM filed for bankruptcy, General Motors OWNED 50% of the company. That is FACT, that is not made up numbers. Now that they are in restructuring, the US Government is BIDDING for much of the remaining ownership (against other corporations). When the dust settles, the US government is expected to own in excess of 70% of the company. The actual STOCK that will be made available to the stock exchange will be less than 1% of the total ownership of the company.

.

[rob the elder]

T/A, I for one will miss your presence on the forum. That avatar . .. I mean really!

Having been a "Ford" guy for 35 years, welcome to the Blue Oval.

My experience is that GM, Ford and Chrysler all try to make vehicles that people want to buy. They get into trouble when they build too many and people do not buy all of them, or they build cars that people will NOT buy.


Or as in our current situation, when the money supply dries up so people can not get financing to allow them to buy vhicles that they do want to buy but lack the cash in hand to do so.

My reading leads me to believe that the major problems that the big 3 are undergoing is more tied to government regulation that has forced upon them design and product decisions that left them more vulnerable to competition. At the same time, foreign makers were bringing product to this shore that was very competitive and attractive. So the big 3 started to loose market share.

It became popular for print media and to a lessor extent electronic media to state that the primary reason that the foreign manufacturers were being so successful at capturing market share was due to their relatively better quality of build. Some of this was true but it became so much a part of the discussion that it became a "fact" that could not be changed, even when the big 3 significantly raised their own quality standards.

An example is Hundai which has consistently had quality at or higher than Japanese builders yet has had a very uphill battle trying to capture market share here. They are better built but no one cares enough to actually buy one.

So while there is plenty of blame to go around, to a large extent the current disasterous situation that the big 3 find themselves in is a result of other market forces at play. Like the housing boom and bust. Too many bad loans made based on government mandates or direction. Lots of factors.

Blaming GM for all its problems seems to me to be a phyric victory. The guys who worked for GM and got GM into its current straits are to a great extent long gone. The profitability / quality issues started decades ago and those people are either long retired or in the ground.

I believe that in their fight for market share, GM made a lot of bad investments, failed to recognize the changing market situation and over extended certainly. They made themselves vulnerable to this downturn caused by others and are suffering the consequences.

But . ..

Yes, there is always a but . ..

Once you bought your car, it was YOUR car. Not GMs. Getting rid of it now does not affect GM in any shape, manner or form. They made what ever profit or loss they were going to make. The car will still exist, if in other hands. Its needs will still exist. Repairs, parts, service will still have to happen. Just not associated with T/A.

To me it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

"The expression has become a blanket term for (often stupid) self-destructive actions motivated purely by anger or desire for revenge. For example, if a man was angered by his wife, he might burn down their house to punish her; however, burning down her house would also mean burning down his, along with all their combustible personal possessions.
"

Or in this case, selling a perfectly good and loved car to "get even" with a car company which could care less and will be unaffected by that act.

Now, I can understand your need for a different type of vehicle and lack of means to retain the Sol, but I beg of you, do not sell your great little car just to beat up on GM.

They do not care.

[82-T/A]

Originally Posted by rob the elder T/A, I for one will miss your presence on the forum. That avatar . .. I mean really! Having been a "Ford" guy for 35 years, welcome to the Blue Oval. My experience is that GM, Ford and Chrysler all try to make vehicles that people want to buy. They get into trouble when they build too many and people do not buy all of them, or they build cars that people will NOT buy. <cut> Now, I can understand your need for a different type of vehicle and lack of means to retain the Sol, but I beg of you, do not sell your great little car just to beat up on GM. They do not care.

I probably didn't make that as clear as I should have. I love my Solstice, but I have to get rid of it because I need something more utilitarian at this point in my life, with that said, my gripe with GM is what is preventing me from buying a GM car as it's replacement. I really do like the Trail-blazers, and some of their other vehicles, but I've been really happy with my Crown Victoria, and I'm willing to give them another go.


I do agree with you about the government regulation, and everything else. It's funny because I'm sure most people would assume that my anger towards all of this is simply because I'm "Republican" and angry at Obama. It's not the case. I blame very much the lost market share on Richard Nixon! Almost all of the Federal emissions standards that were hastily forced on the automotive industry were done so by the Nixon administration.

The 8.5:1 mandatory maximum compression, the smog pumps, the Thermac, the EGR system, catalytic converters... they were all forced on us by Nixon.

Before I get taken out of context, I will be the first to admit that I am a HARD-CORE tree hugger. I won't get into the details, but short of listing all the enhancements I've done to my home, all the fruits and vegetables I grow, my composting bin, my environmental escapades, whatever... I'll just leave it at that for you guys to simply take my word for it.

Many of the things that were forced on the automotive industry mainly hurt the big 4 at the time. Catalytic converters were a JOKE... they were nothing more than charcoal pellet filled steel cages that restricted exhaust flow by up to 50%. The 8.5:1 compression drop cut horsepower by 30% in most engines. Smog pumps failed miserably and just added parasitic draw on the engine. Thermacs and other systems simply restricted air and hurt engine performance.

