SolsticeMan, great numbers but I think you need the exact numbers with exact driving dynamics to figure this all out.
I have read that the 1.4l will run at different speeds depending on required load. The engine will run with computer controlled-variable cams, direct injection. and advanced ignition to help maximize fuel consumption. The 1.4L operating as a generator will be much more dynamic then your regular Honda.
Although I highly agree that a diesel generator, or high compression gas/turbo with methanol injection would be better. A turbine generator would be awesome but of course the cost would not be so awesome.
40+-something highway mpg with ICE is what GM is leaking through gm-volt.com. 300+ mile range from 6 gallons of fuel has been mentioned as well.
I kind of wished they would have kept the second 6 gallon tank for a possible 560 mile range, with the battery pack running down the middle they were planning a corvette-style split tank.
__________________
2008 Black/Black GXP, purchased 7/23 right off the train.
Mod#1 blacked-out headlights
Mod#2 GMPP Intake -I like to hear my turbo.
Mod#3 Special Sauce
Mod#4 Solo Street Race
'97 Burb.
"07 Charger R/T, Mama's car
Race #1 Charger 0 /Sol 1
It also now frees up the ability to supply the energy, now that it's in a useful form.
High efficiency diesel CDTi Generator? Chuck the Gasoline ICE/Gen and plug 'er in.
Better battery? Chuck the ICE/Gen and plug 'er in, charge it at home or hi-power charging station.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell? Chuck the ICE/Gen and plug 'er in.
Multi-fuel useage recuperating turbine? Chuck the ICE/Gen and plug 'er in.
Hmm... can anyone say Solar on Surface... such as the "black" roof area / trunk area. Hmm... GM has a group working on this technology currently I believe.
Location: here or there, depending on one's perspective
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhammon
As to some of the other comments I've read in here... I wouldn't call this a *beta* test at all. This technology is being used in other areas today... take a look at large city buses, dump trucks, garbage trucks, and take a look at a company GM used to own (Allison). You'll see the very heart of this generator system was developed some time back and is in use today. To call this a *beta* test and imply that this is GM's first and only experience with this would be a disservice to GM IMHO.
It most definitely is a beta. GM has experience making large diesel electrics for trains, buses, and other mass-transit systems. They've not done something similar for something as small as a car, nor have they accumulated many miles on real roads to back up the system. Sure, they've vetted parts of the system, and these components share commonality with previous work, but they are not the same.
The trains don't have all the same control functions and don't have batteries to keep charged, either - the diesels run the alternator and the electrons go straight to the motors. Likewise, braking creates a charge in the motor and the energy is not stored but rather dissipated through resistors at the top of the locomotive. Bus-based systems are the first ones to look more like the Volt, with regenerative braking and a diesel generator that runs all of the time. IIRC their battery packs are small, similar in relative size to the Prius, and meant only to store a few moments worth of power coming from the brakes and allowing the generator to run at lower RPM. Like I said before, I don't think GM will have problems with the 1.4L engine, the generator, or the drive motors. Any problems will be with the battery and the control software, primarily because they don't yet exist anywhere outside R&D facilities.
And again, I completely agree they need to do this. I also agree it's overall a much more efficient thing to do than a straight ICE and it's a bridge to a completely electric vehicle. Conversion to electric drive also makes the components far more interchangeable. The point remains that there will be problems, the first couple model years will have issues, some off the bat, others with longevity (e.g. battery durability), and that how they handle this issues will likely make or break the company. No engineer or team of engineers are perfect - errors happen, some expected, some not. It's how you tackle them that makes or breaks you.
Location: Wilds of Canada, or the Pac NW, or the Upper Penninsula of MI...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhammon
Hmm... can anyone say Solar on Surface... such as the "black" roof area / trunk area. Hmm... GM has a group working on this technology currently I believe.
Non starter argument. Nice thought, but physics don't really support it.
at 100% efficiency, solar is about 1 kW per square meter in full sunlight striking the surface at 90º. Best solar cells today are only about 15% efficient - so each square meter will produce at max about 0.15 kW or one 150 watt lightbulb worth of energy.
It will only do so when the sun is shining. Any incident angle will reduce the power output.
A Cobalt is roughly 4.5m X 1.75m - including the hood, glass, roof and decklid. At most, it's about 7.75 square meters - but the roof and decklid (minus the hood and glass) are probably only about half or less of that, call it 3.5 square meters.
