I like it. I think it will appeal to a broader number of people. The thing I like best is it power systems 40 miles on electric power only and a motor to drive the electric motor after that.To recharge just plug it in. The cost to drive a cup of coffee. I hope eveybody buys them leaving more fuel available to drive my Sky.
Location: Rosamond, CA - Home of Willow Springs Raceway
Looks fine to me but I will only buy a hybrid if there's no other option in new cars and I REALLY want a new car. Otherwise, I'll be sticking to gas and diesels. If I'm not mistaken the concepts CD was right where the Sols is so they had no choice but to change the design. I find it hard to believe that there are sooooooooooooooo many people out there that think concepts are the final (or near final) design of a car. Never had been, never will be. Sounds like automakers need to do some training or tone down their concepts so people don't get so pissed off when the design is changed. Or better yet, don't tell people the concept will be built and change the names so no one correlates the two.
__________________
2007 Cool GXP with Darkside Top, 5 spd, Ebony Cloth, Monsoon with Single CD, Sport Pedals, XM, A/C Mods: K&N Drop-in Filter, Solo Performance Street/Race Exhaust, Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec Tires, Eibach Pro-Kit Springs
It will sell! Of course it’s not as pretty as a Solstice but that’s not why people will buy it. The technology is really cool when you start to dig into it; I don’t think you guys realize what driving to work everyday just on electricity will mean to a lot of people. There are a lot of people that would love to raise their middle finger to the oil companies, the Middle East, Venezuela, etc... The first year will be sold before they even hit the dealer show rooms. There are more then enough people out there who want the latest and greatest green car. At mid $30K with the tax credits I think this would be an excellent company car.
The Volt changes the game for GM, the Cruz is what is going to make money. The Cruz is built off the same platfrom but will use a turbo 1.4L for 40+ MPG with out any hybrid crap and be priced at about $19K.
I actually love the production design; I thought the concept car was really stupid from an engineering aspect. How could you think you would get a production car with 22” wheels, windows that don’t roll down, a useless back seat, Camaro front end, and skinny tires sticking out past bulbous fenders? The concept was more of a show for the E-Flex system and to test the waters to see if people would want an electric car. Lutz said the car was a brick in the wind tunnel and it actually had less drag facing backwards. You all know how terrible the Solstice’s aerodynamics are, our long hoods, short windshields, flying buttresses, round rear ends, are all terrible for wind resistance. A Tahoe cuts through the air better then our little sports cars.
Why would GM stick with a design that prevents a 40 mile electric range?
Everything about the Volt production car being a failure is all BS (unless you only read Edmunds). I know of 4 people in my office here that will be buying one.
__________________
2008 Black/Black GXP, purchased 7/23 right off the train.
Mod#1 blacked-out headlights
Mod#2 GMPP Intake -I like to hear my turbo.
Mod#3 Special Sauce (23PSI)
Mod#4 Solo Street Race
Mod#5 Repaint w/ Custom Silver Stripes
'07 Charger R/T Mama's car
I hate to admit it so I wasn't going to say anything...but I'd buy an electric solstice, if the price is competitive.
0-60 in 5.7 seconds ain't to shabby either...and in almost complete silence.
I hate to admit it so I wasn't going to say anything...but I'd buy an electric solstice, if the price is competitive.
0-60 in 5.7 seconds ain't to shabby either...and in almost complete silence.
Me too. I'd buy an all electric Solstice GXP and I want BMW to make an electic hybrid out of this M1 concept. Looks are first and foremost to me. Buying a fuel efficient or alternative fuel vehicle is second, but if I am gonna buy one I want one that looks like a sports car. I like what Tesla does with their electric Roadster, and notice they released it PRIOR to the release of the cheaper and more mainstream sedan offering. That says they have vision. They understood that their Roadster (all electric based on the Lutus Elise body and chassis) was important to get auto-philes interested, and they succeeded. The torque and performance of the Tesla Roadster is incredibile, its all electric powerplant even more incredible, and the instant cache of its gorgeous body does wonders for my mind. Look, if BMW even remotely considered that for its M1 concept, which I doubt, I'd steal from your bank to pay for mine.
