Location: Under an invisibility cloak, somewhere in the Northeast
Posted this afternoon on Automotive News' website:
It involves just the 2.0L Turbo GXPs.
Quote:
Feds check Solstice, Sky brakes
Harry Stoffer
Automotive News | March 10, 2008 - 2:07 pm EST
WASHINGTON -- Federal safety officials are conducting a preliminary investigation into complaints that brakes on 2008 Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters with 2.0-liter turbocharged engines don’t work as well as they should.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, in a document posted on its Web site today, said it has received 40 complaints. The main complaint is that too much pressure must be applied to the brake pedal to stop the car, especially when the engine is cold.
The agency says that one reported crash may be related to the alleged problem. An estimated 20,000 of the vehicles are in service.
NHTSA notes that General Motors issued a technical service bulletin in December, advising dealers about recalibrating brake control modules. The cars use the stability control module pump to boost hydraulic pressure at the wheels during periods of low booster vacuum, such as engine warm-up, NHTSA says.
The NHTSA investigation is called a preliminary evaluation. The agency can drop the investigation if it finds there is no reason for further study, or it can upgrade its review. An investigation ultimately can lead to a safety recall.
The NHTSA version of the pedal effort investigation:
Quote:
THE OFFICE OF DEFECTS INVESTIGATION (ODI) HAS RECEIVED 40 COMPLAINTS ALLEGING INADEQUATE BRAKE POWER ASSIST IN MODEL YEAR (MY) 2008 PONTIAC SOLSTICE AND SATURN SKY VEHICLES WITH 2.0L TURBO ENGINES.
THE COMPLAINANTS ALLEGE EXCESSIVE BRAKE PEDAL EFFORT IS REQUIRED TO STOP THE VEHICLE ON INITIAL APPLICATIONS FOLLOWING A COLD START, TYPICALLY IN A DRIVEWAY OR PARKING LOT.
ODI IS AWARE OF ONE CRASH THAT MAY HAVE RESULTED FROM THE ALLEGED DEFECT.
THE BRAKING SYSTEM IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES USES THE STABILITY CONTROL MODULE PUMP TO BOOST HYDRAULIC PRESSURE AT THE WHEELS DURING CONDITIONS OF LOW BOOSTER VACUUM, SUCH AS DURING THE ENGINE WARM UP PERIOD. GM ISSUED A TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN (#07-05-25-007) IN DECEMBER 2007 RELEASING A REVISED CALIBRATION FOR THE ELECTRONIC BRAKE CONTROL MODULE TO ADDRESS COMPLAINTS OF EXTRA EFFORT TO DEPRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL AFTER THE VEHICLE HAD NOT BEEN OPERATED FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD.
A PRELIMINARY EVALUATION HAS BEEN OPENED TO ASSESS THE SCOPE, FREQUENCY AND SAFETY CONSEQUENCES OF THE ALLEGED DEFECT.
__________________
INFORMATION POSTED ON SITE
Any GM Solstice Service Manual and Service Bulletin information found here on site, or Sales and Product information should be thought of as correct and accurate as of the date posted. After that any information or procedure should be confirmed as still correct with your dealership.
Last edited by Small Dealer : 03-10-2008 at 03:31 PM.
Location: Under an invisibility cloak, somewhere in the Northeast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Rider
Those of us with these brake issues DON'T stop filing complaints because of this news. Continue to do so until we get a ruling from ODI.
The results of the Preliminary Evaluation (PE) will determine whether the investigation will be upgraded or closed.
Most PEs are resolved within four months (according to the NHTSA).
__________________
INFORMATION POSTED ON SITE
Any GM Solstice Service Manual and Service Bulletin information found here on site, or Sales and Product information should be thought of as correct and accurate as of the date posted. After that any information or procedure should be confirmed as still correct with your dealership.
Last edited by Small Dealer : 03-10-2008 at 03:37 PM.
It's a shame that General Motors continues to do business this way...but they do.
Does anyone believe that GM is actually cooperating with the NHTSA?
