Official: GM shrinking to four brands; Pontiac to four models

[Devoking]

Remember folks that an anouncement to stop a brand and it's actual stopping of production are two different things.
I don't remember exactly how long it was, but it was something like 3 or 4 years after the anouncemnet about Oldsmobile that they truely stopped producing.

[mbfesta2009]

Originally Posted by Devoking Remember folks that an anouncement to stop a brand and it's actual stopping of production are two different things. I don't remember exactly how long it was, but it was something like 3 or 4 years after the anouncemnet about Oldsmobile that they truely stopped producing.

And how much of that was due to just running off the existing products at the end of their life? Remeber that the last vehicle produced from Oldsmobile was the Alero which basically ended production right along side of the other N-Body cars.

[Snugglebear]

Are they considering Corvette as a Chevy or is it an invisible brand (i.e. exists separately but not mentioned above)? I'm just idly thinking Pontiac may wind up in the same invisible boat. Oh, and how long before someone rolls in saying now the Sky will be worth so much more as a collector car?

[Fformula88]

Obviously things are starting to take more shape as GM prepares it’s final plan in it’s restructuring.

Still, there has got to be questions.

Pontiac for instance. If it is going to be a niche brand in the Buick/Pontiac/GMC (BPG) channel, then it needs to set a definite image. If the products are going to be G8, Solstice, G5 and Vibe, then the image is very confused. You have two vehicles which set a sport tone in the G8 and Solstice, and two cheap economy cars in the Vibe and G5.

For Saturn, I would not write it off yet. With the stand alone dealership franchises, it would be extremely pricey to just axe it. I would think GM will be aggressive in finding a buyer if they truly do not intend to keep them. Killing Olds cost them billions to get rid of the stand alone dealerships.

Also, I cannot see the Solstice continuing and not the Sky, since Solstice sales and production alone are not enough to maintain a dedicated manufacturing plant.

Lets not fool ourselves here either. The Sol may stay for now, but GM has no product at Wilmington past 2012, and they have shelved engineering work on improvements and redesigns for kappa. By 2012, kappa will have been in production nearly 8 years, and chances are will be in need of such a redesign. Should that engineering work not begin rather soon, maybe within the next year or so, neither car is going to make it much past the first quarter of next decade.

[mbfesta2009]

Originally Posted by Snugglebear Are they considering Corvette as a Chevy or is it an invisible brand (i.e. exists separately but not mentioned above)? I'm just idly thinking Pontiac may wind up in the same invisible boat. Oh, and how long before someone rolls in saying now the Sky will be worth so much more as a collector car?

Corvette is Chevrolet it is not it's own brand. And I have already seen plenty of posts else where that people think the Sky will make a better collector car. Here is the problem with collector cars, you can't plan them.

[achieftain]

Originally Posted by Fformula88 Obviously things are starting to take more shape as GM prepares it’s final plan in it’s restructuring. Still, there has got to be questions. Pontiac for instance. If it is going to be a niche brand in the Buick/Pontiac/GMC (BPG) channel, then it needs to set a definite image. If the products are going to be G8, Solstice, G5 and Vibe, then the image is very confused. You have two vehicles which set a sport tone in the G8 and Solstice, and two cheap economy cars in the Vibe and G5. For Saturn, I would not write it off yet. With the stand alone dealership franchises, it would be extremely pricey to just axe it. I would think GM will be aggressive in finding a buyer if they truly do not intend to keep them. Killing Olds cost them billions to get rid of the stand alone dealerships. Also, I cannot see the Solstice continuing and not the Sky, since Solstice sales and production alone are not enough to maintain a dedicated manufacturing plant. Lets not fool ourselves here either. The Sol may stay for now, but GM has no product at Wilmington past 2012, and they have shelved engineering work on improvements and redesigns for kappa. By 2012, kappa will have been in production nearly 8 years, and chances are will be in need of such a redesign. Should that engineering work not begin rather soon, maybe within the next year or so, neither car is going to make it much past the first quarter of next decade.

Stand alone dealerships and stand alone factory support are part of what has kept Saturn from making an annual profit as a division in all except one year. Axing Saturn as an entire brand including all support staff who work for no other division makes more sense than trying to find extra work for people who now handle warranty/ordering/etc for not only Buick, but GMC and Pontiac also.

Wilmington closes after 2012 anyway, that's already in the works. Even double annual Kappa production is not enough to maintain the facility. If the Sol continues without the Sky at Bowling Green it won't make or break that transition.

If teh Vibe and G5 are going to stay, at least offer GXP versions. 260hp AWD Vibe!!!

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by mbfesta2009 Corvette is Chevrolet it is not it's own brand. And I have already seen plenty of posts else where that people think the Sky will make a better collector car. Here is the problem with collector cars, you can't plan them.

