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Old 07-29-2008, 10:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Audi 2.0T versus Solstice 2.0 LNF

Numbers:

2009 Audi 2.0T A6----horsepower 211 (actually an increase of 11 hp over 2008
torque 258 lb-ft (actually a huge increase of 58 over 2008)

2008 Solstice GXP---well known 265 hp
well known 265 lb-ft torque. Note that this is 2008 GM vs 2009 Audi

2009 Audi A6 3.2----horsepower 265
torque 243

Wow, that's it. Where is the beef? Where is the beef? So much hype about V-6s from Audi I just had to read up on this.
So, if I'm not mistaken, the Solstice GXP outperforms both Audi engines in its more expensive coupe and sedan and even the overwrought TT soapdish, and we have to repeatedly listen to this type of hype. Give me a break. Or let Audi engineers study their German and American counterparts better.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Outperforming depends on more than simply horsepower and torque numbers. What are the weights of the other two Audi's? The Audi's are also AWD, gripping the road better on take-off. You would also have to compare suspension components, as better suspensions reduce body-roll in cornering, can lower the center of gravity with new springs or coilovers, and reduce the nose lifting on acceleration or diving during a hard braking maneuver. It also depends on where these engines are making their peak power, along with how long in the RPM band it can keep that power to the wheels. Then, you can compare transmissions. The manuals are hard to compare, as most can be modified to make a shorter throw. The automatics in the Audi vs. the Solstice are probably totally different. I believe the Audi's have the tapshift ability, and our automatic transmission has not been known to be the greatest. Then there is the ultimate factor, the driver!! These are just somethings to think about, and the specific type of performance you are looking at is key also. Are we looking at straight line quarter mile times, 0-60 times, autocross times, slalom times, etc.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiky3480 View Post
Outperforming depends on more than simply horsepower and torque numbers. What are the weights of the other two Audi's? The Audi's are also AWD, gripping the road better on take-off. You would also have to compare suspension components, as better suspensions reduce body-roll in cornering, can lower the center of gravity with new springs or coilovers, and reduce the nose lifting on acceleration or diving during a hard braking maneuver. It also depends on where these engines are making their peak power, along with how long in the RPM band it can keep that power to the wheels. Then, you can compare transmissions. The manuals are hard to compare, as most can be modified to make a shorter throw. The automatics in the Audi vs. the Solstice are probably totally different. I believe the Audi's have the tapshift ability, and our automatic transmission has not been known to be the greatest. Then there is the ultimate factor, the driver!! These are just somethings to think about, and the specific type of performance you are looking at is key also. Are we looking at straight line quarter mile times, 0-60 times, autocross times, slalom times, etc.
Nope, just looking at the specific output of the engines as HYPED here so much by one hot aired poster. Those engines seem wimpy in comparison, yet he lauds Audi V-6s as the holy grail of engines. Our LNF has a higher specific output in a lighter vehicle. Arguably, the TT with the 2.0T or with the 3.2 will get smoked. I don't just look at that parameter, but when you get down to it, you have to get down to Blau's level to get any understanding here. The Audis cost more and perform less with lesser specific output from their high feature and high tech engines. Compare the 2.0T to the LNF. That is a joke.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I agree with that statement. Our engines are state-of-the-art in my mind. The fact that they can even get the amount of power that they have out of our 2.0 is amazing. GM had Bosch re-tune their performance car with all stock components and got over 300whp...and I believe they got more than that, but I have to try and find the thread.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:53 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't recall I ever suggested putting a Audi V6 in a Solstice? Please forgive me if you think I did.

I think I have always suggested using GMs LLT N/A 3.6L V6 -makes more Power/Torque then the stock Turbo LNF.

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...DI_LLT_CTS.pdf

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...F_Solstice.pdf

I wonder what the LTT could do with forced induction?

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...FV6/08_LLT.doc

P.S.: Thank you for providing me another opportunity to sell GM on its own Award Winning 3.6L V6.
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
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There isn't anything mentioned about a Audi V6 in a Sol.

The 3.6L doesn't compare the LNF since it is almost twice the size and only 40hp more.

