Chevy Volt official pictures

[bigblau]

Excellent feedback! As devils advocate, I just have two more concerns, the climate and the numbers.

1 -In northern states where the temperatures range from as low as -20 deg. F to 90 deg. F., will the battery charge be reliable? I know that during the summer months the charge on my mobile phone batteries last much longer then in the winter when I leave the phone in the car. The phone battery is Li-ion. Will this also be the case with the battery pacs in the Volt? Also, I have heard that cell phone batteries have been known to blow up when exposed to extreme heat. Could this happen to the battery pacs in the Volt?

2 - The numbers don't seem to add up. The Volt is estimated to cost from $35,000 to $45,000 minus a $7,000 Tax credit GM has been lobbying Congress so the Tax payers can pay for this worthy cause. So because we don't know the actual purchase price of the Volt, lets just guesstimate $40,000 and who knows what warranty, since we don't know how much the cost of replacing the battery pacs will be?"GM Chairman Says Chevy Volt Plug-In Hybrid To Be Priced 'Mid- to High-Thirties'" Green Car Advisor
So, without getting too complicated by counting residual value and all that other cost of ownership stuff, lets just figure $40,000 + (15,000 miles/yr * 3 cents per mile).

On average, electricity costs about $0.10/kWhr. The time you drive on electricity from the grid is worth about 3 cents per mile. If you get about 28 miles per gallon on the way to work in your normal car, at $3.75/gallon, a normal car costs you closer to 13.5 cents per mile driven - more if your average fuel price is higher or you get worse mileage.

A 2009 Chevrolet Aveo 4-dr sedan MSRPs for $11,460 with 5yr./100,000 warranty. The EPA gas mileage is 27city/34hwy. For simplicity lets just say it gets 28mpg at $3.78/gallon. So that's $11,460 + (15,000miles/yr. * 13.5 cents per mile).

There are several ways you could figure this out:

1 -(Volt - Aveo = Solstice GXP) in your garage or in other words:

($40,000 - $11,460 = $28,540)

2 -(5 years of Volt ownership - Aveo = 15.2 yrs. Free Gasoline for the Aveo) or in other words:

(($40,000) + ($450 * 5yrs of mileage cost) - $11,460) = ($30,790 / $2,025 yrly Aveo fuel cost) = 15.2 yrs. (228,000 miles) of FREE FUEL COST.

[mena661]

(($40,000) + ($450 * 5yrs of mileage cost) - $11,460) = ($30,790 / $2,025 yrly Aveo fuel cost) = 15.2 yrs. (228,000 miles) of FREE FUEL COST.

Thing is the Volt is definitely a more upscale car with features the Aveo won't have. Maybe you should use another more comparable car. Besides, buying a hybrid to save money doesn't make much economic sense unless you are in the market to buy another car in that price range (~$40k) anyways. And you're picking the Volt to save a bit on fuel costs over the other ~$40k car.

[bigblau]

Originally Posted by mena661 Thing is the Volt is definitely a more upscale car with features the Aveo won't have.

But like I stated, you could have an Aveo plus a Solstice GXP with all the features (employee pricing) for the price of one Volt.

(Volt - Aveo = Solstice GXP) in your garage or in other words: ($40,000 - $11,460 = $28,540)

=

[mena661]

Originally Posted by bigblau But like I stated, you could have an Aveo plus a Solstice GXP with all the features (employee pricing) for the price of one Volt.

Ah ha!! Didn't notice that. And you would still save some money for fuel. Wow!

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by mena661 Tesla's problem was the transmission, if I'm not mistaken. But they've figured it out now.

Sorry, I should be more precise. The torque produced by an electric motor is incredible and it comes on near-instantaneously. Axles and drive shafts, which are strong and hardly contain any moving parts, can and will stress to the point of failure under this torque. Adding a transmission or other gearing into the mix without having that system fail would be even harder. So yes, it is entirely understandable that Tesla, who has a vested interest and design goal to have a sporty, high-torque, high-power electric car, would have issues making this all work reliably.

