Things are really really bad at GM

[mena661]

And it wasn't because of 'battery supply'.

I thought that sounded a little BS also. IMO, everyone that wanted a Prius got one and demand settled back down to normal.

[ChilliSol]

Originally Posted by mena661 I thought that sounded a little BS also. IMO, everyone that wanted a Prius got one and demand settled back down to normal.

I see the us auto industry going the way of the steel industry did ...goverment imo did not do enough to protect us intrest in the us stillmills,by letting in cheap over seas steel and the same thing is happening with the auto industry..

I like how the goverment spout off about patrotism support the troops and country but where is the loyolty to Gm did they not shutdown plant in ww1 and 2 to build trucks varries other things for the war.Now it is the time that the goverment shows it support for people or companies that supported them.

[rob the elder]

The congress is full of professional idiots who are driving our country into the ditch.
The problems with the big three were generated and a direct result of the democrats , starting with Carter that example of leadership, and continued through the Clinton fiasco when the democratic congress first created - then force fed with federal dollars fanniemay and freddiemack. They forced lenders to loan money to people who could not pay them back. They incentivized the banks to do stupid things and when the Bush administration started blowing the whistle Barney "I never saw a loophole I did not like" Frank (I did not know that he was a prostitute living in my house!) told the wraskley wrepublicans to sit down and shut up!

A constant stream of democratic insiders rotated through these government funded gold mines and made hundreds of millions of dollars and set up the entire banking industry for the current crash.

They over regulated the auto industry to the point where they removed their competitive advantages here.

Then with the banking crash, the credit that the auto builders depend on to finance their products sale dried up. The problem is NOT nearly as much that the B3 screwed up as the freaking democrats sold out the country with the collusion of a lot of republicans

But get off the big three as the total and sole culprets here. Sure mistakes are made. But they are so constrained by the government regulations and now boxed in by the lack of credit that they are screwed any which way they turn.

Also as to the corporate aircraft. Personally I would prefer that the HIGHEST PAID and MOST PRODUCTIVE individuals in the company NOT be spending time driving somewhere or standing in line at an airport. I want them working their butts off all the time.

And . . while you may be celebrating the cutting of corporate aircraft fleets, you should also be celebrating the loss of jobs for the hundreds of people who depended on those same corporate aircraft fleets for their jobs.

GM cut 50 high paid jobs. These jobs were also feeding several hundred other jobs, in aircraft maintenance, aircraft spare parts manufacturing, fuel distribution, data management . . . that whole supply chain that these jobs represented. You cheering for them being out of work too?

Go get pissed off at congress and Clinton and Carter and the people who voted for the morons in congress who set up this mess.

Then look at who is up there on capitol hill telling the freemarket how they will conduct business in the future. Its the same idiots and thieves who got us into this mess in the first place.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[redragtop]

I just need to post this as well after reading so many automotive bashing remarks from those only getting their info from Fox and CNN. There's the news that's interesting and disturbing then there's the facts...

7 myths about Detroit automakers
BY MARK PHELAN * FREE PRESS COLUMNIST * December 5, 2008

This column by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan originally was published
on Nov. 17 and has been updated.

The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with
half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone
from members of Congress to journalists. Here are seven myths about the
companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Reality: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5
million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the
world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States
last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of nearly 700,000 so far this
year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling
9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million
vehicles in the United States last year.

Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007
and so far this year.

Reality: The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone.
Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par
with
good Japanese automakers."

The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac,
Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality
as high as or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion,
Volkswagen and Volvo.

J.D. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan.
Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and
Toyota Camry.

Reality: All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans that the
Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the
highway.

The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2
m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus
has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota
Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel
economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid
Honda Civic.

A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is
the least expensive car to buy and operate.

Reality: None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a
year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles
and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the
companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.

Reality: The domestics' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan,
Mercedes-Benz and BMW have spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs
because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto
industry.

The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all
have higher EPA fuel-economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size
pickups.

Reality: The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and
GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several
more due to hit the road in early 2009.

Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North
America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which
measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most
productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford
or GM.

The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers
inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of
current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's
like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits
in addition to your own income.

Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about
$14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or
health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly
compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable
with
Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.

Contact MARK PHELAN at 313-222-6731 or <mailto:phelan@freepress.com>
phelan@freepress.com.


I would like to add that in the past year I have traveled across the country and Mexico to many GM plants. I have to say I am amazed how few actual GM UAW workers are there. Most all the jobs I watched were automated. There was two maybe three guys working lines from 20 to 100 yards (meters) long. I came from the school of hard knocks in a Ford factory in the 70's. Yes, that image we all think about was present at that time. That image has slowly faded away beginning with the competition of the Japane automobile in the late 70's early 80's. Sure there's some guys out there reading the paper too long in a corner but believe me I didn't see anyone goofing off in any of my visits. Nevertheless there are still people out there I sometimes see in their cubicles with Bachelor's and Master's degrees looking at their stock trades or last night's hockey/football score on their PC. I've seen this in the U.S., U.K., Germany, and CA.

