Where Do Solstices Come From - Page 2 - Pontiac Solstice Forum

» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
» Wheel & Tire Center

Go Back   Pontiac Solstice Forum > General Solstice Discussion > General Solstice Discussion
Register Home Forum Gallery Owner Registry Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Auto Escrow

SolsticeForum.com is the premier Pontiac Solstice Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-31-2012, 12:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
I cant remember if its on the accessory side or intake side. The stamp is about the size of a pencil eraser and was done by hand with a hand punch.

Because of manufacturing costs related to labor costs, raw material costs and transport, trade laws and tariffs, ecological laws and concerns, and safety laws. Distribution of manufacturing is world wide!

Its very common for me to see tail light lenses made in Germany shipped to Korea to be installed in the tail light assembly with Brazilian seals, Japanese bulbs and Mexican brackets, and Chinese harnesses. Then shipped to the US or Canada for assembly into a vehicle.

GM doesn't really "make" anything any more, and even "assembly" of GM cars is managed by a third party at the factory.

--Christian
cdnite is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-31-2012, 03:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
SolPainter : Pulled out my window sticker for my 2007 GXP Automatic.
US/Canadian Parts Content: 66%
Country of Origin:
Engine: United States
Transmission: France
My car is labeled the same.

The component you guys are calling the differential is actually referred to by both GM and Getrag as the drive axle. It came from Getrag as a unit, from input flange to output flanges, including the case. Where Getrag got the parts is unknown, but my guess would be that they made the gears and shafts and sourced the case, bearings, and seals. The differential is the part of the drive axle comprised of the bevel gears and ring carrier that allows the axles to turn at different speeds. ie: Some of the "guts".

Getrag recently sold its axle division to GKN.
__________________
John
Lexington, KY
Sky VIN 00252
2.4 NA Manual
Midnight Blue

Last edited by JRinKY; 12-31-2012 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Answered my own question.
JRinKY is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2012, 04:00 PM   #18 (permalink)
Member
 
njtex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bad GM
I'm checking tomorrow when it's light out to see if I have one of those Saxon engines!
njtex is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2012, 05:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
Member
 
Treeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Scaggsville, MD
Any more, parts is parts. Everything is international on something with as many parts as a car. Buy American has sadly become meaningless.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using AutoGuide App
__________________
2009 Aggressive GXP
DDM Race Backbone, ProBeam, Coil Cover, Alignment, and Oil Catch Can
Solo Mach Shorty Exhaust
GMPP Tune
LatinVenom Front Brace
Werks Adjustable Sway Bars
Enkei Ammodo Wheels
Michelin Pilot Super Sport Summers/Pirelli 240 Sottozero Winters
Hawk HPS Brake Pads
Sound Deadener Showdown
Beach Party Central Custom Fusebox Cover
JPM Arm Rests
Lead Foot!
Treeman is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2012, 05:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
Member
 
CONNER98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbirdracing View Post
A daddy Solstice and a Mommy sosltice...

Then a big stork...
Soo Glad you beat me.. to my bad Trans am/Fiero fornication theory that I had derived from hours of dna testing,beer drinking,and head scratching.
CONNER98 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-31-2012, 06:28 PM   #21 (permalink)
HUH
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by wspohn View Post
...

Thanks for the info on the Fiero - the 88 2.8 had a normal balancer without lump on it as the engine was now internally balanced. The 2.5 had, IIRC, a neutral balance shaft, didn't it?

...
The only stock balance shafts the 2.5 liter had were two counter rotating shafts with weights that ran at twice engine speed. The unit was mounted to the bottom of the block inside the oil pan.

The Cosworth SD Iron Duke may have had neutral shafts, but that engine never made it into production cars only race cars.

The V6 would only have one internal shaft.
HUH is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 09:53 AM   #22 (permalink)
Member
 
ChopTop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Lansing, MI
Similar issues surrounds how or if design, engineering, manufacturing, and assembly affect/impact percentage of; made in USA value.

My opinion has always been that "assembled" and "made" are two entirely separate issues. Or another way of saying it is once Made in USA (or NA) label meant the contents were also produced in the USA. However, has now been legislated into meaning that even though the majority of the parts are foreign produced if a percentage of them are "assembled" in the USA it still qualifies the product to legally use a Made in USA (NA) label or designation.
ChopTop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 10:09 AM   #23 (permalink)
Member
 
wspohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: W. Vancouver BC
In the Good Old Days that was pretty common. My old British stuff was pretty much all manufactured and assembled in Britain, with subassemblies often coming by lorry from a neighbouring commercial estate. There were a few large manufacturers like Lucas, Armstrong and Rubery Owen that supplied bits to all the manufacturers and sometimes a manufacturer would buy an interest in one of those, which probably made the other makers without an interest a bit nervous as they would expect their rush orders to get second attention to the orders of the part owners.

