Buick kept, Pontiac dumped. Why?

[07Green]

Originally Posted by VRESpeedFreak One thing I have yet to see mentioned/brought up, and I find it hard to believe that I am the only one who has thought of this... GM sold the other brands (Saturn, Hummer etc...), yet did not sell Pontiac...they simply stopped making them. Why is this important??? Because GM still owns the Pontiac name. So, in the future if/when things turn around, they have the option of bringing back Pontiac as a niche brand. If they sold Pontiac off like they did the other brands, this would not be an option, no matter how good things may turn out for them. Or am I missing something here??

Well, they tried to sell Saturn and the deal fell thru so it's now just like Pontiac. The question I have not seen answered and I'm hoping someone on here knows: Pontiac is not part of the New GM. Thus it must be part of the old GM - Liquidation Motors. The purpose of that enterprise is to sell off the old assets to try and recoup funds for the debt holders. What would prevent someone from presenting a reasonable offer to the bankruptcy court for the Pontiac name? I don't see how New GM could prevent this? Anyone?

[VRESpeedFreak]

Yeah, I forgot that the whole Saturn thing fell through...
But, my original point still remains. Even if they sell off assets/tooling/etc... the Pontiac name/brand was never up for sale. So, it can be brought back down the road as a GM company.

[snaponbob]

There were some financial overtures made to GM for Pontiac trademark rights and they were flatly refused. VRESpeed has it right. As long as Holden stays around, don't assume that Pontiac will not resurface in some way. And think about THIS; Fisker gets up and running, GM repays some of the Government loan money, and then BUYS Fisker - poof....instant Pontiac.

[Radio Doc]

Originally Posted by 07Green The question I have not seen answered and I'm hoping someone on here knows: Pontiac is not part of the New GM. Thus it must be part of the old GM - Liquidation Motors.

Let me respectfully suggest that your logic may be a bit faulty...

You are correct in saying "Pontiac is not part of the New GM".

It is not part of GM as an active brand being offered for sale, but that does not necessarily imply that "Pontiac" isn't being held as an asset of the New GM.

Just my

[07Green]

Originally Posted by Radio Doc Let me respectfully suggest that your logic may be a bit faulty... You are correct in saying "Pontiac is not part of the New GM". It is not part of GM as an active brand being offered for sale, but that does not necessarily imply that "Pontiac" isn't being held as an asset of the New GM. Just my

I suspect you are correct in your assessment. Seems to me like a case of having it both ways. A company that's gone bankrupt shouldn't have that option when there are creditors lined up trying to recover something.

[snaponbob]

Originally Posted by 07Green I suspect you are correct in your assessment. Seems to me like a case of having it both ways. A company that's gone bankrupt shouldn't have that option when there are creditors lined up trying to recover something.

A bankrupt entity (business or individual) does not have the option of CHOOSING what they can hold or liquidate. The court, or master of the court, makes those decisions. Assuming GM retains ownership of the brand, they also retain all the associated privileges, trademarks, and intellectual properties. Example; if MAC, MATCO, Snap-On, Cornwell, or some other tool company wanted to create a Pontiac G8 or Solstice GXP edition tool box (with emblems, graphics, etc.) they would be subject to royalty payments to GM. Income with ZERO cost. Same thing with diecasts of anything Pontiac. Why would they want to slough that off? ALL plus money. Want to restore an old GTO? Part of the price of the parts will be the royalties. And so on. Of course, they can always bring back the brand if they like.

[07Green]

Originally Posted by snaponbob A bankrupt entity (business or individual) does not have the option of CHOOSING what they can hold or liquidate. The court, or master of the court, makes those decisions. Assuming GM retains ownership of the brand, they also retain all the associated privileges, trademarks, and intellectual properties. Example; if MAC, MATCO, Snap-On, Cornwell, or some other tool company wanted to create a Pontiac G8 or Solstice GXP edition tool box (with emblems, graphics, etc.) they would be subject to royalty payments to GM. Income with ZERO cost. Same thing with diecasts of anything Pontiac. Why would they want to slough that off? ALL plus money. Want to restore an old GTO? Part of the price of the parts will be the royalties. And so on. Of course, they can always bring back the brand if they like.

You lost me. Why would the court make the decision to allow GM to retain control of the Pontiac Brand when they publicly announced closure prior to Bankruptcy? The court should have decided there might be value there for the debt holders in liquidation motors. Especially considering that new GM didn't need the Pontiac Brand to operate the remaining 4 core brands. I fully understand why New GM would want to retain the rights. As you can tell, I'm so pissed off at GM that I'd love to see someone else end up with the rights to Pontiac. Gm will NEVER bring Pontiac back.

[dengel]

Originally Posted by 07Green You lost me. Why would the court make the decision to allow GM to retain control of the Pontiac Brand when they publicly announced closure prior to Bankruptcy? The court should have decided there might be value there for the debt holders in liquidation motors. Especially considering that new GM didn't need the Pontiac Brand to operate the remaining 4 core brands. I fully understand why New GM would want to retain the rights. As you can tell, I'm so pissed off at GM that I'd love to see someone else end up with the rights to Pontiac. Gm will NEVER bring Pontiac back.

With the way Pontiac is linked to GMC within the GM corporate entity, it would probably be cost prohibitive to try and separate out the Pontiac brand to make it saleable, and with no separate dealership network for Pontiac and no real Pontiac-only platforms to sell with the brand, there really is no inherent value to sell the Pontiac brand the way there was with Saturn, Hummer or Saab.

[info2x]

Guess I missed that people had posed in this thread again, my apologies.