And here I thought Corvette was its own division. Yeah, I know the issues with collector cars, which is why I just shake my head every time someone goes off on a rant about how the Solstice or Sky is sure to be one. We are, however, overdue for one of those.

[mbfesta2009]

I still wonder why they don't find a way to either:
1) Find a way to share the roadster platform with the Corvette, Sky, Sosltice, XLR?
2) Somehow alter the platform so that it can be used with multiple setup capabilities like a compact/sub compact sedan/coupe.

[rob the elder]

For your consideration from an old guy.

Olds used to be the "cutting edge" brand for GM. They tended to bring out new technologies on the Rocket cars and if they worked and clicked with the public then they migrated to other brands. That whole engineering / marketing strategy worked in the 40s and 50s but was pretty much dead by the 70s. Thus the eventual demise of Olds as a brand. Back then, every brand had its own separate and very visible niche in the spectrum of autodom.

There are a lot of people who will buy a Pontiac (lead indian) but would not be caught dead in a piece of offal Chevrolet. Its just a fact of life. When I was first learning about cars, there were Ford guys and Chevy guys and never the twain would meet. If you came from a Ford family and drove a Chevy home, you were in big trouble. But if you, say showed up in a GTO and blew your brother's doors off in his Ford GT, well that was OK. It was not a chevy.

The largest selling catagory of vehicles and the source of the majority of profits for decades has been light duty trucks.

Real men drive Fords . . . but in a pinch GMC are pretty good trucks. Only whimps and uneducated drive Chevy pieces of crap. They drive down the road with the hoods bent in the middle, they catch fire, the frames twist in the middle so the damn things look like a corkscrew going down the road. Again, this is not me talking but its half the people who buy trucks. The GMC is viewed by these people as at least acceptable. Its not a Chevy and its more "heavy duty" than a Chevy.

I wonder what will happen to the Sky while the Solstice production line remains open. Will they go to building Opals only? Or ??

The Sol is a for profit vehicle that also brings a lot of visibility to GM / Pontiac that pays added dividends. The real question in my mind is where will they go when the inevitable happens and the market is saturated so annual sales drop to Miata levels of 8 - 10K cars a year? Maintaining production of basically the same car at those numbers could be profitable but I dont see how it can pay for keeping the whole factory in Wilmington open and humming. But maybe they will make it work.

As to Saturn, the basic mistake they made in the beginning was chasing the Japanese low end cars. By the time Saturn started bringing their cheap, low end cars to the market, the Japanese had come out with mid range, high range and very high alternative brands. Saturn was an entry car with no growth. Buyers either stayed with the cheap small cars or more likely migrated to bigger Japanese cars. So Saturn was generating more sales for Japanese rather than capturing long term buyers for GM.

Now Saturn is really Opal. They are the American sales outlet for Germany and dont produce anything. Well, their old plant produces Chevys.

The Opal is a decades old GERMAN car company. Vauxhal is a decades old British car company. Different entities totally. The German tradition is to drive very fast cars very well. The British tradition is to include a tool kit in all their cars so that everyone in GB can spend their Sunday's putting their cars back together in hopes that they will get them through another work week. Anyone hear of Lucas? Going fast or well is not in the British lexicon outside of the few upper crust and competition drivers. And a few nuts that show up on Youtube.

Its interesting to see that Ford may be the ultimate winner in this whole deal. The Ford family saw the handwriting on the wall about a decade ago and started shedding costs and unprofitable product lines. They may end up getting back where they were before Henry shut down the plant to retool and let GM get out front. Will be fun to watch.


And yes, Corvette is just a Chevette with a couple of letters changed. The Chevette forms the low end of the cost / performance spectrum for the bow tie while Corvette forms the other end of the spectrum. But its still a Chevy and no Ford guy would be caught dead in one. Or so we claim.

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by achieftain Stand alone dealerships and stand alone factory support are part of what has kept Saturn from making an annual profit as a division in all except one year. Axing Saturn as an entire brand including all support staff who work for no other division makes more sense than trying to find extra work for people who now handle warranty/ordering/etc for not only Buick, but GMC and Pontiac also. Wilmington closes after 2012 anyway, that's already in the works. Even double annual Kappa production is not enough to maintain the facility. If the Sol continues without the Sky at Bowling Green it won't make or break that transition. If teh Vibe and G5 are going to stay, at least offer GXP versions. 260hp AWD Vibe!!!

That's definately a reality as far as Saturn is concerned, and one reason for it's demise. I would not accept it as an excuse, but it is what it is.

As for kappa, there likely won't be a Solstice, Sky, or kappa beyond 2012 when Wilmington is set to lose the product unless they restart the engineering and design work on the second generation car soon. The usefulness of the current platform will eventually come to an end because of legistalive changes in federally mandated requirements, and by 2012 the current platform will be awfully long in the tooth compared to the pace of increasingly stringent government mandates.