I remember from sizing systems for my house on average (too expensive, and another discussion) you needed to size about 1 square meter of photovoltaics per 100Watts - solar cells (silicon-based) have a non-trivial halflife to worry about - it's long, but at some point you'll deal with reduced output or replacement.
With really efficient solar cells on the roof and decklid (call them a fictional 20%), 3.5 square meters (a bit optimistic) and 90º incident angle (it's noon the whole time the sun is up) and a very sunny summer in Michigan (yearly average is 4 solar hours per day for an entire year, central/southeast michigan - call it a very optimistic 12 solar hours each day from May-August), assuming you always park it in an unshaded area:
1 kW X 20% X 3.5 m^2 X 12 hours = 8.4 kWhr per day. Yes, that's on average about 30 miles of range, but it took an infeasible solar cell and a very optimistic cloud free perpetually noon day to do it.... in 12 hours.
But in reality, we're really talking:
1 kW X 12% X 3.5 m^2 X 5.5 hours X 65% (incidence factor) = 1.5 kWhr per day. About 5 miles range.
The expected charging speed for straight-on noon sunlight and current tech solar cells is 1kW X 12% X 3.5 m^2 = .42 kW per hour - or at .280 kWhr/mile about 2 miles range charged per hour.
With a really efficient solar cell, a whopping 2.5 miles range charged per hour.
This means any driving faster than 2.5 miles per hour will outstrip any energy output by your solar cell. If you're driving on a rainy day or at night, you're fu... unhh... screwed.
Not to say this won't work at all (solar powering your Volt). Have a look at Martin Eberhard's teslafounders.com blog (Martin was ousted from Tesla Motors - nobody knows the full story - but then founded his blog) - there's a guy who actually put his money where his mouth is. He converted his home in the mountains to Solar - and sized the system to charge his Tesla too, and over any given year actually net-generates electricity.
It can be done, and I don't recall the exact figures, it was near the six-figure range to do (not millions). You can use solar to power your Volt - but packing cells on your roof is prolly a waste of time, and depending on how much mass it adds and whether it changes the shape of the car, might actually be worse than if you just used grid-sourced or home-solar sourced electricity to charge it.
What we really need is an invisible air-deflecting electro-magneto-gravitational forcefield that generates an invisible and fully optimized aerodynamic shape around any vehicle - you could have a dune buggy with a Cd of 0.002 and produces significant downforce when required...
Truthfully - solar and wind are power sources that are best used as fixed base power/energy generators. You only need 155 square meters (about 1600 square feet) of today's technology solar cells to power a large 2500 sq ft house with electric heat, charge your car for 60 miles per day, in southeast michigan given average solar insolation for the state. That's about half of the roof of such a house if it has no garage and is close to a 12/12 pitch (optimum angle for southern facing solar array for mid-michigan). If you have a garage, you can utilize the roof of that portion too...
Location: here or there, depending on one's perspective
SM, have you seen a lot of the setups in California and Arizona? Many companies and state facilities are erecting car shades over their parking lots which are covered with solar panels. These then feed back into the grid, or, at the more forward-thinking facilities, fast-charging stations for some of the pure-EVs out there. There is definitely no shortage of sun out here and since cars are usually parked in office lots it's a very sensible solution. Workers get shady, cool spots and less oxidation damage to their cars, the facilities get a break on energy bills, and cars get charged in an effective manner. While this may not work for cooler states such as Michigan, you have more than enough wind to compensate.
As for the argument against the Volt, I think this about sums it up.
As for the argument against the Volt, I think this about sums it up.
It's going to be a long two years, I don't think anyone is going to care what the Volt looks like Fall of 2010. Everyone will just want to know if it works and make sure the $7,500 tax credit is good for 2010.
I'm thinking a red metallic, black leather interior and a black metallic center stack. Also lower it 1.5 inches and get a light weight set of 18s.
__________________
2008 Black/Black GXP, purchased 7/23 right off the train.
Mod#1 blacked-out headlights
Mod#2 GMPP Intake -I like to hear my turbo.
Mod#3 Special Sauce
Mod#4 Solo Street Race
'97 Burb.
"07 Charger R/T, Mama's car
Race #1 Charger 0 /Sol 1
Everything about the Volt, he says, works like a conventional car, except there's no noise. "There's one thing we can do, for people who miss the sound of the engines, we sell them a CD…with various engine sounds. So you'll be able to pick a Ferrari V12 or, you know, Le Mans Corvette," Lutz explains.
Quote:
"$40,000 is not an everyman car by any stretch," Stahl remarks.
