Ominous news about Solstice, courtesy Mark LeNeve...

[WoWwii]

Alot of you say keep the G8, but I don't understand what this will do for GM workers here, the car is IMPORTED from Austrailia.

Another thing I don't understand, how can a Union force a plant to stay open (contract or no contract) if they don't have the finacial backing to do so?

[dengel]

Originally Posted by WoWwii Alot of you say keep the G8, but I don't understand what this will do for GM workers here, the car is IMPORTED from Austrailia. Another thing I don't understand, how can a Union force a plant to stay open (contract or no contract) if they don't have the finacial backing to do so?

I believe there was some plan to move G8 production to Canada for future model years - I don't know if this was rumor or fact, or when the change would happen.

As far as union contracts, the UAW probably wouldn't be able to force a plant to "stay open" as in operating and producing cars, but if there is a UAW contract guaranteeing those employees work and/or pay for a specific timeframe, then there could be financial penalties to the manufacturer for closing that plant and laying off those workers.

[Fformula88]

The G8 doesn't do much for American workers, but if it is profitable for GM to sell here and helps GM regain a profitable vehicle lineup, it's benefits would be helping make the corporation stronger as a whole, which would benefit workers building cars domestically.

[rob the elder]

I got the Solstice book for Christmas and am just about through it. Very interesting.

The Sol was designed on the cheap, and in half the time of a normal GM car design life cycle. It reuses a lot of parts from other global parts bins.

It was designed for low rate production. 40K a year max. 20 K Sols, 10 K Sky and 10K Opal.

They chose hydro forming because it saved them tens of millions of dollars. And because they can get a lot more draw out of a piece of metal than with "normal" stamping.

The tools are good for 20k parts, then they have to buy new tooling. So they had built into the production cycle new tooling for major body panels every 6 months for each car.

They do hand welding and assembly instead of robots to save money. Its a lot cheaper to pay workers an hourly rate to do the welding and assembly than to pay for the robots. They had a budget of $100M for tooling and factory setup. The only way they could bring the Kappa to production was to find cheaper ways of building it.

When they announced the Sol, Mazda sold 8000 units in the previous 12 months. In the first few months of the Sol they had orders for 40k units. They really were not ready for that level of demand.

Before they could go to market, the Sol team had to prove that they would make money on the production run. It was never a "loss leader". It was something that everyone had a lot of passion about and they really wanted to make it work, but even Lutz could not have gotten the car into production unless the numbers closed at a profit.

Lutz told the team that roadsers, even limited production roadsters, would have a large volume during the first few years, but as all the enthusiasts got their cars, the demand would drop down. They worked the coup in the intitial plan for production. The timing was predicated on when the knee of the demand curve was reached. As demand started to level off or drop, they would introduce the coupe to capture new parts of the market.

When the first Sol show car was hand cobbled together, and they showed it to Lutz, they had the coup in the same hanger to show to Lutz. It was before they even had a product or an engineering team at all. It was just a show car. The coup was foam with paint making it look like a car but there was not an actual part in the car. The pictures are in the book.

If the Sol line stays open it will be because its cheap and profitable. Its possible that it can be kept running at 20K units and each unit will make money. The argument against it staying open is if the demand drops below the profit point or the cost of keeping the factory facility open gets too high. Acconding to the book, the factory is much larget than is needed or used by the Sol production and has inherent facility costs that might break the program.

The Sol was aimed at the non-Corvette market. It was designed to cost less than half the cost of a Corvette. The fact that one mentions the Sol GXP in the same breath with the Corvette is just proof that the design team did a great job with the Sol.

In 2006 GM already had the 2.0 making 1300 HP in specific applications. Taking them to 400 - 500 hp is easily in the cards for after market houses. There is an article in Hot Rod Magazine that is quoted in the book. GM engineers supported HRM with design work to install a V8 into an NA Sol. It pulled 1.03G on the skid pad and was as quick and fast as any factory Vette. And it kept the weight distribution at 52/48! I found that very interesting.

I think that the biggest threat to continued Sol production is cost of parts. The production build is so small that to get the supplier costs down, GM procurement had to get creative in bundling the small production run numbers for Sol parts with larger runs for other cars. Vendors were set up to provide 200K parts a year, and did not like providing 20K parts.

That and the life of the tooling, though the basic tools are good for years, they need new dies every 20K parts.

In my opinion what it comes down to is how long can they continue to make money on the car. I think that they will continue to make them as long as they are making a profit even if its relatively small.

[Boil]

Just as long as I get my Coupe in 2010…!