If they do it, I am happy as a lark. If GM wants to sell a volt that looks like a cross between a friggin' Prius and an Insight, so be it. I don't want it at any cost, even free. You who like it can buy it and help finance my real "Volt" or my real solstice GXP electric-hybrid. I ain't buyin' green and paying $40 large for the current planned Volt for sure.
__________________
Solstice GXP picked up 10/13/2006. Triple black Mysterious, Darkside, Ebony leather with red stitching. All Options, but no spoiler. 5 speed chrome wheels, XM, OnStar, sport metallic pedals everything but the blonde salesgirl...
It will sell! Of course it’s not as pretty as a Solstice but that’s not why people will buy it. The technology is really cool when you start to dig into it; I don’t think you guys realize what driving to work everyday just on electricity will mean to a lot of people. There are a lot of people that would love to raise their middle finger to the oil companies, the Middle East, Venezuela, etc... The first year will be sold before they even hit the dealer show rooms. There are more then enough people out there who want the latest and greatest green car. At mid $30K with the tax credits I think this would be an excellent company car.
Yes, $30k-$40k to beta test a new daily driver that is not a luxury car, nor sports car, and will take about 15-20 years to recoup costs based on electric rates. The fact is that while the drivetrain is new, it is not going to get you to work and back on just electricity unless you live a lot less than 40 miles away. LIon packs get cranky and go bad if you let them discharge before recharging them, meaning that gas engine is going to be cycling to charge them well before 40 miles. This is the first of many limits people will need to get used to. This is not going to be a great car to wave the middle finger at the oil companies with. It's also not going to help pollution much since coal, nat gas, or other unattractive options are needed to generate electricity. I'm not denying it's far more efficient than a non-PGE hybrid and ICE-powered cars, I'm trying to remind people it's not the utopia a lot of folks think it is.
Oh, and you are probably right that they'll sell out. They'll do so because GM won't be able to make them in large numbers (i.e. hundreds of thousands). I will mention, but do not want to delve too deep into it, that this technology is not well vetted. There will be problems. There will be lots of expensive, prematurely dead battery packs. There will be recalls. There is always a risk to new technology and GM is new at this game. This is why they do long term tests, ramped production runs over the years, and introduce new tech on the high end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
The Volt changes the game for GM, the Cruz is what is going to make money. The Cruz is built off the same platfrom but will use a turbo 1.4L for 40+ MPG with out any hybrid crap and be priced at about $19K.
Actually, with costs like that it's not going to make much at all for GM. Margins on those small cars are razor-thin. They need fat margins to survive and prosper with their current structure. You are, however, very much correct that a highly-efficient car will sell well. It is also proven technology and much more reliable than any battery pack in a Honda, Toyota, or Chevy. However, with gas futures trading ever lower, I would expect that most people will shoot for the 30MPG sweet spot of performance & luxury vs. economy. If you see gas back down to about $2-$2.50, the SUVs will be back. Not the Explorers, but definitely a lot more large crossovers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
I actually love the production design; I thought the concept car was really stupid from an engineering aspect. How could you think you would get a production car with 22” wheels, windows that don’t roll down, a useless back seat, Camaro front end, and skinny tires sticking out past bulbous fenders? The concept was more of a show for the E-Flex system and to test the waters to see if people would want an electric car. Lutz said the car was a brick in the wind tunnel and it actually had less drag facing backwards. You all know how terrible the Solstice’s aerodynamics are, our long hoods, short windshields, flying buttresses, round rear ends, are all terrible for wind resistance. A Tahoe cuts through the air better then our little sports cars.
Why would GM stick with a design that prevents a 40 mile electric range?
The idea is that the engineers compromise with the designers to create something that's very similar to the concept. The Volt did that with the power train. The rest of the car is completely different. I will agree the rest of the car had features that needed fixing. So does the Solstice. So does my old Altima. So does any other car on the road or in a CAD program or clay model somewhere.