Didn't sound like they were cooperating with anyone yesterday. -Lumix
The most interesting part of this thread to me was "GM plans to move production of both models from Delaware to a facility in Bowling Green, Ky., in 2012." Will the new Solstice be built along side the Corvette?
__________________
2007 Aggressive GXP black top with headliner, Chrome Wheels, Leather w/Red Stiching, 6-Disc CD with Monsoon and XM. NO Smokers, NO OnStar. Purchased 05/12/07.
I fear that the SOLSTICE is becoming the new FIERO as far as bad press goes.
It's terrible when a Halo car goes bad.
It's a fun car, I've been impressed, but my confidence is in the poor range these days.
I still have to return the car for the RECALL of the pinion seal, and a replacement of the top. Just under 12,000 miles now.
__________________
_
Team Solstice 2008 HOT SHOT Aggressive 2007 GXP Auto-minus On*Star, spoiler, and smokers pkg. Delivered December 4, 2006
Ave mixed driving 26 mpg
2 failed pinion seals...300+ miles, and 9,700+ miles...and one more under recall at 12,636 miles for a grand total of 3!
Driver's outside door handle came apart in May 2008...repaired June 2008
Canvas top replaced June 2008.
Gas cap replaced.
All repairs covered under warranty.
It's a shame that General Motors continues to do business this way...but they do.Does anyone believe that GM is actually cooperating with the NHTSA?
Didn't sound like they were cooperating with anyone yesterday. -Lumix
dont understand what you mean by this statement....problems are noted....TSBs issued or recalls issued as appropriate....and its not limited to just Pontiac or GM......check out other forums on Honda/Toyota.....complaints on transmissions on the new Camry....and lots of complaints on the gas mileage of the new Accord......but people give them the benefit of the doubt and then scream bloody murder about GM...and their bad business practices....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pontiac builds excitement... Saturn has rethought it's image...
The time has come for the enthusiasts... NASSOA(TM)
Founding Member-Vendor and Marketing Coordinator ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Im sorry but I have to say that there are a lot of people on this forum with expectations that do not match reality.
One of the best engineered vehicles on the planet are F-150s. I have had many over the years.
I had switches come off in my hand
I had the auto trans main clutch set self destruct in a truck with less than 4000 miles on the clock totally destroying that unit
My 97 was in five times for front disk problems due to material problems with the pads. Ford stuck with it till they got all F-150s fixed
My 00 had the transmission swapped out at 6000 miles.
My 04 Ranager had the tranny out 5 times until they got the clutch working correctly.
No manufactured product is ever perfect in every example. the more complex the product is and the more units built the greater the number of failures there will be.
Expecting that every one of the 20000 Sky/Solstices to come out of the factory and be perfect for 100,000 miles is a fantasy.
You can improve your odds if you operate the car within its limits, keep an eye on how its functioning and identify problems early. Routine maintenance for example is in the direction of goodness. You can not just drive this car, you have to be an operator.
If you really want a car that comes out of the factory as close to perfect as possible, get a Bently or a RR. But you will pay through the nose for that perfection.
Its an imperfect world. There are always tradeoffs. We all want as much bang for the buck as we can get. GM is not the "evil empire" They are in the business of making money and they do that by providing quality products that people are willing to pay good money to own.
In the competitive world that GM must succeed in, they have to constantly have an eye on the bottom line. If they can save $100 on the manufacturing side they can take that money and put it back into new features that enhance their competitive advantage. You WANT them to do this. Otherwise we would all be driving 1950 cars because they are cheap and easy to build.
The market drove GM to build the cars that we love. That same market drives them to constantly look at the product for ways to cut cost of production, and add new functionality.
Last time I checked there was no one with a club standing behind you threatening you if you did not buy your Sol / Sky. You were a volunteer. Blaming big bad GM for your decision making process is not enhancing your position in life.
If your brakes don't work on startup, then wait till they do. If they don't come up to pressure or fail to work then its a failure. Its not necessarily a design problem because the brakes are not "instant on" every time you start the car.
To me its like saying "I left the top down and got all wet when it rained" "I did not want to put the top up and I did not want to get wet so its all that evil GM's problem" "They should have designed the car so that you don't get wet when the top is down in the rain"
Its physics.