But until then, back to reading forum posts and going over the mods checklist…

[perris]

Originally Posted by rob the elder I got the Solstice book for Christmas and am just about through it. Very interesting. The Sol was designed on the cheap, and in half the time of a normal GM car design life cycle. It reuses a lot of parts from other global parts bins. It was designed for low rate production. 40K a year max. 20 K Sols, 10 K Sky and 10K Opal. They chose hydro forming because it saved them tens of millions of dollars. And because they can get a lot more draw out of a piece of metal than with "normal" stamping. The tools are good for 20k parts, then they have to buy new tooling. So they had built into the production cycle new tooling for major body panels every 6 months for each car. They do hand welding and assembly instead of robots to save money. Its a lot cheaper to pay workers an hourly rate to do the welding and assembly than to pay for the robots. They had a budget of $100M for tooling and factory setup. The only way they could bring the Kappa to production was to find cheaper ways of building it. When they announced the Sol, Mazda sold 8000 units in the previous 12 months. In the first few months of the Sol they had orders for 40k units. They really were not ready for that level of demand. Before they could go to market, the Sol team had to prove that they would make money on the production run. It was never a "loss leader". It was something that everyone had a lot of passion about and they really wanted to make it work, but even Lutz could not have gotten the car into production unless the numbers closed at a profit. Lutz told the team that roadsers, even limited production roadsters, would have a large volume during the first few years, but as all the enthusiasts got their cars, the demand would drop down. They worked the coup in the intitial plan for production. The timing was predicated on when the knee of the demand curve was reached. As demand started to level off or drop, they would introduce the coupe to capture new parts of the market. When the first Sol show car was hand cobbled together, and they showed it to Lutz, they had the coup in the same hanger to show to Lutz. It was before they even had a product or an engineering team at all. It was just a show car. The coup was foam with paint making it look like a car but there was not an actual part in the car. The pictures are in the book. If the Sol line stays open it will be because its cheap and profitable. Its possible that it can be kept running at 20K units and each unit will make money. The argument against it staying open is if the demand drops below the profit point or the cost of keeping the factory facility open gets too high. Acconding to the book, the factory is much larget than is needed or used by the Sol production and has inherent facility costs that might break the program. The Sol was aimed at the non-Corvette market. It was designed to cost less than half the cost of a Corvette. The fact that one mentions the Sol GXP in the same breath with the Corvette is just proof that the design team did a great job with the Sol. In 2006 GM already had the 2.0 making 1300 HP in specific applications. Taking them to 400 - 500 hp is easily in the cards for after market houses. There is an article in Hot Rod Magazine that is quoted in the book. GM engineers supported HRM with design work to install a V8 into an NA Sol. It pulled 1.03G on the skid pad and was as quick and fast as any factory Vette. And it kept the weight distribution at 52/48! I found that very interesting. I think that the biggest threat to continued Sol production is cost of parts. The production build is so small that to get the supplier costs down, GM procurement had to get creative in bundling the small production run numbers for Sol parts with larger runs for other cars. Vendors were set up to provide 200K parts a year, and did not like providing 20K parts. That and the life of the tooling, though the basic tools are good for years, they need new dies every 20K parts. In my opinion what it comes down to is how long can they continue to make money on the car. I think that they will continue to make them as long as they are making a profit even if its relatively small.

one of the most enjoyable posts I have read on this forum, thanx

[MomsSol]

Originally Posted by perris one of the most enjoyable posts I have read on this forum, thanx

I found it informative and insightful. Thanks rob!

[LBJay]

Originally Posted by SolsticeMan Nobody who is the target market for a Solstice/SKY/MX-5 can qualify for financing - nor is a toy car in the vehicle purchase consideration for someone who can't barely make their cable bill.....

It would appear that the Solstice is targeted at a different market then the Miata. GM may not have learned from Mazda's experience.

Mazda introduced the Miata, advertised to young singles looking for a peppy but inexpensive sports car. Sales were brisk, but after three years the Miata’s largest owner group was the 55+ crowd. Amazed, Mazda brass finally figured out that those aging Boomers were shedding their practical but dumpy minivans and climbing into something (guess what?) sporty but inexpensive.

Youngsters buy used Miata. Us old farts buy the new ones.

[JimmyMood]

Originally Posted by Fformula88 Bloomberg is reporting, based on discussion with Mark LeNeve, GM North America Sales Chief, that Pontiac would likely be shrunk down to one model, a low volume, high desirable sports model akin to Corvette... and that the model would likely be the G8 sports sedan. (Although which model is speculative) Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

Okay, so my million dollar question.....

Pontiac goes to a 1 brand marque and it is not the Solstice. The plant is mothballed or switched over to produce something else which would be a shame in so many aspects. Short term, does our resale value go up as an instant classic or down, ala Chrysler Crossfire? I'm thinking something like a bathtub curve, a quick plummet that sits low for many years and then comes back up when current owners retire and become nostalgic.