GM had a car that screamed out "Look at what we can build!" This was to show all those people out there who think poorly of GM quality, design, engineering, bloat, unions, etc., and show them what the company can do when they put their noses to the grindstone. So what happened? Gay called and they answered. It doesn't matter if the Cd is higher and it's a brick through the air (granted a brick with a far smaller frontal area than a Tahoe). With < 100 MPH top speed and a battery range of a few dozen miles it's not going to matter too much. A car like the concept pulls you in and you don't care if it's only going to do 37 miles on battery instead of 40. None of the Tesla buyers are going to cry if they trade off 10 miles a charge for some extra torque to spring them off a stoplight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
Everything about the Volt production car being a failure is all BS (unless you only read Edmunds). I know of 4 people in my office here that will be buying one.
And I know more people who will never touch a GM, no matter if you gave it to them. So what? It will sell, but depending on that price and any early problems, this can go straight down hill in just a few months after release.
So what's the marketing angle? Buy a Volt, new toys, and not as gay as the Prius?
Yes, this car will sell. It just won't be as successful as GM needs it to be. A staggered rollout with a high end vehicle and then, later, the everyman car, would do better for their image, sales, technology, and margins.
Location: Rosamond, CA - Home of Willow Springs Raceway
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koobie
Its amazing, but not $40k amazing. I'll stick to a used Civic for MPGs.
The best way to go regardless if you're interested in saving a buck. Used car with decent gas mileage.
Quote:
With < 100 MPH top speed and a battery range of a few dozen miles it's not going to matter too much.
Suppose to be anywhere from 13 to 130 miles depending on driving style and environmental conditions. There's gonna be a WHOLE lot of dumbasses expecting to be able to flat foot that car and get 40 miles on a battery charge.
Quote:
None of the Tesla buyers are going to cry if they trade off 10 miles a charge for some extra torque to spring them off a stoplight.
There's one owner that lives in the Malibu hills that only gets 100 miles per charge out of his. He's not complaining.
__________________
2007 Cool GXP with Darkside Top, 5 spd, Ebony Cloth, Monsoon with Single CD, Sport Pedals, XM, A/C Mods: K&N Drop-in Filter, Solo Performance Street/Race Exhaust, Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec Tires, Eibach Pro-Kit Springs
I totally agree with you Snugglebear. And like you say, “…it's not the utopia a lot of folks think it is.” These electric cars (all electric or hybrid) are not practical and do not help free yourselves from fossil fuels –unless we convert our power grid to all nuclear or hydro power.
The electric car is not anything new. In fact, the first ever vehicle was electric. The first electric carriage was built in the 1830s and the first successful electric automobile in the U.S. was built in 1891 by William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa. New York City first had electric taxis back in 1897. The death of the electric car came in the 1920s, when people desired to go longer distances and gasoline became readily available. In 1966 Congress introduced the earliest bills for electric cars as a means to reducing air pollution. But it was not until the 1970s with rising oil prices, the 1973 Arab Oil Embargo and growing awareness of the environmental movement that anyone ever started seriously thinking of going back to the electric automobile.
IMO, the only reason anyone is thinking of going back to the electric car is because it is a government mandated feel good project that is extorting automobile manufacturers to spend billions of dollars in order to legally be able to stay in the automotive manufacturing business. If it were not for that reason alone, I do not think that executives like Bob Lutz would ever seriously think of putting an electric motor in any vehicle. That’s why the automakers are asking congress for a $25 billon loan to help pay for their government mandated projects. It’s like put your money where your mouth is Congress. That’s because there is no way in the short term that the automotive industry will every make a single penny on any electric or hybrid. Again, that’s my opinion. That said, like I stated before, I kind of like the looks of the Volt –even though it’s not a V6 Hybrid.
As for this quote from bradyb:
Quote:
Blau, you’re funny.
Get yourselves up to speed.