As a result of the design, there are a lot of things that you MUST do to get the car to operate properly. Like opening the door before getting into the car. You EXPECT to have to open the door so its ok. If you have a properly functioning car, but its on the right end of the bell curve and takes a minute to come up to pressure then its still OK.
If you have to wait for a minute or even two minutes for brake pressure (vacume) to come up, then that is just the way your car operates. Our Sky takes about 15 seconds to come up to full normal pressure. I wait 20 seconds before I make a brake demand, then I check pedal pressure before I back out. Its part of the normal operating procedure for the car. I have never had a problem since I adopted this procedure. I dont think that GM screwed up because the car does not always have instant on brakes.
My 07 SOL has the vacume pump and I still wait for 15-20 seconds for the engine and appliances to come up to normal operating pressure, rpm etc. Then I put my foot on the service brake and know that all is well. Then I drive out.
If you dont' have braking after a minute then you have a problem. You need to get it repaired and returned to service.
Complaining about the evil GM and how they are out to screw us is . . . well just pointless and wrong.
Last edited by rob the elder : 03-11-2008 at 07:43 AM.
Location: Deep in the land of cotton where good times there are not forgotten
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcronec5
The most interesting part of this thread to me was "GM plans to move production of both models from Delaware to a facility in Bowling Green, Ky., in 2012." Will the new Solstice be built along side the Corvette?
Where in this thread does it say that? And yes the plant is moving to Bowling Green but where is this referanced in this thread?....Skip...
__________________
Driving the Sky takes my breath away that is why I use oxygen...
If you have to wait for a minute or even two minutes for brake pressure (vacume) to come up, then that is just the way your car operates. Our Sky takes about 15 seconds to come up to full normal pressure. I wait 20 seconds before I make a brake demand, then I check pedal pressure before I back out. Its part of the normal operating procedure for the car. I have never had a problem since I adopted this procedure. I dont think that GM screwed up because the car does not always have instant on brakes.
My 07 SOL has the vacume pump and I still wait for 15-20 seconds for the engine and appliances to come up to normal operating pressure, rpm etc. Then I put my foot on the service brake and know that all is well. Then I drive out.
If you dont' have braking after a minute then you have a problem. You need to get it repaired and returned to service.
Complaining about the evil GM and how they are out to screw us is . . . well just pointless and wrong.
And this is where the car as appliance breaks down. When we are being told to never warm up a vehicle as it is bad for the environment, just start an go then that is a problem. Now we are being told to warm up the vehicle since the highly sophisticted and most modern brakes cannot work on vacuum alone or there is insufficient vacuum produced by the engine. I had a diesel Chevy with the converted Olds. Diesels do not produce vacuum, so in place of the distributor was a vacuum pump and the brakes worked immediately and all the time. Why GM needed to complicate things with hydraulics just complicates things. It isn't like the brakes don't work under manual pressure - they do, but take more foot pressure than some drivers might be able to exert. And if you cannot hold the vehicle still, even when in neutral for starting - and have not employed the parking brake then there could be cause for alarm. But this will obviously be many drivers' first exposure to a not-instant on and ready to go car since the days of manual chokes.
__________________
When more than one friend wants to ride shotgun
No, I do not work for GM or any subsidiary or supplier.
Im sorry but I have to say that there are a lot of people on this forum with expectations that do not match reality.
One of the best engineered vehicles on the planet are F-150s. I have had many over the years.
I had switches come off in my hand
I had the auto trans main clutch set self destruct in a truck with less than 4000 miles on the clock totally destroying that unit
My 97 was in five times for front disk problems due to material problems with the pads. Ford stuck with it till they got all F-150s fixed
My 00 had the transmission swapped out at 6000 miles.
My 04 Ranager had the tranny out 5 times until they got the clutch working correctly.
No manufactured product is ever perfect in every example. the more complex the product is and the more units built the greater the number of failures there will be.
Expecting that every one of the 20000 Sky/Solstices to come out of the factory and be perfect for 100,000 miles is a fantasy.