I do agree with the Vibe and G5. Not sure where you go with Vibe, since you would need a Toyota drivetrain for a GXP version, and I don't see much in the way of high performance out of that company. The G5 would be far easier, but apparently corporate politics has Chevy hording the DI 2.0L's for it's HHR's and Cobalts.

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by rob the elder For your consideration from an old guy. Olds used to be the "cutting edge" brand for GM. They tended to bring out new technologies on the Rocket cars and if they worked and clicked with the public then they migrated to other brands. That whole engineering / marketing strategy worked in the 40s and 50s but was pretty much dead by the 70s. Thus the eventual demise of Olds as a brand. Back then, every brand had its own separate and very visible niche in the spectrum of autodom. There are a lot of people who will buy a Pontiac (lead indian) but would not be caught dead in a piece of offal Chevrolet. Its just a fact of life. When I was first learning about cars, there were Ford guys and Chevy guys and never the twain would meet. If you came from a Ford family and drove a Chevy home, you were in big trouble. But if you, say showed up in a GTO and blew your brother's doors off in his Ford GT, well that was OK. It was not a chevy. The largest selling catagory of vehicles and the source of the majority of profits for decades has been light duty trucks. Real men drive Fords . . . but in a pinch GMC are pretty good trucks. Only whimps and uneducated drive Chevy pieces of crap. They drive down the road with the hoods bent in the middle, they catch fire, the frames twist in the middle so the damn things look like a corkscrew going down the road. Again, this is not me talking but its half the people who buy trucks. The GMC is viewed by these people as at least acceptable. Its not a Chevy and its more "heavy duty" than a Chevy. I wonder what will happen to the Sky while the Solstice production line remains open. Will they go to building Opals only? Or ?? The Sol is a for profit vehicle that also brings a lot of visibility to GM / Pontiac that pays added dividends. The real question in my mind is where will they go when the inevitable happens and the market is saturated so annual sales drop to Miata levels of 8 - 10K cars a year? Maintaining production of basically the same car at those numbers could be profitable but I dont see how it can pay for keeping the whole factory in Wilmington open and humming. But maybe they will make it work. As to Saturn, the basic mistake they made in the beginning was chasing the Japanese low end cars. By the time Saturn started bringing their cheap, low end cars to the market, the Japanese had come out with mid range, high range and very high alternative brands. Saturn was an entry car with no growth. Buyers either stayed with the cheap small cars or more likely migrated to bigger Japanese cars. So Saturn was generating more sales for Japanese rather than capturing long term buyers for GM. Now Saturn is really Opal. They are the American sales outlet for Germany and dont produce anything. Well, their old plant produces Chevys. The Opal is a decades old GERMAN car company. Vauxhal is a decades old British car company. Different entities totally. The German tradition is to drive very fast cars very well. The British tradition is to include a tool kit in all their cars so that everyone in GB can spend their Sunday's putting their cars back together in hopes that they will get them through another work week. Anyone hear of Lucas? Going fast or well is not in the British lexicon outside of the few upper crust and competition drivers. And a few nuts that show up on Youtube. Its interesting to see that Ford may be the ultimate winner in this whole deal. The Ford family saw the handwriting on the wall about a decade ago and started shedding costs and unprofitable product lines. They may end up getting back where they were before Henry shut down the plant to retool and let GM get out front. Will be fun to watch. And yes, Corvette is just a Chevette with a couple of letters changed. The Chevette forms the low end of the cost / performance spectrum for the bow tie while Corvette forms the other end of the spectrum. But its still a Chevy and no Ford guy would be caught dead in one. Or so we claim.

Thanks for the thoughts, and I would generally agree. Brand loyalty is big with the traditional GM buyers.

The problem facing GM is how to satisfy the brand loyal buyers, and attract new ones it needs. As it is, operating all these brands to keep brand loyal buyers is sinking them. So on the one hand, you hate to lose the buyers, on the other, if you cannot attract new ones it doesn’t matter.

Plus, Gen X and Y tend to not be brand loyal at all, and will skip all over. For them, you do not need a lot of brands for different loyalties, since either will, or will not buy whatever brand you put out there, and may skip between them if you have multiple (and thus causing you to compete against yourself).