The Top Ten Design Elements Of The Chevy Volt:
Chevy Volt: The Top Ten Design Elements Of The Chevy Volt
GM's Lutz: Chevy Volt Will Use GPS To Determine Distance From Home, Adjust Engine Accordingly:
Jalopnik: Obsessed With The Cult Of Cars
POLL: Chevy Volt Concept Versus Production Version:
GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site » Blog Archive » POLL: Chevy Volt Concept Versus Production Version
The Chevy Volt’s Interior (It comes in lots of colors, not just IPod white):
GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site » Blog Archive » The Chevy Volt’s Interior
If bradyb had wanted to see what the Volt was going to look like all he had to do was click on the link in Post #1 of this thread titled: Chevy Volt Official Pictures.
Your opinions are welcomed but you have to realize that this car will not fail. It will sell and it will open new doors for a number of flex drive vehicles. Price will drop as production ramps up and technology develops, the Volt is three to four years ahead of its competition and that's what you are paying for. This is a full size electric car with no compromises that will get you to work with A/C and heated seats.
First off, there are many many people that don't gave a damn whether the electricity comes from coal. A coal plant is much cleaner then burning gas in a few thousand cars, but what most people want is energy independence. I am so looking forward to staying away from the gas pump. I live 21 miles from work and so I'll just plug it back in when I get to work. Yes I'll be paying an extra $15 a month supporting Utah Power but it's better then paying $150 to the oil companies/OPEC. Keeping one to two gallons of fuel in the tank with some fuel stabilizer should last me all year. I don't care about global warming, I actually prefer the milder winters. What's stupid is the idiot that buys 3,000 pounds of processed chemicals, metal, glass, plastic - called a Prius and thinks they are saving the planet with 45MPG.
Go do more googling on the Cruz; this is a world wide vehicle with high profit margins and high demand. The 1.4l motor is essentially a small version of the LNF with direct injection and a turbo. I'm getting a solid 39MPG commute with my tuned GXP; I can't imagine what I could do with a FWD car that has a 1.4 turbo engine and some aerodynamics.
__________________
2008 Black/Black GXP, purchased 7/23 right off the train.
Mod#1 blacked-out headlights
Mod#2 GMPP Intake -I like to hear my turbo.
Mod#3 Special Sauce (23PSI)
Mod#4 Solo Street Race
Mod#5 Repaint w/ Custom Silver Stripes
'07 Charger R/T Mama's car
...LIon packs get cranky and go bad if you let them discharge before recharging them, meaning that gas engine is going to be cycling to charge them well before 40 miles. This is the first of many limits people will need to get used to. ....
This is not exactly true for the Volt. GM is pretty conservative, I'm sure they are not fully discharging a Li-ion battery.
I bet the 40 miles range is based on a difference of starting near 100% state of charge (called SOC) achieved during overnight charging, and a discharge down to conservatively 40% SOC, or if they are daring and can prove out the battery tech, maybe down to 25% SOC if they think they can push it down that far.
Once down to the lower limit SOC (let's use 25% for talking purposes - I don't know what it really is, but I do know that this is how Li-ion tech works), THEN the engine kicks on and high-energy charges the battery - but ONLY to about 75% SOC. Again, maybe they've got tech improvements that allow the battery to be charged higher than that, but as a rule of thumb it's safe to cycle-charge/discharge a Li-ion cell between 75% to 35% back to 75% at higher power charging/discharging.
When charging at night, you get to use a different charging strategy - charge to 75% at high-power, then as the SOC increases, you 'wean' the battery charging power. The last 5% of charging is done at pretty low 'trickle' levels of power to 'top off' the charge to 100%
SOC.
Your laptop battery works in much this same way. So does the Tesla battery pack and charging system.
So - maybe the full battery pack has X kW-hr capacity. 40miles range is between 60% to 75% of the full battery capacity (depends on if the min allowed SOC is 40% or 25%).
Then the engine kicks on and charges (at decent efficiency) to 75% SOC and shuts off. The car can then go back to full electric drive from 75% to 25% SOC - or about 50% of the battery capacity (assuming min SOC is 25%). Since 40 miles was 75% of the state of charge useage (or about 1 7/8% battery capacity used per mile), the Volt would be expected to go about 26 miles before the engine kicks in (the battery reaches 25% SOC) and charges it back up to 75% SOC.
