Your opinions are welcomed but you have to realize that this car will not fail. It will sell and it will open new doors for a number of flex drive vehicles. Price will drop as production ramps up and technology develops, the Volt is three to four years ahead of its competition and that's what you are paying for. This is a full size electric car with no compromises that will get you to work with A/C and heated seats.
First off, there are many many people that don't gave a damn whether the electricity comes from coal. A coal plant is much cleaner then burning gas in a few thousand cars, but what most people want is energy independence. I am so looking forward to staying away from the gas pump. I live 21 miles from work and so I'll just plug it back in when I get to work. Yes I'll be paying an extra $15 a month supporting Utah Power but it's better then paying $150 to the oil companies/OPEC. Keeping one to two gallons of fuel in the tank with some fuel stabilizer should last me all year. I don't care about global warming, I actually prefer the milder winters. What's stupid is the idiot that buys 3,000 pounds of processed chemicals, metal, glass, plastic - called a Prius and thinks they are saving the planet with 45MPG.
Go do more googling on the Cruz; this is a world wide vehicle with high profit margins and high demand. The 1.4l motor is essentially a small version of the LNF with direct injection and a turbo. I'm getting a solid 39MPG commute with my tuned GXP; I can't imagine what I could do with a FWD car that has a 1.4 turbo engine and some aerodynamics.
__________________
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Mod#1 blacked-out headlights
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"07 Charger R/T, Mama's car
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Location: Wilds of Canada, or the Pac NW, or the Upper Penninsula of MI...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebear
...LIon packs get cranky and go bad if you let them discharge before recharging them, meaning that gas engine is going to be cycling to charge them well before 40 miles. This is the first of many limits people will need to get used to. ....
This is not exactly true for the Volt. GM is pretty conservative, I'm sure they are not fully discharging a Li-ion battery.
I bet the 40 miles range is based on a difference of starting near 100% state of charge (called SOC) achieved during overnight charging, and a discharge down to conservatively 40% SOC, or if they are daring and can prove out the battery tech, maybe down to 25% SOC if they think they can push it down that far.
Once down to the lower limit SOC (let's use 25% for talking purposes - I don't know what it really is, but I do know that this is how Li-ion tech works), THEN the engine kicks on and high-energy charges the battery - but ONLY to about 75% SOC. Again, maybe they've got tech improvements that allow the battery to be charged higher than that, but as a rule of thumb it's safe to cycle-charge/discharge a Li-ion cell between 75% to 35% back to 75% at higher power charging/discharging.
When charging at night, you get to use a different charging strategy - charge to 75% at high-power, then as the SOC increases, you 'wean' the battery charging power. The last 5% of charging is done at pretty low 'trickle' levels of power to 'top off' the charge to 100%
SOC.
Your laptop battery works in much this same way. So does the Tesla battery pack and charging system.
So - maybe the full battery pack has X kW-hr capacity. 40miles range is between 60% to 75% of the full battery capacity (depends on if the min allowed SOC is 40% or 25%).
Then the engine kicks on and charges (at decent efficiency) to 75% SOC and shuts off. The car can then go back to full electric drive from 75% to 25% SOC - or about 50% of the battery capacity (assuming min SOC is 25%). Since 40 miles was 75% of the state of charge useage (or about 1 7/8% battery capacity used per mile), the Volt would be expected to go about 26 miles before the engine kicks in (the battery reaches 25% SOC) and charges it back up to 75% SOC.
So, for many people, myself included, whose round trip most of the time is <30 miles to/from my place(s) of employment I should be able to go literally 6 weeks or more on a few gallons of fuel.
Location: Wilds of Canada, or the Pac NW, or the Upper Penninsula of MI...
Looked online because of a hint dropped to me, and lo and behold, these 'guesses' have better 'guesstimates', on none other than wikipedia (which we ALL know is always correct).
Battery capacity = 16 kWhr
Min SOC = 30%
Hi-power charge (operating max charge) = 80% SOC
40 mile range from full charge, so by inference that's 70% of a 16 kWhr battery (100% SOC to 30% SOC), or 0.280 kWhr/mile driven. This is a number that does make sense. A car that gets about 25 MPG consumes about 1 MJ/mile or about 0.28kWhr/mile.
