Why haven't we run out of oil, yet?

[solcaptain]

Originally Posted by Genseis If ya don't like the price of fuel then quit driving

This conversation isn't so much a statement on the price of oil, but an expression on the frustrations many of us feel in regards to the progress that has been made by automakers, and even more so our goverment who has the power to regulate these automakers, in developing technologies that are efficient, good for the environment, and provide our great nation with energy independence. These are issues that seem to only become important to our lawmakers in an election year

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by solcaptain This conversation isn't so much a statement on the price of oil, but an expression on the frustrations many of us feel in regards to the progress that has been made by automakers, and even more so our goverment who has the power to regulate these automakers, in developing technologies that are efficient, good for the environment, and provide our great nation with energy independence. These are issues that seem to only become important to our lawmakers in an election year

Call me a blind-eyed optimist and a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian, but let's get the government out of the autmotive regulation business and let the market drive this.

"That government that governs least governs best."

[solcaptain]

Originally Posted by Chemist Call me a blind-eyed optimist and a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian, but let's get the government out of the autmotive regulation business and let the market drive this. "That government that governs least governs best."

The market did a great job driving the lending of subprime mortgages too...

[StevieG]

Originally Posted by solcaptain The market did a great job driving the lending of subprime mortgages too...

Blame for the "market" in terms of subprime lending include both the lenders and the folks who could not afford the amount of mortgage for the income and credit that they have/had. Simply put, the folks who got caught in the subprime nightmare really need to have been more fiscally responsible.
Simply put, the lenders who got caught in the subprime nightmare really were greedy and not fiscally responsible.
Why have the government bail both of them out of their own fiscal irresponsibility?

[solcaptain]

Originally Posted by StevieG Blame for the "market" in terms of subprime lending include both the lenders and the folks who could not afford the amount of mortgage for the income and credit that they have/had. Simply put, the folks who got caught in the subprime nightmare really need to have been more fiscally responsible. Simply put, the lenders who got caught in the subprime nightmare really were greedy and not fiscally responsible. Why have the government bail both of them out of their own fiscal irresponsibility?

Who said anything about a bailout?

My point is that, if the market does not have the capability to regulating itself, then someone has to do it. Lenders are responsible, as are those people who took out these ill advised loans. But the problems that these lenders and borrowers created has extended far beyond those that gave or accepted these loans. Credit has tightened significantly, the dollar has plunged, and housing values have dropped significantly in many parts of the country. That's a really big deal if you have great credit, bought a home in a place like LA in 2005, and have to sell your home for $100,000 less than you paid for it just two years ago. Few of us like paying for the sins of others.

Getting back to the original topic of oil and energy, if the government determines that, in the best interest of our nation, cars must use alternative fuels, get better mileage, or be cleaner for the environment, then they must act on these interests and mandate such changes even at the protest of the corporations themselves. We already do this with our safety and crash test standards, why not also regulate mileage and the use of alternative fuels/power sources? We can put a man on the moon but we cannot mass produce an affordable electric car? When profit driven corporations resist moving down the path toward energy independence for America, then we should make them walk the path.

[Critterman]

Just be glad you don't live in England where a liter of gas is now over a pound. Some quick conversions

1 pound = $1.98029
1 liter = .264172052 gallon

so 1 gallon = 3.785411 and 12 more numbers so for simplicity we will say 4 liters since fuel us over a ppund and we are figuring at a pound.

1 gallon of gas = $7.92 or $102.98 to put 13 gallons of REGULAR is our babies

[mena661]

We can put a man on the moon but we cannot mass produce an affordable electric car? When profit driven corporations resist moving down the path toward energy independence for America, then we should make them walk the path.

You don't sound like you really understand what takes to put a reliable car on the road. It really takes a ton of R&D, even using proven technology. The automakers want to make the cars are reliable before they're sent out to the public. Cars have to last OVER 100k miles and must be able to be driven from the Arctic Circle to Death Valley without issue or even so much as a hiccup. Everything inside the car from the batteries to the exhaust tips must be able to withstand the abuses that us common folks put our cars through. Unfortunately, batteries that can stand up to those kind of abuses cost a ton of money. The automaker isn't going to shoulder the entire cost of that tech. Not to mention they still need to turn a profit otherwise why stay in business?

[solcaptain]

[quote=mena661;668625]You don't sound like you really understand what takes to put a reliable car on the road. It really takes a ton of R&D, even using proven technology.