Exactly the same thing happened there as happened in the US. US manufacturers most often owned subsidiaries that made shocks absorbers, distributors, carbs etc., but they began to sell them off, which put them at the mercy of the marketplace, and when some of the subs went under or changed direction, it reflected adversely on production.

There was an increasing push to go offshore for economic reasons and that also seemed to dilute control as well as sometimes quality. Basically, most of the British car industry no longer exists and the American industry would be toast without huge government bail outs.

I don't know how much of the problem is decentralization of control - you'd have to be an expert to even venture a guess, and probably other domestic matters were more crucial to the near collapse of the industry, but it makes you wonder.
__________________
Current fleet:
1957 Jamaican bodied MGA
1958 MGA Twin Cam (race car)
1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1965 Jensen CV8
1969 MGC roadster
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
1971 Jensen Interceptor
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe

Bill in BC
wspohn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 04:15 PM   #24 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: chas sc
my MINI has a Getrag 6sp; solid unit


Getrag is also used in other domestic cars (supposed to be able to retro fit a Cobalt Getrag right into the MINI, diff part numbers in cars; but same number from Getrag) so really no telling where it came from unless you have the shipping/order numbers from factory I'd imagine
LowCountry S is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-02-2013, 04:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
Member
 
chickenwire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Michigan
My version of Automotive Supply Chain History as seen through my eyes over just under 30 years working for various suppliers to the industry. I'm leaving out all political references and will make referrals to various aspects of the industry as generica and neutral as possible. Feel free to read as much or as little as you'd like to "between the lines".

When I became involved in the plastics molding industry in the early 80's the U.S. carmakers were struggling to turn around their position. Post WWII boomed so strongly that they began to produce some dreadful vehicles because after decades of pent up demand, most of what they made sold and they made enough money that the status quo worked fine. Japanese industry in particular embraced up-front research and engineering in order to eliminate costs in manufacturing and assembly. (This is a whole entirely different subject that I remain fiercely passionate about in every element of my job to this very day. If you ever care to hear my rant on that subject we can do that in a different thread. lol)

It was apparent that approaches that were being used in Japan in particular were effective (which were taugh to them by an American) but the domestic car companies were stuck with a cost structure and cultural obstacles that prevented them from moving in the new direction, at least as quickly as they needed to in order to compete with their newly emerging competitors. They looked to their suppliers to gain an advantage on several fronts. First, their suppliers could move quicker than they could. Second, their suppliers had tacit and critical knowledge of their own processes that could help develop a higher quality product at a reduced cost. (It used to be that the carmaker sent you a drawing and asked you to provide pricing. Lowest price wins. Then they realized especially in the case of plastics that the guy designing a nylon gear was a guy that had been designing steel gears for 25 years and he really doesn't know that much about molding. The person who has been molding plastic gears can help you design one that works better and is easier to mold.)

This worked well through the late 80's and more design and development went to the suppliers. The carmakers cut much of their white collar work force (engineering and design) and some shifted to be employed by the suppliers, some were hired back as "contract" employees. (This allowed the accountants to take them off their books as financial liabilities. They were paid more but without benefits. I can't speak as to weather the higher pay offset the lack of benefits or not.)

Around the same time the carmakers wanted to deal with fewer suppliers. On first glance this makes sense - why deal with thousands of different companys when you could be dealing with a few hundred? Easier all the way around. So the next wave was for their "major" suppliers to develop even more engineering capabilities and evolve into "system suppliers". Rather than supply parts, they would supply entire drive trains, interior packages, body systems, etc. With this new "reward" for the supply base also came the "risk". If you were the lucky winner and supplied "systems", you'd also be responsible for warranty costs. This also seems very reasonable because after all, the supplier is designing, developing, testing, and producing the system.

The issues I saw through the late 1990's were related to pricing pressures. The design, development, testing and warranty costs were shifted to the suppliers while the car makes began to demand (and I mean demand, not request) annual price reductions. The suppliers that became big-hitters had increased their overhead tremendously and were now facing a reality that their millions of dollars of business had grown into billions of dollars of business and if you can't hit those price reduction demands, you're in trouble because you'll lose the work.

So the suppliers began to do what the car makers could not do themselves - move production, realign costs, etc. The main issue I've seen over the last 15 years is that the supply base did not have the infrastructure and resources in place to properly manage it. They started doing what I call "saving money no matter what it costs". Decisions were made based upon this quarter's profit instead of the long term health of the company and the business environment in general.