Charging is done by a 53 kW generator. Power used at, say, 70 mph is 0.280 kWhr/mile *70 MPH (cancel out the hours and miles and you get kW) is 19.6, leaving 33.4 kW for charging.
That implies a charge of 8kWhr (from 30% SOC to 80% SOC) at 33.4kW in about 15 minutes while driving at a power consumption rate of 19.6 kW. You'll get to drive on straight electricity for about 28 miles before the engine kicks back in to charge the battery - or about 24 minutes. Then the ICE/generator kicks on for another 15 minutes (or about 18 miles)... then you drive for 28 miles/24minutes until the ICE/generator kicks back on... and so on.
This is not revolutionary in itself - except that these charge/electric-only times are much longer than ever imagined. This is all due to the latest in Li-ion battery tech - with good energy density and ability to accept high-power charging. This strategy is not so good with Nickel-metal hydride batteries, which are not nearly as efficient during charging (read here: excessive heat during high power charging). That is why the 'assist motor' in a parallel hybrid is relatively small - lower power means less heat and less trouble during charging.
Think, then, about what this means for the future. Just doubling the battery energy density means that you get 80 miles in the morning electric only. On the highway, you drive for nearly 50 minutes on electric only, and the engine runs for about 28 minutes.
Many more people can handle the majority of their daily driving needs with 80 miles range.
On average, electricity costs about $0.10/kWhr. The time you drive on electricity from the grid is worth about 3 cents per mile.
If you get about 28 miles per gallon on the way to work in your normal car, at $3.75/gallon, a normal car costs you closer to 13.5 cents per mile driven - more if your average fuel price is higher or you get worse mileage.
It's admirable - I applaud GM for the first step in the next generation of personal transportation. I just wish they hadn't promised a style they couldn't deliver.
The race is now on for non-jellybean styling that looks great but is efficient...
Speaking as a (teaching) scientist, I want to thank you, Solsticeman, for your last two posts. I'll be using some of this material in my senior level Physical Chemistry class when we get to electrochemistry. Real world examples, as my students would say, "Rock!"
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NASSOA Founding Member
Location: here or there, depending on one's perspective
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
Snugel Bear and Blau.
Your opinions are welcomed but you have to realize that this car will not fail. It will sell and it will open new doors for a number of flex drive vehicles. Price will drop as production ramps up and technology develops, the Volt is three to four years ahead of its competition and that's what you are paying for. This is a full size electric car with no compromises that will get you to work with A/C and heated seats.
It will sell, but will it sell enough? This is untested technology for GM that they're rushing to market and may well price at a level that pits it against Mercedes and BWMs. That will put the everyman PGE above the reach of everyman. That will slow adoption. Any issues with reliability will turn people off and make them sit it out, much less rub off wrong on the Chevy/GM brands. The Volt will succeed provided that it works reliably, they price it well, and they don't sell it as something it isn't. I don't know whether GM can jump through those hoops in rapid succession.
My impression is that you're not seeing my whole argument. GM may fail with the Volt project, it may not. Time will tell. Whatever the case, GM still has to try because it has to leapfrog everyone else out there who have been investing in similar technologies, building towards the goal of hyper-efficient electrics. I don't have any issues with the strategic initiative or the investment in this new drive train at all. What I do have are issues with their tactical decisions on how they're positioning themselves in the market and the misinformation out there. Again, new tech is risky. If you have to force it out there, force it out in limited numbers on the high end with people who will pay a premium for it, then watch things very closely. After a few years trickle it down to everyone else and make a handsome profit on the now mature tech. This is well suited to the Volt-as-higher-end-sporty-car thrust, with a follow-on design similar to the "final" version of the Volt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
First off, there are many many people that don't gave a damn whether the electricity comes from coal. A coal plant is much cleaner then burning gas in a few thousand cars, but what most people want is energy independence. I am so looking forward to staying away from the gas pump. I live 21 miles from work and so I'll just plug it back in when I get to work. Yes I'll be paying an extra $15 a month supporting Utah Power but it's better then paying $150 to the oil companies/OPEC. Keeping one to two gallons of fuel in the tank with some fuel stabilizer should last me all year. I don't care about global warming, I actually prefer the milder winters. What's stupid is the idiot that buys 3,000 pounds of processed chemicals, metal, glass, plastic - called a Prius and thinks they are saving the planet with 45MPG.