Originally Posted by bigblau xcellent feedback! As devils advocate, I just have two more concerns, the climate and the numbers. 1 -In northern states where the temperatures range from as low as -20 deg. F to 90 deg. F., will the battery charge be reliable? I know that during the summer months the charge on my mobile phone batteries last much longer then in the winter when I leave the phone in the car. The phone battery is Li-ion. Will this also be the case with the battery pacs in the Volt? Also, I have heard that cell phone batteries have been known to blow up when exposed to extreme heat. Could this happen to the battery pacs in the Volt?

Yes, both are issues. LIons are still batteries and do perform less well in the cold. Likewise, they also perform less well in extreme heat, eventually making a pretty flame that looks great on Youtube.

In regards to Northern winters, it may actually be better for all involved to continue using some sort of internal combustion engine, as you trade efficiency for cold reliability and waste heat. Much of that waste heat helps keep the occupants and machinery warm. Frankly, I'd rather be stranded with an engine that keeps me warm instead of a battery pack that runs a space heater. This is especially the case if the battery pack itself is not heated and whose performance will degrade as it cools.

As for battery pack explosions, I can almost guarantee that GM will have some sort of monitoring and emergency disconnect system should some temperature threshold be reached. It would be too damaging to them to have a massive lawsuit or image problem with exploding Volts, even if it was the result of user tampering. Ford is still suffering from the fallout of the flipping Explorers and spontaneously-combusting vehicles with the goofy cruise control switches. To be perfectly serious about the problems with LIons in laptops that have exploded or otherwise caught fire - these problems have been due to cheap knock-offs being relabeled as brand-name batteries and entering the supply chains for major OEMs. Thus, that Dell or Sony battery may really be a cheapo produced by some corrupt Chinese company and pasted with a good label. Those are the ones that are tending to overheat and fail spectacularly. All this is for batteries selling for $100, too. Imagine the temptation to cut corners and fraudulently produce or remanufacture a $10,000 battery pack.

Originally Posted by bigblau 2 - The numbers don't seem to add up. The Volt is estimated to cost from $35,000 to $45,000 minus a $7,000 Tax credit GM has been lobbying Congress so the Tax payers can pay for this worthy cause. So because we don't know the actual purchase price of the Volt, lets just guesstimate $40,000 and who knows what warranty, since we don't know how much the cost of replacing the battery pacs will be?"GM Chairman Says Chevy Volt Plug-In Hybrid To Be Priced 'Mid- to High-Thirties'" Green Car Advisor So, without getting too complicated by counting residual value and all that other cost of ownership stuff, lets just figure $40,000 + (15,000 miles/yr * 3 cents per mile).

Several years ago when the Prius was just starting to catch on - even before $3 and $4 gas - they were going for $5k premiums and stuck on waiting lists. Here in California the price has come down, though if the unit comes with one of the coveted Clean Air Vehicle passes for the commuter lane, that itself can bring in another $5k. Anyway, way back when, I ran the numbers along with my father when he was thinking about buying one. What we found is that he was far better off buying a Corolla, Focus, or other small, traditionally-powered car, as the fuel savings would take 5-10 years to pay for the difference in cost. Eventually he settled for a heavily discounted Malibu by combining some GM incentives at the time and GMS through a relative. Even with it being a V6, and even with all the extra miles the past few years since he's retired, he still has spent less than had he gone with a Prius. So yes, the argument that the Volt is priced way too high still stands. It is not a luxury car yet is competing with them on cost.

[BellaVerde]

I just want to thank all the posters here for a VERY informative thread! This is what the internet is all about, or SHOULD be.

[mena661]

Anyone see this? Apparently, GM had announced a change to the Volt's powertrain. The change was that the engine would not be charging the batteries and that the batteries would only be charged when plugged in. Well, the following link is a change to the change.

As the Volt Turns: GM Exec Says Battery Will Recharge While Driving

[CoolCruiser]

Have any of you heard of compressed air vehicles?

Zero Pollution Motors - Air Car

I haven't seen any trust worthy verifiable resources. They are scheduled to be available in 2009, but there are no dealerships. They claim to sell directly from the factory to cut out the middleman and help reduce costs.