I still remember being "called on the carpet" with our largest customer at the time about 10 years ago. I was trying to be as tactful as I could out of respect for this customer but their recently promoted "quality director" was apparently growing tired of my protests and decide to flex his muscle in a filled conference room. They'd had a complaint that the interior part we supplied was not "black" enough. (Don't get me started on color matches - it's trickier than it sounds, lol.) We were using a "standard black" off the shelf which DuPont will tell you has no guarantees, it's just going to look "black". He's requesting we go to a custom color match and I tell him we'll gladly do that, but there will be a cost increase involved. He refuses to absorb the cost increase. I tell him I won't do it. He threatens me with pulling all of his work from me. I tell him he must do what he must, but I don't believe he has the authority to do so. He then gets really pissed and starts thumping his finger on the drawing on the table and shouting "You are responsible for meeting every single specification on THIS drawing."

I reply "This drawing right here?" and thump my finger on the same drawing.

"Yes!"

"This drawing that's clearly stamped 'FOR REFERENCE ONLY'?"

"YES!"

"Very good then. Three of your plants will be shut down by morning."

"What do you mean?" (As snickers start to build in the room.)

"2/3 of your drawings don't come close to reflecting what you actually do in production. Your document and revision control sucks. Your people are all flying by the seat of their pants, but if you want it to be a black and white world, I'm good with that. If you want my employer to cover the costs of your oversights, I refuse to do so. Have a great aftenoon. I'll start sending up trucks to retrieve all our shipments made in the last week."

"You can't do that!"

"Not only have you given me permission to do that, I have the legal authority to do that. You haven't paid for any of that product yet so legally it belongs to us."

15 minutes into my drive back to the plant I get a call from the head of purchasing asking me "Tom, WTF are you doing?"

"Simply responding to the demands made of me."

"'!#@$# I don't need this drama."

"Neither do I dude, reign in your boy before he creates even bigger problems."

So what we have now are a collection of surviving suppliers spread across the globe that are doing a great deal of the development work that definitely has a payback. The ones who have survived have been able to do so by wisely using their resources, managing their costs, and knowing when to say "no".

We make a lot of electrical connectors and ship them to customers in low cost labor areas. Why not mold them there? We have the resources and experience to mold them better and as economically competitive as anyone else in the world. Why not assemble them to harnesses here? No way to automate sticking terminals into connectors on harnesses. We pay our people to mold and inspect parts on a highly automated line. They pay theirs to do the tedious manual assembly.

It's incredibly difficult to truly establish the true "origin" of everything. As others have pointed out a transmission may be assembled in one country, but many components may have been common in a different transmission and were produced in another country. Doesn't always make sense to tool it up in several places. If one machine is already banging 'em out, bang out more and send them to the other assembly point.

I always chuckle when I read articles that state the Kappa was a "parts bin car". What car ISN'T these days? If GM has 20 million power window buttons being produced already, would they really dump $60, $80, $120,000.00 to design, develop, and tool a new version? Heck no, all car companies commonize their components.
__________________
2007 2.4L N/A. Stock + WindRestrictor V2 + Kappa Attic + Kapparoo + Lil' Chromies + Kappa Luggage.
chickenwire is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2013, 07:37 AM   #26 (permalink)
Member
 
wspohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: W. Vancouver BC
Great story! It must have been satisfying for you to be able to state the truth of the marketplace at least once to an assertive company rep who clearly didn't understand it.

As for parts bin, I've spent the last 40 years restoring British cars. The old time partsman would look at a part and then rattle off the various cars it had appeared in, perhaps with minor modifications to suit the application.

The modern partsmen can't do anything but look up numbers in a book, so when the manufacturer changes the part number (take a look some time - one unchanged part may have 6 different superceded numbers applied to it) they just say "Sorry, NLA"
__________________
Current fleet:
1957 Jamaican bodied MGA
1958 MGA Twin Cam (race car)
1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1965 Jensen CV8
1969 MGC roadster
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
1971 Jensen Interceptor
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe

Bill in BC

Last edited by wspohn; 01-03-2013 at 09:19 AM.
wspohn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2013, 09:09 AM   #27 (permalink)
Member
 
ChopTop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Lansing, MI
Agree CW. Developing modern platforms seems to have evolved from a specific automotive company producing their own parts or products to be more about becoming sophisticated Project Managers. Also agree w/parts-bin opinion and why it's so frustrating to read automotive pundits continue to use the term so freely. I'm not sure if they're simply being obtuse or ignorant on how popular & prevalent parts-sharing has become in the automotive world. Automotive? Heck, probably all forms of manufacturing.