The LNF is the highest output per liter
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Deepbluegxp View Post
There isn't anything mentioned about a Audi V6 in a Sol.

The 3.6L doesn't compare the LNF since it is almost twice the size and only 40hp more.

The LNF is the highest output per liter

Thank you. He can't read is all. I'm comparing Audi engines in Audi vehicles with the 2.0 LNF. He's making an argument that Audi V-6s are so great. He dreams about a V-6 Solstice. Has not driven a GXP and wants more torque. He doesn't know what he is dreaming about.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
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If the Audi's are AWD, then they would have even less WHP.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:22 AM   #9 (permalink)
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If the Audi's are AWD, then they would have even less WHP.
We know this. But, he'll argue Audi V-6 superiority till the Mammoths come home.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=StevieG;728997]We know this.

I want BigBlau to know this:

4.2L/354-hp/325-lb-ft DOHC 32-valve V-8, 0-60 5.1 seconds, 1/4 mile NOT LISTED
4.0L/414hp/285 lb ft DOHC 32 valve V-8. 0-60 4.6 seconds, 1/4 mile 12.7 sec

"Audi's coupes don't compete directly with rival BMW 3 Series and Mercedes CLK models. The horsepower ratings don't quite line up, and the Audis are considerably wider (by 2.8 to 4.5 inches), which gives them the visual heft of the larger 6 Series or CL-Class coupes."

That from an autorag. Big Blau, which would you choose. The M3 blows the snot off the face of the S5, and I drove both back to back, 25 mile run on 1-25. The M3 is just plain a BETTER car.

BTW, you asked earlier why BMW went with the V-8 rather than continue with the inline-6 3.2 L from the last generation M3? When you asked my response was that the competition had gotten better in terms of performance--meaning Audi and M-B, and Infiniti even Lexus. Well, I should have added that Audi and M-B were stuffing V-8s into their 3 series competing vehicles and BMW wanted to keep their performance edge. A V-8 has much more performance potential than an I-6. Hope this helps your mind rest a little bit.
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Old 07-30-2008, 04:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Should we get into the over priced R8 too?
Audi is the essence of the overweight, overpriced, and underperforming German auto. At least BMW got their act together and threw some turbos on their 6 cylinder before Infiniti/Lexus/CTS could start kicking. BMW is keeping their head above water with the higher horsepower competition.

Go do an online comparison with the $37K A4 3.2 Quattro (255 HP) vs $37K CTS (304 HP), $36K IS 350 (306 HP), and $37 335i (300 HP). The Audi is lacking in just about every category. We won't even mention the G8 GXP with a 0-60 of 4.7 seconds that can turn just as well.

What is really funny is that the VW Passat has the 3.6L with 280 horsepower and the A4 is stuck with the ancient 3.2L!
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:25 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Reliable consistent street power vs. Turbo. It's your choice, if GM would let you have it.



Fact, normally aspirated engines are more reliable then forced induction engines! Turbos are like a small runaway nuclear explosion. Without a wastgate, if you keep your foot all the way to the floorboard, the turbo would build so much pressure up in your engine that you would blow your engine up. Something happen to the wastgate and your engine is toast.

Why does LNF power peak at 260HP and 5,300 rpm? Iíll tell you why, the LNF uses the same little K04 variant of the German built 3K-Warner Turbo as the award winning Audi 2.0L Turbo does.
Quote:
The K04 is designed to provide reliable, long-term service as long as its performance parameters are not exceeded. Driving the car at engine speeds above 5800 rpm with 15spi or greater boost significantly increases the exhaust temperature measured inside the K04 turbine housing. This signals that the maximum efficiency of the turbocharger has been exceeded, and that the energy produced by the turbine housing is now converting to heat rather than accelerating the compressor wheel faster. Unless a careful and extended idle-down is performed at the end of every hard driving session, the rapid heat build-up from high boost/high rpm operation causes the turbine shaft to soften, and allows the inconel turbine head to droop. The result is an imbalance that ultimately leads to a shaft failure.
Audi obviously wants happy customers and so to make their engines last keeps boost pressure lower then LNF, and limits boost pressure to 8psi maximum. GM has 5yr./100,000 warranty so who cares. Thatís why Audi is profitable and GM is not.