[bigblau]

I think the confusion stems from GM trying to convince the EPA that the "plug-in" hybrid category translates to at least 100mpg while a traditional "non-plug-in" like the Prius gets 30-40mpg -wink...wink.
KickingTires: EPA May Label Chevy Volt First 100 MPG Car

BTW, the U.S. senate just voted 93-2 to pass legislation creating a new tax credit for buyers of plug-in electric vehicles. A buyer of the Volt would appear eligible for the maximum $7,500 credit. Still unclear is whether congress has responded to objections from Toyota Motor North America Inc. Toyota complained that a previous version of the bill would only benefit plug-in hybrids.
U.S. senate OKs Volt-friendly plug-in tax credit - Automotive News Europe

On another note. Volkswagen's global head of sales, Detleg Wittig, says "the future is electric engines." VW is planning to have a plug-in electric hybrid similar to GMs Volt.
LPG like a bomb in the car: Industry executive - drive.com.au

[mena661]

100 mpg? I really don't like these conversion figures. I think that number is misleading at best. Anyone buying this car expecting 100 mpg is going to be a little upset.

[LatinVenom]

If your commute is 25 miles or less, you charge it every night, it is very likely you could do 100 mpg or higher.
Here in South Florida the terrain is pretty flat, so very little probability of having to use the gas engine, if your commute is 25 miles or less daily.

[mena661]

Originally Posted by LatinVenom If your commute is 25 miles or less, you charge it every night, it is very likely you could do 100 mpg or higher. Here in South Florida the terrain is pretty flat, so very little probability of having to use the gas engine, if your commute is 25 miles or less daily.

I see what you're saying but if you're not using the gas engine then you can't use the mpg figure as that accounts only for gas usage. When the gas engine comes on, it'll get X mpg then.

[bradyb]

Congress' bill is based on the amount of stored electrical energy with a minimal sized battery. A regular hybrid does not store energy from the grid so it does not need such a large battery, thus the Volt requires a large batter to be able to operate up to 100 miles an hour on just electric. A Prius or regular dual mode hybrid can't really go faster then 30 mph on just electric power alone. The regulation is designed for vehicles that have the capacity to power themselves at regular speeds with electric power; if Toyota wants to build such a vehicle their vehicle would be eligible for the tax credit as well. You folks have to understand the Volt is an electric car with a range extender ICE. The ICE in the Volt is not connected to the drive line in anyway.

As for range, let’s put on our thinking caps. The Volt has a 6 gallon tank with a range of about 300 miles, that's 50 miles per gallon on a full tank.

If you drive 60 miles a day and you get 40 miles with the battery that's 120 miles per gallon.

It's not hard to see the benefits people.

[mena661]

It's not hard to see the benefits people.

I'm not talking about its benefits, I'm talking about miles per gallon. An electric motor can't get any amount of miles per gallon because electric motors aren't powered by gas or any other type of liquid fuel. To be accurate, the EPA should put the engines MPG figure along with an EPA tested all electric range figure. To say an electric motor gets X mpg is simply misleading.

[rlhammon]

Originally Posted by mena661 I'm not talking about its benefits, I'm talking about miles per gallon. An electric motor can't get any amount of miles per gallon because electric motors aren't powered by gas or any other type of liquid fuel. To be accurate, the EPA should put the engines MPG figure along with an EPA tested all electric range figure. To say an electric motor gets X mpg is simply misleading.

Ok.. so I'm catching up on this thread.. just finished reading the full 4 pages and will start responding to some things.

First off.. it is not the *engine* which is rated when the EPA states Miles Per Gallon. It is the *vehicle* which is rated. If you can get that difference (and not trying to insult you or anyone with that comment)... the math is easy.

I *completely* understand your train of thought, that MPG should only be calculated when the ICE is running. However.. this is not what the calculation is, and your view of that is simply based on the fact that ICE only cars *always* have the engine running. Thus, you equate the MPG figure to the ICE running.

The math is correct... if the car runs on electricity for 40 miles, and then 100 miles on 2 gallons of gas... well, the car when 140 miles on two gallons of gas and the *vehilce* would get a EPA rating of 70 MPG.