I'm not arguing with you on this point. The Prius is efficient, certainly, but it has its limits. Likewise, PGEs will cycle their engine at various times depending on their firmware and learned settings. In your case, any mountains or long hills may accelerate the drain and cause engine cycling to charge the LIons. But again, this depends on how GM programs the firmware and how adaptive the algorithm is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
Go do more googling on the Cruz; this is a world wide vehicle with high profit margins and high demand. The 1.4l motor is essentially a small version of the LNF with direct injection and a turbo. I'm getting a solid 39MPG commute with my tuned GXP; I can't imagine what I could do with a FWD car that has a 1.4 turbo engine and some aerodynamics.
Again, I'm not going to argue with you on this point. The world needs a lot of cheap, efficient cars. The Cruz is one option. Preferably it would be electric because of the increased efficiency over an ICE engine and drive train, but in a vehicle that small there's not really much room or weight to spare for all the batteries. The increased energy density of petroleum and the size of the engine compensate for the inherent thermal and transmission losses, thus making it the better choice for the present. However, there are some nifty ideas out there like the compressed air car. Those will also get about 40 miles per charge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolsticeMan
This is not exactly true for the Volt. GM is pretty conservative, I'm sure they are not fully discharging a Li-ion battery.
That was my point - the marketing information out there implies you can do 40 miles, the entire charge, without cycling the ICE to recharge the pack. Anyone who has worked with LIons knows this is a bad thing to do. The threshold at which they'll need to charge the battery is going to vary based on how they're programming the FADEC (surely this system qualifies as such) and how adaptive they want the system to be to external variables. When I wrote what I did I made some napkin-based estimates based on the Motortrend blog about the EPA certification that BigBlau posted and I figured a conservative 40% charge before cycling, solely based on some past numbers seen from laptops. It will be interesting to see how well the system works when they ship it and how many times they'll need to flash the firmware to adjust things.
Personally I like the Volt, but I would never purchase one. Just some more food for thought. If the world goes from petrol based automobiles to electric or some sort of hybrid what, if any, are the health risks associated with the electromagnetic fields (EMF) emitted by these vehicles' electric motors? Will the health risks outweigh the health risks of the polluting gases emitted by current fossil fuel powered cars? Currently there are no regulations in the United States concerning occupant exposure levels of EMF.
I was just wondering when the EPA will find a need to have manufacturers certify their electric/hybrid vehicles to inform consumers of the EMF levels emitted by these vehicles? Or are the risks to exposure of EMF acceptable considering that in "...1996, a U.S. Federal Court ruled that citizens may not bring suit against electric power companies over electromagnetic radiation emissions." Will drivers be able to sue car manufacturers for health problems they feel where caused by driving their vehicles?
IMO, I think this electric car stuff is just a fad. It provides government and consumers with the opportunity to feel good about themselves for the moment. Currently electric cars are viewed as world saviors. Once the price of oil goes down soccer moms will go back to driving their SUVs, the stock market will rise, the government will be taxing our CO2 emissions to help pay for the Wallstreet bailout and the world will finally go back to normal again.
Location: here or there, depending on one's perspective
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigblau
Personally I like the Volt, but I would never purchase one. Just some more food for thought. If the world goes from petrol based automobiles to electric or some sort of hybrid what, if any, are the health risks associated with the electromagnetic fields (EMF) emitted by these vehicles' electric motors? Will the health risks outweigh the health risks of the polluting gases emitted by current fossil fuel powered cars? Currently there are no regulations in the United States concerning occupant exposure levels of EMF.
I was just wondering when the EPA will find a need to have manufacturers certify their electric/hybrid vehicles to inform consumers of the EMF levels emitted by these vehicles? Or are the risks to exposure of EMF acceptable considering that in "...1996, a U.S. Federal Court ruled that citizens may not bring suit against electric power companies over electromagnetic radiation emissions." Will drivers be able to sue car manufacturers for health problems they feel where caused by driving their vehicles?
One would expect to see a significant uptick in cancers and other ailments among populations that are already being exposed. This would include linemen, subway engineers, railway engineers, etc., who are working around rather large electric motors or other equipment generating large magnetic fields. To my knowledge there aren't any known links. I would suggest worrying about dying in a car wreck than EMF from a motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigblau
IMO, I think this electric car stuff is just a fad. It provides government and consumers with the opportunity to feel good about themselves for the moment. Currently electric cars are viewed as world saviors. Once the price of oil goes down soccer moms will go back to driving their SUVs, the stock market will rise, the government will be taxing our CO2 emissions to help pay for the Wallstreet bailout and the world will finally go back to normal again.