As far as power goes, Audi hears you loud and clear. 2009 will bring a 350HP 2.5L 5-cylinder Turbo and the VR6 is upped to 3.6L with 280HP for its TT.
Spied: 2010 Audi TT-RS Roadster

As far as Audi and BMW is concerned, it is clear that BMW is arrogant. If rear wheel drive is superior then why does BMW offer AWD xi models now? Maybe itís because Audi is starting to smoke them in sales too?
BMW vs. Audi in a war of words

The N/A A4 is equivalent to the N/A BMW 328 as the N/A S4 is equivalent to the TT BMW 335 as the RS4 is equivalent to the BMW M3. So comparing apples to apples,Audi is the better car.

P.S.: When is GM coming out with their 300HP LNF upgrade?
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:53 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Maybe you missed this, in case you are wondering, there hasn't been any Solstice turbo engines that have blown up.
Quote:
It is a high-tech wonder and really shows just how far engine development has evolved in the last several years.

IMPROVING AN ALREADY STURDY DESIGN
A lot of development work went into this new version of the Ecotec; it wasn't simply a matter of plunking a turbo on the engine. Indeed, every major casting was redesigned to provide a heightened level of reliability, though the engine was originally designed for use in forced-induction applications.

As with the new supercharged Northstar engine in the new Cadillac XLR, the displacement of the Solstice GXP's is slightly smaller than the normally aspirated version. Both feature a reduced bore size to increase cylinder-wall thickness. The Ecotec Turbo's stroke is also reduced and features a beefy, forged-steel crankshaft for additional durability. Bore and stroke are 86x86 mm (3.38x3.38 inches) for a total displacement of 1,998 cc's or 122 ci.

The Ecotec 2.0-liter Turbo uses a stronger "Gen II" Ecotec engine block, which was developed with input from racing experience to support increased horsepower and torque. Cylinder-block bulkheads -- the areas where the main bearing caps are attached -- and the cylinder walls are enlarged for strength. Other areas of the engine were enhanced to reinforce the structure, and the water jacket is deeper for added cooling capacity and improved cylinder-bore roundness. This architecture is shared with the 2.4-liter Ecotec engine that debuted in the Pontiac Solstice roadster.

Its bottom end is also upgraded to handle the additional boost. In addition to the forged-steel crankshaft, the Ecotec Turbo also employs forged connecting rods and cast pistons. The pistons feature a dish shape that deflects injected fuel toward the spark plugs. They are cooled with a jet-spray of oil on their undersides that directs the oil into a cast-in channel inside the piston, further resisting detonation.

Additionally, the Ecotec 2.0-liter Turbo four benefits from variable valve timing and an intercooled, twin-scroll turbocharger system to provide boost. A dual-scroll design is used on the exhaust turbine and speeds up velocity and response, much in the same way a two-plane intake manifold performs the identical function. The result is a nearly lag-free system, one that gives the 2.0-liter four the feel of a much larger engine. Dual cam phasing complements the turbocharging by optimizing valve timing at lower rpm for best turbo response and quick engine build-up time. "There is virtually no lag with this system," says Ed Groff, assistant chief engineer, Ecotec 2.0-liter Turbo engine. "Throttle response is immediate. The engine acts like it has a larger displacement engine."

Its turbocharger provides up to approximately 20 pounds of boost. It is matched to the engine's displacement and performance objectives, and is supported by the air-to-air intercooling system, which reduces inlet temperature pf the turbo-compressed air by approximately 212 degrees (100 degrees C), enhancing performance because cooler air is denser.
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:49 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bigblau View Post
Fact, normally aspirated engines are more reliable then forced induction engines!
Forced induction will be the future of engine technology. The fact that my GXP can challenge any of the world's best sports cars under $40k and still get roughly 30mpg is proof that the Ecotec engine is as powerful and efficient as any on the market.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:53 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Forced induction will be the future of engine technology.
Yep. Get used to it. We'll be seeing a LOT more turbo'd engines in the near and far future.
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