Don't even get me started on liking to use terms like "coarse & rough" to review certain vehicles and "cultured & refined" on others which seem to be based on a companies name as opposed to the fact that competing companies may be sharing the same suppliers & sub-contracted out parts. Long gone is the days when all parts for any automotive company product were being produced in-house. Hence the what does Made in USA mean?
ChopTop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2013, 09:34 AM   #28 (permalink)
Member
 
wspohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: W. Vancouver BC
I gave up being worried about 'parts bin' accusations when I bought my first Jensen back in the late 1970s (they use a big block Chrysler V8). I was parked at a show beside a guy with an Aston Martin DBS V8 and he scoffed at my car as besides being bodied in alloy and fibreglass, it had an outsourced engine. I responded that my car was lighter, more powerful, and had an engine that would last 100,000 miles between rebuilds (he'd just paid to have his overhauled at only 25K or so, God knows what had gone wrong) and when I did have to rebuild it, I could do it for about 10% of what his cost. He said something along the lines of "Well, there is that, I suppose" and didn't mention 'mongrel' any more.

Cars have been parts bin creations for decades - early Italian cars often used British brakes and electrical components - I sourced a replacement turn signal switch out of my old Lambo by examining it, getting the Lucas number on it and researching through 1960s catalogues to find a matching Austin part, which cost me $25 instead of the $300 the Lambo suppliers wanted. I similarly matched a couple of body latches to the same thing used on the Jensen Interceptors (which were originally styled in Italy).


While I admire elaborate bespoke car parts, I also hate paying for them! The fact that the Kappa is a parts bin car (like all the other GM products) is to my way of thinking a virtue, not a criticism. It means that we'll be able to get some parts from continuing models far longer than we otherwise could.

BTW, having been through all this (owning discontinued cars) I advocate anyone planning on long term ownership to stock up on spares while they can. Body and interior parts will become NLS first. I keep thinking I should really stockpile a couple of coupe taillights, but have been balking at the cost.....anyone know if convert lights will fit in a pinch?
__________________
Current fleet:
1957 Jamaican bodied MGA
1958 MGA Twin Cam (race car)
1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1965 Jensen CV8
1969 MGC roadster
1969 Lamborghini Islero S
1971 Jensen Interceptor
1988 Pontiac Fiero GT
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe

Bill in BC
wspohn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2013, 10:54 AM   #29 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Columbus Ohio
Re: Fiero

Quote:
Originally Posted by HUH View Post
The frame rails and many of the body panels were hydroformed and when I retired in 2000 the only place that had hydroforming capabilities was at the Pontiac plant in Pontiac Michigan; and I know that a plant in Windsor Canada was gearing up to do hydroforming. My guess is that the Kappa frame rails were built at Pontiac. Pontiac did the Corvette frame rails, and knowing the complexity of the manufacturing of them I would guess that they made the Kappa there also. One thing for sure is they weren’t manufactured at Wilmington. Wilmington probably just assembled the pieces together to make the Kappa chassis.

The hydroformed body panels could have been made either at Pontiac or Windsor.

The engine was built in Tonawanda New York. The differential was probably built in Mexico, but could have been built in Indiana.

Today’s world is different than when the Fiero was built, when almost all of the parts were manufactured at Pontiac (except for the 1988 V-6 engine).
My 87 Fiero GT Vehicle Invoice says" This vehicle is equipped with a General Motors engine produced in a General Motors plant operated by the Chev., Pont., or Canada Division." There is no indication of parts content from sources. My Fiero window sticker does not indicate parts sources. I also checked the documents for my 2006 Solstice (#37). Parts sourcing was not shown on the window sticker nor the dealer invoice. This specification of content sources, other than US, must have come from later law.
Fiero+Solstice is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-03-2013, 11:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
HUH
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero+Solstice View Post
My 87 Fiero GT Vehicle Invoice says" This vehicle is equipped with a General Motors engine produced in a General Motors plant operated by the Chev., Pont., or Canada Division." There is no indication of parts content from sources. My Fiero window sticker does not indicate parts sources. I also checked the documents for my 2006 Solstice (#37). Parts sourcing was not shown on the window sticker nor the dealer invoice. This specification of content sources, other than US, must have come from later law.
In 1984 GM reorganized all of the North America divisions into three divisions which were C-P-C (Chevrolet – Pontiac – GM of Canada), B-O-C (Buick-Oldsmobile-Cadillac) and Truck. The Pontiac plant was still Pontiac but was part of C-P-C. Your V6 engine was built at the Romulus plant that was a Chevrolet plant when it opened. But in 1984 it became part of the C-P-C division.

I remember when a law was passed that required major parts to have identification numbers that could be tracked in an attempt to stop cars being stolen and stripped for parts. I think that was in the mid 80’s. Most components in that time frame carried identifiers that tell what supplier made them and it wouldn’t be hard to add the country of origin.
HUH is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pontiac Solstice Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:12 AM.



Powered by vBulletin®. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.