I'm asking for perspective as a guy looking to do a GXP upgrade one of these days, though I'm all talk for the moment.

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by JimmyMood Okay, so my million dollar question..... Pontiac goes to a 1 brand marque and it is not the Solstice. The plant is mothballed or switched over to produce something else which would be a shame in so many aspects. Short term, does our resale value go up as an instant classic or down, ala Chrysler Crossfire? I'm thinking something like a bathtub curve, a quick plummet that sits low for many years and then comes back up when current owners retire and become nostalgic. I'm asking for perspective as a guy looking to do a GXP upgrade one of these days, though I'm all talk for the moment.

You will get a lot of opinions on this… and they are in fact just opinions. There is no way to accurately predict future resale values.

In the short term, all resale values are heading down, regardless of whether a car is cancelled or not. It is economy driven, and there are just too many cars and too few buyers.

Once normal economic conditions resume, it will simply be an issue of supply and demand.

Taking the Crossfire as an example, there was just way too many units, and far too demand for it’s MSRP. (In the mid $30K range for a coupe, roadsters topping $40K). This isn’t necessarily a sign of overproduction either… although overproduction could be an issue (it is at the moment for the Solstice, with GM having a years supply on the ground). With Crossfire, the car just was not competitive in all aspects with other similarly priced sports cars. It’s power was lower than a 350Z, press reviews criticized it’s handling and steering compared to competitors, and many felt it’s interior did not justify the price tag. Chrysler did try a stripper model with a lower price a couple years in, but it only gained modest traction. Right now, there are dealers who still have left over, new, 2007 and 2008 MY Crossfires with asking prices that are $15K to $20K BELOW MSRP, and there is still little demand. So if you can buy a brand new Crossfire with all the bells and whistles for around $21K (Loaded limited coupe is about $38K MSRP), how much will you pay for a 4 year old one with 40K miles… especially knowing mechanically it is a Mercedes, parts and maintenance is expensive, Chrysler dealers have a spotty rep for repairing them and many Merc service dept’s are turning Chrysler owners away? Not much.

However, Solstice’s issues are different. There is too many at the moment for the current market conditions, but it isn’t vastly overpriced to start with compared to competitors. I doubt it would have as drastic of a devaluation.

I have a lot of long time knowledge about the Fiero too, and can use it as an example which also could be somewhat similar. The Fiero was cancelled after 5 model years. In 1990, you could get an 87 Fiero (3 years old) with 36K miles for about half of it’s original MSRP. That’s fairly typical depreciation for a GM car IMO. I bought my 88 Fiero in 97 at 20% of it’s original MSRP… so values continued to depreciate. Now that we are 20+ years beyond production, some values seem to have risen somewhat. That could just be inflationary pressure too. I’ve seen asking prices for >1000 mile 88 GT’s, the most desirable model, around $30K. New they probably were around $16K give or take. That looks like appreciation, but I bet that at best it is just keeping pace with inflation.

With the Solstice, in the short term, resale has taken a hit as it has for all cars. A search through autotrader shows a number of GXP’s with asking prices below $20K and very low mileage. Once the economy picks up, regardless of production, I suspect resale will bounce back some. However, I would not expect a big boost or drop based on the production status either. It all depends on how much demand returns to this aging roadster (and for a sports car, it is getting old, as styling wears out in the market on sports cars quickly).

Sorry for the wordy response!

[Tribewolf]

I'm no classic car investment expert by any means. But I think 20 years from now the GXP has a pretty good shot at being viewed favorably for resale. For one, they are race proven. They have a classic roadster style. Plus the amount of power for the money is good and they can so easily be modded both mechanically and aesthetically.

Think of all the basic bolt on body mods, engine mods, and interior mods there are for the car now. The molds, dies, and specs for those things are not likely to totally disappear any time soon.

I don't go anywhere without every 10 year old kid and 30 year old man staring in awe at my car. Those are the same people who will remember it and want one 20+ years from now. The kid will buy a beater cheap and hot rod it up and the man will buy a clean stock one with low miles and baby it the rest of his life. They are the people who will drive the demand and the decrease in availability over time will work in conjunction with them to increase the value. How much though is anybody's guess really.