You have just made my point. The government has spent countless dollars on the space program (national security during the cold war and the space race). The government spent countless dollars to develop nuclear power and the nuclear bomb (the manhatten project). The government has spent countless dollars in Iraq (WMD's), the war on drugs (Columbia), and the development and production of the stealth bomber (1+ billion a copy x 21 copies), the Joint Strike Fighter (256 billion project and counting), and the F-22 Raptor (28 billion spent for R and D alone, Air Force wants 181 aircraft @ approx. $339 mil EACH). When the US government can spend that kind of money on National Security, wouldn't it be smart to use some of that kind of money in a cooperative effort with the American Auto Industry and other corporations to develop vehicles to gradually eliminate our dependence on foreign oil? Instead we send our money to Middle Eastern countries that don't like us...

[jrdallas]

[quote=solcaptain;668645]

Originally Posted by mena661 You don't sound like you really understand what takes to put a reliable car on the road. It really takes a ton of R&D, even using proven technology. You have just made my point. The government has spent countless dollars on the space program (national security during the cold war and the space race). The government spent countless dollars to develop nuclear power and the nuclear bomb (the manhatten project). The government has spent countless dollars in Iraq (WMD's), the war on drugs (Columbia), and the development and production of the stealth bomber (1+ billion a copy x 21 copies), the Joint Strike Fighter (256 billion project and counting), and the F-22 Raptor (28 billion spent for R and D alone, Air Force wants 181 aircraft @ approx. $339 mil EACH). When the US government can spend that kind of money on National Security, wouldn't it be smart to use some of that kind of money in a cooperative effort with the American Auto Industry and other corporations to develop vehicles to gradually eliminate our dependence on foreign oil? Instead we send our money to Middle Eastern countries that don't like us...

So, it's just a lack of spending more money that's keeping us from replacing oil as the primary source of energy? You don't think billions and billions have already been spent by governments and industries around the world to find alternative sources of energy? What about other countries like Japan, Germany, etc. They're even more dependent than us. Why haven't they developed that oil replacement technology? I'd love to have a cheap alternative fuel so we could tell the ME to pound sand. I believe there are plenty of smart people already trying their best to figure it out. Economics 101 will tell you if someone could replace the oil industry with a breakthrough technology, it would have already been done. We have sloooowly developing alternative sources and the tradoff is getting better with every new high for a barrel of oil, but there is still no cheaper source of energy than oil.

There are fundamental physical laws that put sever constraints on "better" sources of energy. Until oil becomes cost prohibitive (the free market will determine when that happens), it will continue to be the best economical choice for energy. I don't buy into the alarmist global warming opinion of CO2, so until we hit those cost crossovers for existing or new sources of energy, oil is still king. Bring on the clean, cheap energy when you get it. I'll be first in line to buy.

Technological breakthroughs are very difficult to predict. It's not as simple as insert XXX billion dollars and shazam, you got Mr. Fusion. Throwing more dollars at it won't necessarily solve the problem. Just look at public education to see how that govt formula works....

[achieftain]

Originally Posted by solcaptain Who said anything about a bailout? My point is that, if the market does not have the capability to regulating itself, then someone has to do it. Lenders are responsible, as are those people who took out these ill advised loans. But the problems that these lenders and borrowers created has extended far beyond those that gave or accepted these loans. Credit has tightened significantly, the dollar has plunged, and housing values have dropped significantly in many parts of the country. That's a really big deal if you have great credit, bought a home in a place like LA in 2005, and have to sell your home for $100,000 less than you paid for it just two years ago. Few of us like paying for the sins of others. Getting back to the original topic of oil and energy, if the government determines that, in the best interest of our nation, cars must use alternative fuels, get better mileage, or be cleaner for the environment, then they must act on these interests and mandate such changes even at the protest of the corporations themselves. We already do this with our safety and crash test standards, why not also regulate mileage and the use of alternative fuels/power sources? We can put a man on the moon but we cannot mass produce an affordable electric car? When profit driven corporations resist moving down the path toward energy independence for America, then we should make them walk the path.