You can improve your odds if you operate the car within its limits, keep an eye on how its functioning and identify problems early. Routine maintenance for example is in the direction of goodness. You can not just drive this car, you have to be an operator.
If you really want a car that comes out of the factory as close to perfect as possible, get a Bently or a RR. But you will pay through the nose for that perfection.
Its an imperfect world. There are always tradeoffs. We all want as much bang for the buck as we can get. GM is not the "evil empire" They are in the business of making money and they do that by providing quality products that people are willing to pay good money to own.
In the competitive world that GM must succeed in, they have to constantly have an eye on the bottom line. If they can save $100 on the manufacturing side they can take that money and put it back into new features that enhance their competitive advantage. You WANT them to do this. Otherwise we would all be driving 1950 cars because they are cheap and easy to build.
The market drove GM to build the cars that we love. That same market drives them to constantly look at the product for ways to cut cost of production, and add new functionality.
Last time I checked there was no one with a club standing behind you threatening you if you did not buy your Sol / Sky. You were a volunteer. Blaming big bad GM for your decision making process is not enhancing your position in life.
If your brakes don't work on startup, then wait till they do. If they don't come up to pressure or fail to work then its a failure. Its not necessarily a design problem because the brakes are not "instant on" every time you start the car.
To me its like saying "I left the top down and got all wet when it rained" "I did not want to put the top up and I did not want to get wet so its all that evil GM's problem" "They should have designed the car so that you don't get wet when the top is down in the rain"
Its physics.
As a result of the design, there are a lot of things that you MUST do to get the car to operate properly. Like opening the door before getting into the car. You EXPECT to have to open the door so its ok. If you have a properly functioning car, but its on the right end of the bell curve and takes a minute to come up to pressure then its still OK.
If you have to wait for a minute or even two minutes for brake pressure (vacume) to come up, then that is just the way your car operates. Our Sky takes about 15 seconds to come up to full normal pressure. I wait 20 seconds before I make a brake demand, then I check pedal pressure before I back out. Its part of the normal operating procedure for the car. I have never had a problem since I adopted this procedure. I dont think that GM screwed up because the car does not always have instant on brakes.
My 07 SOL has the vacume pump and I still wait for 15-20 seconds for the engine and appliances to come up to normal operating pressure, rpm etc. Then I put my foot on the service brake and know that all is well. Then I drive out.
If you dont' have braking after a minute then you have a problem. You need to get it repaired and returned to service.
Complaining about the evil GM and how they are out to screw us is . . . well just pointless and wrong.
Well said! Constructive criticism and efforts to improve the machine is one thing, but is another. If you are that unhappy, sell the car and move on
__________________ Cheers
GMH
Mysterious GXP
May you always be topless with a full tank
NASSOA Founding Member #95
Team Solstice!! Folding@home Team
Location: Well, I'm not in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by achieftain
And this is where the car as appliance breaks down. When we are being told to never warm up a vehicle as it is bad for the environment, just start an go then that is a problem. Now we are being told to warm up the vehicle since the highly sophisticted and most modern brakes cannot work on vacuum alone or there is insufficient vacuum produced by the engine. I had a diesel Chevy with the converted Olds. Diesels do not produce vacuum, so in place of the distributor was a vacuum pump and the brakes worked immediately and all the time. Why GM needed to complicate things with hydraulics just complicates things. It isn't like the brakes don't work under manual pressure - they do, but take more foot pressure than some drivers might be able to exert. And if you cannot hold the vehicle still, even when in neutral for starting - and have not employed the parking brake then there could be cause for alarm. But this will obviously be many drivers' first exposure to a not-instant on and ready to go car since the days of manual chokes.
Whoa there AC, there's a HUGE difference between 15 seconds of 'waiting' and warming up an engine. Hell in 15 seconds perhaps I've adjusted the radio volume, fastened my seat belt and and shifted into reverse. I'll have to 'time' it...no, I don't have time.
15 seconds is hardly anywhere near what most who are in the old-school-thou-shalt-warm-up-thy-engine club believe is sufficient.
is another. If you are that unhappy, sell the car and move on