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by Tribewolf I'm no classic car investment expert by any means. But I think 20 years from now the GXP has a pretty good shot at being viewed favorably for resale. For one, they are race proven. They have a classic roadster style. Plus the amount of power for the money is good and they can so easily be modded both mechanically and aesthetically. Think of all the basic bolt on body mods, engine mods, and interior mods there are for the car now. The molds, dies, and specs for those things are not likely to totally disappear any time soon. I don't go anywhere without every 10 year old kid and 30 year old man staring in awe at my car. Those are the same people who will remember it and want one 20+ years from now. The kid will buy a beater cheap and hot rod it up and the man will buy a clean stock one with low miles and baby it the rest of his life. They are the people who will drive the demand and the decrease in availability over time will work in conjunction with them to increase the value. How much though is anybody's guess really.

Oh, they may be desirable for a price, but really, I cannot see them commanding huge prices. There are lots of cars that in 20 years will be desirable to people wishing to own, drive, and modify them... the question is will they pay a premium and sacrafice the chance at a newer vehicle for it? I doubt it... since it happens with an extremely few number of vehicles.

They won't be worthless, but I wouldn't count on buying the car because of any sort of investment hopes either, with a good rate on return.

For comparison, take a Corvette. The brand name has a huge pedigree, and as much racing success as anything. Yet, you can still get an older 'Vette in relatively good shape for a relatively inexpensive price.

[achieftain]

Originally Posted by WoWwii Alot of you say keep the G8, but I don't understand what this will do for GM workers here, the car is IMPORTED from Austrailia.

Building the Camaro in Oshawa does nothing for the average American UAW member, either. Different Union, besides different government getting tax dollars. Consumers have been purchasing vehicles produced in other countries all along, and I'm not just talking Canada - look at how many vehicles are completely produced in Mexico, Dodge Ram's for a flagrant example. And look at our precious Sol GXP, engine from Germany, tranny and rear end definitely NOT from our shores -maybe Asia, maybe Middle East, maybe Antarctica, for all we know. And what about the steel in the body? Odds are in favor of it being sourced from a t best an electric furnace in Japan, at worst coal belching sweat shop in China or India.

Originally Posted by dengel I believe there was some plan to move G8 production to Canada for future model years - I don't know if this was rumor or fact, or when the change would happen.

All rumor. Any factuality hinged on a rwd Impala to be built in Oshawa and using some excess line for the G8. But a rwd Impala is off the books and all American cop cars will continue to be Crown Vics.

Now if you want a rumor: since almost all of the design AND engineering of the Camaro was performed by Holden then without extreme concessions from the CAW then it makes perfect economic sense to build the Camaro alongside the G8 in Oz.


BTW, the corporate axe is already falling: the Sport Truck variant of the G8 is now completely flatlined. The Torrent was cancelled last year already and the 2009 is simply a bonus year. The Vibe outsells the Corvette, outsells all Kappas combined, and the new version is flying out of the showrooms so fast dealers wonder why GM included them in sales events.

Here's a sugestion or two that will never fly - simply becasue their minds are made up. Pontiac does not have to shrink to only one or two models. It does not even have to become RWD exclusive. There is plenty of performance, and economy, in Saab 9-3 and 9-5 that could be facelifted with the trademark twin grill and whose sales would miraculously double or triple. Go a step further and instead of GM selling Saab, it buys Volvo, combines the two, sells them as V and S elsewhere but solely and uniquely as Pontiac, here. There could come a time (if GM wants to turn its back on over 100,000 per year G6's or import the Opel Insignia as same) when all Pontiacs are built overseas - but that in no way has to mean teh end of the brand.

[Tribewolf]

They won't be worthless, but I wouldn't count on buying the car because of any sort of investment hopes either, with a good rate on return.

I should have said, "I think 20 years from now the GXP has a pretty good shot at being viewed favorably for resale" and added - IF they are suddenly not being built anymore this year or next.

That's certainly not why I bought mine. You just never know. Who would have thought the god awful '70 Roadrunner Superbird would be worth what it is today?

[Fformula88]

The Road Runner is a good example of a car that has become highly sought after... and a good example of why a car like the Solstice has less of a chance. It is exclusivity.

Each model of the 440 six pack Road Runner had production numbers in the hundreds. In 1970, for example, 651 Road Runner 2 door coupes were built with the 440 Six Pack. Other versions had similar or lower figures (only 34 convertables!). How many Superbirds? Supposedly only 763 total. It is likely that very few good examples have survived... and those kinds of low volumes and low survivability are key factors in driving high resale values for classic muscle.

The Sol GXP has been produced in the thousands, and across multiple model years without any major changes to differentiate or make them nearly that rare. Plus, a lot of people these days won't be driving them a lot, or in winter. Plus, in general, cars hold up better to use than they did then anyway. So in 20 years, there will be far more Solstice GXP's around in good shape than there are the rarest of the classic muscle today... and that kind of supply will make it difficult to really command high prices for them.