Originally Posted by ChgoBlues What grabs my attention of the quote is "The highly successful Insignia...." Gee, hasn't GM constantly said Opel was not profitable? And now they've backed out of selling Opel/Vauxhall to Magna. What gives?

You can have a successful model, but the brand can still be in the red. Let's say I have 5 products 4 of them are complete market losses, but one is very successful in that it exceeds projected volumes and profits, but if it doesn't offset the other 4 products the brand as a whole still doesn't make money. Opel needs to be restructured like the rest of the company. Like the US they are burdened with over capacity. As far as backing out of the Opel sale... I personally like the idea. When GM was selling Saturn all they were selling was the name and dealer network, nothing else (that I'm aware of). The deal with Magna and Sherbank (I'm sorry on the spelling if it's wrong) was much more complicated because technology and intellectual property were also part of the deal. There were a lot of concerns that with the joint ownership tech and IP would be shared with other competitors, it was just going to be messy. In the short term it would have been fine, but years down the road I think it could have been a big mistake. That's my opinion on the matter. If you want to read the press release go for it News Detail

Originally Posted by snaponbob Does seem odd. However, the Aura (now Malibu, and a Buick of some name), newest Vue, some future GM world platforms, and some help on the Kappa have all come out of Opel. The Astra is a decent car, but the exchange rate made it uncompetitive so it was a bust. It will be interesting how GM further folds it into the new mix because it is apparent they need to division.

I agree with you on the Astra bit, and I know Opel has certainly had a hand in the mid-size cars. I would like to have seen a turbo Astra myself something along the lines of a GTI fighter.

Originally Posted by 07Green Catching up on this thread and I need to respond to several points: Pontiac has always outsold Buick by wide margins at least since the early 60's. Not just in recent years. In the late 60's and early 70's, Pontiac was number 3 in the industry. I find it quite funny that a company (GM) that lost on the order of 85 Billion in the last 5 years can speak of brands that are profitable. That's some voodoo accounting. No GM brands have been profitable recently.

I don't know how they calculate a profit (or loss) on a per brand basis. But one theory could be that Buick lost less money than Pontiac, which I suppose would make it more profitable than Pontiac. Just a thought. Perhaps more significantly is that Buick is sold in China and does very well.

Originally Posted by 07Green Since GMC and Pontiac were combined in the 90's, why is it that they still would need or want to perform separate accounting?

Buick was also in that brand channel (BPG). Like I said before I don't know how they break it down.

Originally Posted by 07Green Buicks in this country will never attract the younger crowd that Pontiac could connect with if given adequate product.

The same was probably said about Cadillac before the first generation CTS came out. Buick has also shown that "younger" buyers (by Buick standards) are willing to consider the brand since the Enclave has a lower average age than the rest of the line up. It won't happen overnight, but I think it could happen if the right product is there. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by 07Green The whole problem with Pontiac in recent years was the criminal neglect of this brand by GM.

Neglect? Well I can see the argument. I'd say it was more of a dilution of the brand image by vehicles that weren't in line with the Pontiac mantra of exciting.

My personal thought has always been that GM could maintain 8 brands if and only if all 8 brands didn't try to be full line manufactures that kept competing with each other. But I can't say that a model like that would make sense either.

Originally Posted by 07Green At the POCI/GTO National show this year in Dayton I was enjoying the sea of Pontiacs around me. I overheard someone say, "Look at this crowd and these cars. Buick doesn't have any enthusiast following like this." GM has destroyed this fan base. The value of a brand is more than what the current sales or profits may be. You need to also consider the POTENTIAL. Pontiac had tons of potential and GM didn't consider it.

I have no clue how big the enthusiast market is for Buicks, like you point out probably not as large. I'm sure it's more biased towards the older generations (of cars) regardless. I certainly realize that the value of a brand is more than what it may currently be doing. Unfortunately I don't think GM had the luxury of continuing Pontiac. I don't like this personally, I liked the solstice and G8. Perhaps the brand will come back when the rest of the company is back on solid footing, I certainly hope so.

Originally Posted by ChgoBlues The Opel Insignia is now destined to be the Buick Regal here, which is already a hot car in China. What was the Vue is for the most part, the 'new' Cadillac SRX, just with upgrades up the a**, the Outlook replaced with the Chevy Traverse and we all know the fate of the Sky. The Astra yes, fun and great little car, fell victim to not only the exchange rate but also GM's inherent lack of marketing Saturn product. But rumor also has it that the Opel Astra will reappear as a Buick model. I can't imagine myself walking into a Buick dealer. I didn't think I was that old yet. UGH!

The vue is more closely related to the Equinox and Terrain pair as they are on the mid-size crossover platform. The SRX however is on a hybrid platform between the aforementioned mid-size crossover platform as well as the second gen mid-size car program. It's actually weighted more towards the car program from what I understand.

No clue on the Astra as a Buick, but I'd be interested in seeing how it does. The regal is really nice, I'd buy one. I haven't seen one is Buick form, but the insignias that I've seen are really nice.

Originally Posted by VRESpeedFreak One thing I have yet to see mentioned/brought up, and I find it hard to believe that I am the only one who has thought of this... GM sold the other brands (Saturn, Hummer etc...), yet did not sell Pontiac...they simply stopped making them. Why is this important??? Because GM still owns the Pontiac name. So, in the future if/when things turn around, they have the option of bringing back Pontiac as a niche brand. If they sold Pontiac off like they did the other brands, this would not be an option, no matter how good things may turn out for them. Or am I missing something here??

That's what I'm hoping for, but only time will tell.

[info2x]

Son of a gun the topic was active all afternoon... now I've got to reread it all.