So, for many people, myself included, whose round trip most of the time is <30 miles to/from my place(s) of employment I should be able to go literally 6 weeks or more on a few gallons of fuel.
Looked online because of a hint dropped to me, and lo and behold, these 'guesses' have better 'guesstimates', on none other than wikipedia (which we ALL know is always correct).
Battery capacity = 16 kWhr
Min SOC = 30%
Hi-power charge (operating max charge) = 80% SOC
40 mile range from full charge, so by inference that's 70% of a 16 kWhr battery (100% SOC to 30% SOC), or 0.280 kWhr/mile driven. This is a number that does make sense. A car that gets about 25 MPG consumes about 1 MJ/mile or about 0.28kWhr/mile.
Charging is done by a 53 kW generator. Power used at, say, 70 mph is 0.280 kWhr/mile *70 MPH (cancel out the hours and miles and you get kW) is 19.6, leaving 33.4 kW for charging.
That implies a charge of 8kWhr (from 30% SOC to 80% SOC) at 33.4kW in about 15 minutes while driving at a power consumption rate of 19.6 kW. You'll get to drive on straight electricity for about 28 miles before the engine kicks back in to charge the battery - or about 24 minutes. Then the ICE/generator kicks on for another 15 minutes (or about 18 miles)... then you drive for 28 miles/24minutes until the ICE/generator kicks back on... and so on.
This is not revolutionary in itself - except that these charge/electric-only times are much longer than ever imagined. This is all due to the latest in Li-ion battery tech - with good energy density and ability to accept high-power charging. This strategy is not so good with Nickel-metal hydride batteries, which are not nearly as efficient during charging (read here: excessive heat during high power charging). That is why the 'assist motor' in a parallel hybrid is relatively small - lower power means less heat and less trouble during charging.
Think, then, about what this means for the future. Just doubling the battery energy density means that you get 80 miles in the morning electric only. On the highway, you drive for nearly 50 minutes on electric only, and the engine runs for about 28 minutes.
Many more people can handle the majority of their daily driving needs with 80 miles range.
On average, electricity costs about $0.10/kWhr. The time you drive on electricity from the grid is worth about 3 cents per mile.
If you get about 28 miles per gallon on the way to work in your normal car, at $3.75/gallon, a normal car costs you closer to 13.5 cents per mile driven - more if your average fuel price is higher or you get worse mileage.
It's admirable - I applaud GM for the first step in the next generation of personal transportation. I just wish they hadn't promised a style they couldn't deliver.
The race is now on for non-jellybean styling that looks great but is efficient...
Speaking as a (teaching) scientist, I want to thank you, Solsticeman, for your last two posts. I'll be using some of this material in my senior level Physical Chemistry class when we get to electrochemistry. Real world examples, as my students would say, "Rock!"
__________________
Envious, ebony leather, loaded, DDM Stage II S/C, headers/cat/exhaust, 4-piston brakes/slotted rotors, Probeam, Backbone, Lil' Chromies, K-sphere pedals, Kazera KZ-L wheels, the TWEETY door unlock/lock button, High Note horn, Brushed Al door sills, etched/lighted WindRestrictor, white LED map/footwell lights, 3rd brake light pulser. --- She moves!
Your opinions are welcomed but you have to realize that this car will not fail. It will sell and it will open new doors for a number of flex drive vehicles. Price will drop as production ramps up and technology develops, the Volt is three to four years ahead of its competition and that's what you are paying for. This is a full size electric car with no compromises that will get you to work with A/C and heated seats.
It will sell, but will it sell enough? This is untested technology for GM that they're rushing to market and may well price at a level that pits it against Mercedes and BWMs. That will put the everyman PGE above the reach of everyman. That will slow adoption. Any issues with reliability will turn people off and make them sit it out, much less rub off wrong on the Chevy/GM brands. The Volt will succeed provided that it works reliably, they price it well, and they don't sell it as something it isn't. I don't know whether GM can jump through those hoops in rapid succession.