By the mid 70s, you had vehicles that made 50-60% less horsepower than they did before. The drop in emissions was almost unnoticeable, seriously... and what resulted was a car that had to use TWICE the amount of gasoline in order to produce the exact same results as it's previously displaced counterpart would. The engines were less efficient and therefore used more gas to perform the same tasks. Not only did it hurt fuel economy, but it also seriously compromised the reliability of these vehicles as well.


Imports, well... most of them didn't have to deal with this both because they either were under the production figures, or their engines were small enough that it wasn't a requirement for them. For example, the Volkswagen Bus that I have, didn't come with Catalytic Converters in 1974. They only started putting them on in late 1975. Some Volkswagens didn't come with them until 1977. The other imports were similar...

Anyway, as I said, my big argument is with the nationalization... and that is, the PURCHASING of a corporation by the US government, Debt to Equity swap.

I'm only too happy to go to the Blue Oval.


The best possible outcome for ME with respect to GM would be that GM collapses miserable. It becomes an utmost failure of government policy and people immediately become weary for the next several decades of government ownership of private industry.

Of course, I would want all of the GM assets to be purchased up by entrepreneurs like Penske, everyone would get to keep their jobs, and a new manufacturer is formed. And all of the divisions would continue on as other companies... JUST like Saturn.


EDIT: I kind of didn't finish my thought on that, but I agree with emissions compliancy, but the government should have spent more time. Ceramic catalytic converters that cars come with now are almost immesurably more efficient than the old pellet cats. They HAD this technology back then, but the government didn't spend the extra effort in research or development. They forced these unreliable, and untested technologies on the big 4. A simple ceramic catalytic converter on a 69 Oldsmobile Cutlass 350 would produce twice the power w/ 25% less fuel requirements as a 1975 Oldsmobile Cutlass 350.

[rob the elder]

Well said and I respect you for your decision.

Nothing wrong with tree hugging. As they say, some of my best friends are tree huggers. I have been known to hug a tree from time to time. My favorite tree is my pie cherry tree that I treat like my baby.

And there will always be more Sols out there for you to pick up if / when your situation changes.

You can always come visit mine any time.

[GreyFox]

Originally Posted by perris so there's the economy/history/politics lesson for those who buy into all the crap on corporate owned concervative media and then I retire from this thread I can't stand politics on my auto board and will not hold court fielding political diatribe, I retire from this thread

Now that IS funny!
Especially the elaborate suggestions that we are surely not heading in a new direction(didn't bother to copy)....and that any "Change" is nothing at all to be concerned about....and then the crap lesson....

[prattm]

Okay.....Okay.....Okay.
That's all well and good...........but who is the girl in the avatar?

[StevieG]

Originally Posted by Envious06 Good luck dude...I'll miss your avatar !

totally agree. In fact I was one day hoping to "meet" that avatar

[82-T/A]

Hahah... well, yeah she is pretty hot.

About 3 years ago on here, someone found this T-Shirt company called "Those Shirts"

Those Shirts - Conservative T-Shirts

A bunch of people took some of their shirts as their avatar, and I happened to pick this one. Hah...






This is my wife though...

[GS Stage 1]

Your wife looks damn good in the Solstice, are you really sure you want to let it go?

My concern for Ford is that I fear it to will ultimately fall under the same nationalized ownership as the others. With Uncle Sam giving out huge discounts on the metal, as well as 0% loans from Uncle Sam GMAC financing, to punish Ford for not playing along with the clown car mandate, how can Ford compete? But I am sure that is I just being paranoid again. Just like I was paranoid when I predicted the TARP money getting equity swapped in the first place, first in the Financial Sector and then in Automotive. Both times, all of my associates said I was smoking dope with those predictions.

Take Care and don't be a stranger.

[njtex]

Sorry to lose you 82.

The new Explorers are real nice however, as a fellow VW fan I'd advise you to check out the H3 too before you decide. It's the most Germican vehicle made so far. Drive it and you'll see what I mean, it will also open up a whole new trail riding hobby for you too.

Good Luck!

[82-T/A]

Originally Posted by GS Stage 1 Your wife looks damn good in the Solstice, are you really sure you want to let it go? My concern for Ford is that I fear it to will ultimately fall under the same nationalized ownership as the others. With Uncle Sam giving out huge discounts on the metal, as well as 0% loans from Uncle Sam GMAC financing, to punish Ford for not playing along with the clown car mandate, how can Ford compete? But I am sure that is I just being paranoid again. Just like I was paranoid when I predicted the TARP money getting equity swapped in the first place, first in the Financial Sector and then in Automotive. Both times, all of my associates said I was smoking dope with those predictions. Take Care and don't be a stranger.

Hah, thanks. Yeah, I won't be a stranger.

This was just released:


GM sale cleared, path opens to exit Chapter 11 - Yahoo! News


As far as I can see, the US government has complete and total ownership of General Motors now... ???

Complete insanity.

They said they will change the color of their logo green (seriously) and they will focus on building cars that are fuel efficient.

Sounds nobel, but why are my tax-payer dollars going towards cars that I refuse to buy?