I did read a number of years ago that the brand strategy for Saturn was to be an entry level brand, with buyers who wanted to step up from their Saturn’s being aimed towards Oldsmobile. Maybe it is coincidence, but the last generation of Olds, the Alero, Intrigue, etc, did have some resemblance to the Saturn SL/SC/SW in appearance. If this was their strategy, however, it certainly was NOT apparent to owners, or made so thru marketing or any kind of dealer proximity. I disagree about it being a mistake to chase the entry level Japanese cars with the brand. The brand was unique to GM, and initially very effective. The failure was, in 200, they were still selling essentially the same car they started with in 1990, while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan had all come out with 2 more generations of their entry level offerings. Then, to really kill off Saturn, they release the quirky and cheap Ion, which was given odd quirks just to be different (seriously, things like the center IP were done to try and make the car stand out, without regard of customer opinion). The center IP bombed, the interior looked odd and was horribly cheap, the car drove far worse than competitors, and other than attracting those loyal customers had no market significance.

Now they may be copying Opel design queues, but the idea is really to give those entry level loyal Saturn buyers bigger, nicer products to step up to on the Saturn dealer. The failing here is that a ton of those buyers left the brand years ago, and the brand has not reached out effectively to new buyers with it’s new lineup. It’s also still not a full line car brand, since they still have a small and large car, flanked by a pair of crossovers and a sports car.

I still think there could be value in the brand, having the unique dealer network with great customer reviews. However, you need products in the showroom that are really going to generate interest, and you need to get the word out on them… and both are costly and risky. Especially considering putting the same great product in a Chevy showroom will likely sell in higher volumes, even if the dealers are not as well liked, simply because Chevy is a far more well known and recognized brand and therefore it is easier to gain market awareness.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Fformula88 That's definately a reality as far as Saturn is concerned, and one reason for it's demise. I would not accept it as an excuse, but it is what it is. As for kappa, there likely won't be a Solstice, Sky, or kappa beyond 2012 when Wilmington is set to lose the product unless they restart the engineering and design work on the second generation car soon. The usefulness of the current platform will eventually come to an end because of legistalive changes in federally mandated requirements, and by 2012 the current platform will be awfully long in the tooth compared to the pace of increasingly stringent government mandates. I do agree with the Vibe and G5. Not sure where you go with Vibe, since you would need a Toyota drivetrain for a GXP version, and I don't see much in the way of high performance out of that company. The G5 would be far easier, but apparently corporate politics has Chevy hording the DI 2.0L's for it's HHR's and Cobalts.

Toyota could shop for a performance drive train. It's not like Subaru, Mazda, or Mitsubishi don't have AWDs sitting on their shelves. Rebrand it from the Matrix to a Scion performance hatchback and profit.

Stupid question since I've never been there, but is Wilmington large enough (facility & supplier base) to support another product line in addition to kappas?

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by Snugglebear Toyota could shop for a performance drive train. It's not like Subaru, Mazda, or Mitsubishi don't have AWDs sitting on their shelves. Rebrand it from the Matrix to a Scion performance hatchback and profit. Stupid question since I've never been there, but is Wilmington large enough (facility & supplier base) to support another product line in addition to kappas?

Toyota could pirate a Subaru drivetrain, but I am not sure GM would be interested. They already tried that with the Saab 9-2x before they sold their share of Subaru to Toyota.

I really couldn't tell. I know kappa takes up a small percentage of the overall Wilmington floorspace. However, there could be limitations in specific areas, such as the paint shop. Going way back, my understanding of kappa was that they intended multiple products in the plant to make the platform more viable, hence concepts such as the Nomad (and that 2+2 Saturn coupe) at the 2004 NAIAS. However, that would also have necessitated a second version of the platform with a longer wheelbase, which would have meant a lot more engineering costs which GM figured would not be a wise investment based on their expected market for the 2+2 kappas.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Fformula88 Toyota could pirate a Subaru drivetrain, but I am not sure GM would be interested. They already tried that with the Saab 9-2x before they sold their share of Subaru to Toyota. I really couldn't tell. I know kappa takes up a small percentage of the overall Wilmington floorspace. However, there could be limitations in specific areas, such as the paint shop. Going way back, my understanding of kappa was that they intended multiple products in the plant to make the platform more viable, hence concepts such as the Nomad (and that 2+2 Saturn coupe) at the 2004 NAIAS. However, that would also have necessitated a second version of the platform with a longer wheelbase, which would have meant a lot more engineering costs which GM figured would not be a wise investment based on their expected market for the 2+2 kappas.

GM simply slapped a Saab badge on the WRX and called it a 9-2x. I think it's been beaten to death by myself and others how bad rebadge engineering is received by the public, so lets just say it was not successful nor would it have ever been. Taking a part, however, may work. But still, Toyota isn't exactly into performance cars and aside from Scion really doesn't have much of a place for that type of thing. The point is that a Vibe GXP is possible, just not very likely, as it would be going against entrenched Subaru, Mitsubishi, Mazda, and Honda/Acura models (debatable).

What I'm reading into your statement about Wilmington is that it could hold other product lines if GM needed it to. Not saying GM needs to nor that it should be spared in exchange for another plant, just trying to see if it could be used for something else.