Just my 2c but the Congress needs to stop calling the kettle black. I've been in automotive all my life and specifically, at GM, Ford, and Cr LLC I have seen belt tightning, streamlining, layoffs, shutdowns, plant knockdowns, re-tooling, car class elimination, lean manufacturing, exponentially higher quality, and global expansion since 1998.

I've worked for suppliers of all three as well as German and Japanese companies. Beleve me not all the parts of your cars are made in Mexico and very few are made here in the states. Nevertheless the parts are made to international design and quality standards and then GM raises the the bar to their standards. Unless you've owned European and Japanese cars, do not compare the quality. ALL the car companies have lemons and they know it.

Yes, I believe GM and the others have a heavy debt to pay in insurance and pensions for our parent's and grandparent's wo worked there. Its absolutely HUGE. I could only have a wish if a safety net like that for myself and my kids. Thanks to all my hard work and self-paid education I have only to look for social security from a failed government. The last four of five companies I worked for has laid me off and closed their doors for bankrupcy or downsizing and leaving the U.S. for a plant in Asia. I'm sure all thse big three bashing self-salary raising congressmen will not be worried of their retirement.

Yes, Ford, GM, and Chrysler all built many things besides cars and trucks for WW2. One of the first tanks was powered by a model T engine and I remember a few miles away from me my father used to talk about the bombers coming out of GM in Will Run flying over his house. Also look up the GM WW2 fighter aircraft.

[gbslysol]

Originally Posted by redragtop I just need to post this as well after reading so many automotive bashing remarks from those only getting their info from Fox and CNN. There's the news that's interesting and disturbing then there's the facts... 7 myths about Detroit automakers BY MARK PHELAN * FREE PRESS COLUMNIST * December 5, 2008 This column by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan originally was published on Nov. 17 and has been updated. The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are seven myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case. Reality: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of nearly 700,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota. Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year. Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year. Reality: The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high as or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo. J.D. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry. Reality: All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans that the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate. Reality: None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now. Reality: The domestics' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel-economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups. Reality: The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009. Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM. The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income. Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis. Contact MARK PHELAN at 313-222-6731 or <mailto:phelan@freepress.com> phelan@freepress.com. I would like to add that in the past year I have traveled across the country and Mexico to many GM plants. I have to say I am amazed how few actual GM UAW workers are there. Most all the jobs I watched were automated. There was two maybe three guys working lines from 20 to 100 yards (meters) long. I came from the school of hard knocks in a Ford factory in the 70's. Yes, that image we all think about was present at that time. That image has slowly faded away beginning with the competition of the Japane automobile in the late 70's early 80's. Sure there's some guys out there reading the paper too long in a corner but believe me I didn't see anyone goofing off in any of my visits. Nevertheless there are still people out there I sometimes see in their cubicles with Bachelor's and Master's degrees looking at their stock trades or last night's hockey/football score on their PC. I've seen this in the U.S., U.K., Germany, and CA. Just my 2c but the Congress needs to stop calling the kettle black. I've been in automotive all my life and specifically, at GM, Ford, and Cr LLC I have seen belt tightning, streamlining, layoffs, shutdowns, plant knockdowns, re-tooling, car class elimination, lean manufacturing, exponentially higher quality, and global expansion since 1998. I've worked for suppliers of all three as well as German and Japanese companies. Beleve me not all the parts of your cars are made in Mexico and very few are made here in the states. Nevertheless the parts are made to international design and quality standards and then GM raises the the bar to their standards. Unless you've owned European and Japanese cars, do not compare the quality. ALL the car companies have lemons and they know it. Yes, I believe GM and the others have a heavy debt to pay in insurance and pensions for our parent's and grandparent's wo worked there. Its absolutely HUGE. I could only have a wish if a safety net like that for myself and my kids. Thanks to all my hard work and self-paid education I have only to look for social security from a failed government. The last four of five companies I worked for has laid me off and closed their doors for bankrupcy or downsizing and leaving the U.S. for a plant in Asia. I'm sure all thse big three bashing self-salary raising congressmen will not be worried of their retirement. Yes, Ford, GM, and Chrysler all built many things besides cars and trucks for WW2. One of the first tanks was powered by a model T engine and I remember a few miles away from me my father used to talk about the bombers coming out of GM in Will Run flying over his house. Also look up the GM WW2 fighter aircraft.

Excellent post redragtop!!!

[bradyb]

On a positive note, I picked up a very clean 07 LT3 Tahoe for $17,000 with 40K miles last night to replace the Charger for our growing family. $17K wholesale is amazing for for a car that was purchased new two years ago for $46,000.