Electric cars are more efficient than internal combustion, end of argument. Yes, petroleum, LNG, and other chemical fuels are more energy dense than existing batteries, but the whole problem is that there is massive loss of that energy when it is converted into work. Heat, noise, friction from all the gearing, transmissions, and so on, all waste a lot of that energy. With electricity you have none of those problems - electrons create a magnetic field, that spins a magnet, the magnet spins the wheel, and away you go.
As for the CO2 taxes, don't think any money will go to the housing bailout. Everyone knows this is the UN's biggest business opportunity, ever.
One would expect to see a significant uptick in cancers and other ailments among populations that are already being exposed. This would include linemen, subway engineers, railway engineers, etc., who are working around rather large electric motors or other equipment generating large magnetic fields. To my knowledge there aren't any known links. I would suggest worrying about dying in a car wreck than EMF from a motor.
Common sense suggests you are correct, but I'm still surprised that there has not been some concerned activist group calling for government testing and regulation of EMF transmission in electric powered vehicles before giving the manufacturers the green light to start building cars. I can still remember all the controversy over the microwave oven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebear
Electric cars are more efficient than internal combustion, end of argument. Yes, petroleum, LNG, and other chemical fuels are more energy dense than existing batteries, but the whole problem is that there is massive loss of that energy when it is converted into work. Heat, noise, friction from all the gearing, transmissions, and so on, all waste a lot of that energy. With electricity you have none of those problems - electrons create a magnetic field, that spins a magnet, the magnet spins the wheel, and away you go.
I have no reason to disbelieve that electric powered cars are more efficient then the internal combustion engine in a vehicle. But I'm just speculating, unless we go all nuclear, hydro, wind, tidal etc., ...it is the combustion of the power in oil, natural gas, and coal that is transformed to electricity, and how efficient is that? I am also under the impression that over 7% of the power is lost in the transmission of that power thru heat loss in the power grid lines.
Another concern is whether our current outdated power grid infrastructure can handle the extra demand if consumers suddenly trade there internal combustion powered cars for a Volt. How much will it cost to upgrade the infrastructure needed to power these electric vehicles? Environmentalists are already fighting current attempts to modernize the grid.
I would also think that the price of copper will shoot way up because the demand for copper needed to make electric motors will go up. I'm thinking it would be a good idea to consider investing in some copper mines.
Either way you look at it, it's going to cost the consumers more money and for what? History has proven that the electric car has failed and IMO will fail again to meet its objective of cheap, clean, reliable transportation. Like I stated, its just a fad now and in a few years it will pass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebear
As for the CO2 taxes, don't think any money will go to the housing bailout. Everyone knows this is the UN's biggest business opportunity, ever.
I'm confident our politicians are intelligent enough to get in on their piece of the action too.
I'd hate to run a "hotrodded" electric car from a dig.. 100% TORQUE @ 0RPM! you might get embarrassed!
If battery technology gets even 20% better as a result of more and more electric cars being produced then the world has been done a huge favor.
The model T by todays standards is pathetic. Cars didnt get where they are by magic. People gotta buy electrics, then they get better with time. Demand will rule technologies pace. (barring odd eureka's). It always has.
IF I can swing one I'd buy it.
Last edited by BaldTurboFreak : 09-22-2008 at 11:24 AM.
Performance wise it will be very interesting to see this new generation of hardware/software hot rodding for electric cars. On a much smaller scale electric R/C airplanes dominate over nitro/gas planes. I wonder if cars will move in that direction. I have planes flying with twice the torque and twice the duration of their nitro brethren.
__________________
2008 Black/Black GXP, purchased 7/23 right off the train.
Mod#1 blacked-out headlights
Mod#2 GMPP Intake -I like to hear my turbo.
Mod#3 Special Sauce
Mod#4 Solo Street Race
'97 Burb.
"07 Charger R/T, Mama's car
Race #1 Charger 0 /Sol 1
__________________
2008 GXP
Auto, Air, Mud Gaurds
1971 z28
open chambered large D port .30 over BB
Six speed ROD
cold air hood
Eaton posi 12 bolt
44gallon Fuel Tank