My impression is that you're not seeing my whole argument. GM may fail with the Volt project, it may not. Time will tell. Whatever the case, GM still has to try because it has to leapfrog everyone else out there who have been investing in similar technologies, building towards the goal of hyper-efficient electrics. I don't have any issues with the strategic initiative or the investment in this new drive train at all. What I do have are issues with their tactical decisions on how they're positioning themselves in the market and the misinformation out there. Again, new tech is risky. If you have to force it out there, force it out in limited numbers on the high end with people who will pay a premium for it, then watch things very closely. After a few years trickle it down to everyone else and make a handsome profit on the now mature tech. This is well suited to the Volt-as-higher-end-sporty-car thrust, with a follow-on design similar to the "final" version of the Volt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
First off, there are many many people that don't gave a damn whether the electricity comes from coal. A coal plant is much cleaner then burning gas in a few thousand cars, but what most people want is energy independence. I am so looking forward to staying away from the gas pump. I live 21 miles from work and so I'll just plug it back in when I get to work. Yes I'll be paying an extra $15 a month supporting Utah Power but it's better then paying $150 to the oil companies/OPEC. Keeping one to two gallons of fuel in the tank with some fuel stabilizer should last me all year. I don't care about global warming, I actually prefer the milder winters. What's stupid is the idiot that buys 3,000 pounds of processed chemicals, metal, glass, plastic - called a Prius and thinks they are saving the planet with 45MPG.
I'm not arguing with you on this point. The Prius is efficient, certainly, but it has its limits. Likewise, PGEs will cycle their engine at various times depending on their firmware and learned settings. In your case, any mountains or long hills may accelerate the drain and cause engine cycling to charge the LIons. But again, this depends on how GM programs the firmware and how adaptive the algorithm is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
Go do more googling on the Cruz; this is a world wide vehicle with high profit margins and high demand. The 1.4l motor is essentially a small version of the LNF with direct injection and a turbo. I'm getting a solid 39MPG commute with my tuned GXP; I can't imagine what I could do with a FWD car that has a 1.4 turbo engine and some aerodynamics.
Again, I'm not going to argue with you on this point. The world needs a lot of cheap, efficient cars. The Cruz is one option. Preferably it would be electric because of the increased efficiency over an ICE engine and drive train, but in a vehicle that small there's not really much room or weight to spare for all the batteries. The increased energy density of petroleum and the size of the engine compensate for the inherent thermal and transmission losses, thus making it the better choice for the present. However, there are some nifty ideas out there like the compressed air car. Those will also get about 40 miles per charge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolsticeMan
This is not exactly true for the Volt. GM is pretty conservative, I'm sure they are not fully discharging a Li-ion battery.
That was my point - the marketing information out there implies you can do 40 miles, the entire charge, without cycling the ICE to recharge the pack. Anyone who has worked with LIons knows this is a bad thing to do. The threshold at which they'll need to charge the battery is going to vary based on how they're programming the FADEC (surely this system qualifies as such) and how adaptive they want the system to be to external variables. When I wrote what I did I made some napkin-based estimates based on the Motortrend blog about the EPA certification that BigBlau posted and I figured a conservative 40% charge before cycling, solely based on some past numbers seen from laptops. It will be interesting to see how well the system works when they ship it and how many times they'll need to flash the firmware to adjust things.
The AutoGuide.com network consists of the largest network of enthusiast-owned enthusiast-operated automotive communities.
AutoGuide.com provides the latest car reviews, auto show coverage, new car prices, and automotive news. The AutoGuide network operates more than 100 automotive forums where our users consult peers for shopping information and advice, and share opinions as a community.
I totally agree with you Snugglebear. And like you say, “…it's not the utopia a lot of folks think it is.” These electric cars (all electric or hybrid) are not practical and do not help free yourselves from fossil fuels –unless we convert our power grid to all nuclear or hydro power. 
Linear Mode