But if Joe Average American refuses to give up his F-150 or Suburban that most of the time carries only the driver how do propose mandating that? How about we outlaw every vehicle weighing over 3000# and sporting over 200 hp. Then mandate that each and every household must purchase whether they can afford it or not a SmartCar or equivalent econoconbox that will absolutely get swallowed up in the first potholes of spring, 12" wheels and all. Next, outlaw fresh fruits and vegetables out of season, that alone will save a ton of fuel. While we are at it, require a 4 month shutdown of all industry and commerce north of the mason-dixon line while all of us snowbirds come south and bunk in your living room.

And here you are in possession of an extraneous vehicle, one for pleasure and not pure transportation, clearly in violation of stastute #, etc, etc, Your vehicle will be assimilated and destroyed.

[smartin]

Originally Posted by Chemist Call me a blind-eyed optimist and a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian, but let's get the government out of the autmotive regulation business and let the market drive this. "That government that governs least governs best."

And I'm not even a libertarian!

[EcoBoost]

Electric Cars...the displacement of fuel usage and resultant pollution to a remote area. The ultimate 'NIMBY' solution.

Global Warming...the displacement of scientific statistical and empirical data analysis with enviro-hysteria. The ultimate Greenpeace solution.

Alternative Fuels...the displacement of oil consumption with other equally, just differently, impactful 'improvements.' The ultimate "at least I can sleep at night" solution (see Electric cars above).

The 100 MPG Car...the displacement of all we hold dear in a capitalist system with 'I know those rich industrialist bastards are holding something back'. The ultimate paranoid solution.

Capitalism trumps all...the displacement of empathy and introspection with a complete reliance on market economics to cure all ills, even those it causes. The ultimate 'Marxism is evil' solution.



They are all just the talking points our sheep-like selves have been taught to throw down with by those who would benefit by such fervent support. Pick the one that best fits your view set, and you've already found your answers. There's no amount of debate that will sway such convictions. Human nature in this regard is not about finding consensus, it's about persuasion and obstinance in the name of perceived self-righteousness. All information is propaganda...we dont want others to 'see the light'. We want them to see OUR light. I include myself in this rant, most assuredly...I'm no more, or less, human than any of us!

I find it all a very convenient way to take sides, readily avoiding that which is really the underlying cause of it all:

Until we find a way to arrest, then reverse the ongoing onslaught of population increase, there will be no displacing THIS fact: transportation must and will occur for these teeming masses, and some impactful method of providing it will accompany. It does not matter whether you burn oil, alcohol, coal or atoms...there's no free lunch, and there's never going to be. Transportation requires an expenditure of energy. That energy has to come from something.

In the end, the Earth will win. It always has. It always will. Survival of the fittest is the one incontrovertible law of this third rock from the sun. At its essence, it's a brutal planet. To think we, as Humans, can find some way to 'make' this planet support billions more creatures than it is capable of is pure folly. Unfettered ideological nonsense! We are setting ourselves up for a most disturbing fall. Mother Earth is going to fix it, and it won't be pretty, but the planet will still be here, even if the bulk of humanity is not.

Will we be the extinct 'dinosaurs' that some future sentient species looks back upon with wry chuckles and a shake of the head? Unlike any of the above scenarios, this is the only one that has a strong enough historical basis to be not only believable, but practically assured.

[smartin]

Well said, EcoBoost.

[achieftain]

Originally Posted by EcoBoost Until we find a way to arrest, then reverse the ongoing onslaught of population increase, there will be no displacing THIS fact: transportation must and will occur for these teeming masses, and some impactful method of providing it will accompany. It does not matter whether you burn oil, alcohol, coal or atoms...there's no free lunch, and there's never going to be. Transportation requires an expenditure of energy. That energy has to come from something.

Sounds like a potential discussion in TWW: why haven't we had enough recent wars to accomplish this needed reduction in population?

Conversion of soy into fuel and food in Brazil has been the biggest destroyer of the virgin rain forests. When we in the US eventually, if some leaders have their way, convert all of our Fritos, Tostitos, and movie theater popcorn into fuel - what will we have left to eat?

[crawdadsolstice]

Originally Posted by achieftain Sounds like a potential discussion in TWW: why haven't we had enough recent wars to accomplish this needed reduction in population? Conversion of soy into fuel and food in Brazil has been the biggest destroyer of the virgin rain forests. When we in the US eventually, if some leaders have their way, convert all of our Fritos, Tostitos, and movie theater popcorn into fuel - what will we have left to eat?

The leftover coal, oil, etc. that we no longer need for our vehicles and everything else........ Sorry, just had to do it.