"That's true," he agrees.
To get buyers, GM will have to sell the car at a loss, which is bad news for a company already burning a billion dollars in cash every month. "I'll tell you what, we can afford a tiny little loss on a car. But we can't afford a $20,000 loss per car. That's just not on," Lutz tells Stahl.
That’s because GM is in financial straits. Bob Lutz is trying not only to produce a moneymaker, but also prove with the Chevy Volt that his company and his town are still the address for innovative cars.
"So, a lot about General Motors' reputation and image is riding on this? To say the least?" Stahl asks.
"That is probably an understatement," Lutz admits.
"So basically in your mind, it has to succeed?" Stahl asks.
Says Lutz, laughing, "Of course, it does. For what it's worth, I stake my reputation on it."
Looks like Lutz's plug-in Volt may have some more competition. The Audi A1 Sportback will provide more electric range than the Volt and also offer sportier performance with its 1.4L Turbo/Supercharged engine. Anybody rushing out to buy some GM stock?
Quote:
Audi A1 Sportback Concept offers serious competition to Chevy Volt!
At work under the hood is a 1.4-litre TFSI engine developing 110 kW (150 hp), whose power is directed to the front wheels by means of the S tronic dual-clutch transmission. A 20 kW (27 hp) electric motor integrated in the drive train is able to deliver up to an additional 150 Nm of torque (110.63 lb-ft) when the vehicle is accelerating. During the boosting phase, i.e. when the TFSI engine and electric motor operate simultaneously to enable a sporty driving style, the two power packs deliver impressive propulsion. The tried-and-tested front-wheel drive – supplemented by the newly developed, ESP-controlled active front differential lock – ensures optimum transfer of power to the road.
The electric motor is furthermore capable of powering the vehicle alone for zero-emission driving in residential areas, for instance. The capacity of the lithium-ion batteries gives the vehicle a range of up to 100 km (62.14 miles) in pure electric mode; the motor can be recharged from any power socket. The automatic start/stop facility, energy regeneration and phases of purely electrical operation reduce the fuel consumption and emissions of the Audi A1 Sportback concept by almost 30 percent compared to when it is running on the combustion engine alone. Despite its sporty performance, with acceleration of 0 to 100 km/h (62.14 mph) in 7.9 seconds and a top speed of 200 km/h (124.27 mph), the Audi A1 Sportback concept requires only 3.9 liters of premium fuel per 100 km (60.31 US mpg); CO2 emissions are an efficient 92 g/km (148.06 g/mile)
Location: here or there, depending on one's perspective
I swear the front end of this thing looks like something out of a cartoon. Those headlights reveal some repressed German anger. While it looks nice it remains to be seen if it's produced, how much it will cost, and whether the actual engineering comes through on the powertrain. GM has a few months head start in all this but the Volt is still a huge gamble they have to win with.
GM has a few months head start in all this but the Volt is still a huge gamble they have to win with.
Not sure what your involvement with the auto industry is, but you often speak as if you have some good insight...
With that said, I'll respectively disagree... I would say GM has much more than a few months head start. Granted I certainly don't follow Audi's development (only worked with them on a few projects and have no good contacts that I keep in touch with currently), but I have a good knowledge of where the Volt stands, testing that has been done, is being done, as well as the timing plans internally to pull this off.
I'll say GM has the ability to pull this off, on time (Nov. 2010), and with the business decisions I've seen made... well, there's a commitment. Anyone who questions that, should ask why the C7 has been canceled and the Volt is moving on if they don't believe there is commitment to the highest levels of the company. Heck... just about every single person working on the Volt program has been hand picked / recommended by their supervisor and many in critical areas (either critical to the cars success or critical by timing) have had most / all of their other responsibilities handed off so they can focus on the Volt.
While I wish I could openly comment on everything I am aware of.. I can say GM is ahead of where they would be on a normal car launch at this time, and things are every bit accelerated.
I'm just not sure Audi or any of the others out there (Chrysler) are this far along... and that the difference is much closer to a full year, if not slightly more. As I said, I follow GM much closer than other OEM's, so I could be wrong... but for GM, this car is *the* car they are working on and it seems to show. I hope for all of us that the other OEM's are closer.. nothing wrong with competition.
Location: Rosamond, CA - Home of Willow Springs Raceway
The Audi isn't a serial hybrid, it's a standard hybrid. No new ground here. The Volt is serial. New ground here and no comparison. Besides, I'd bet my left testie that the Audi is closer to $50k base and I think I'm being conservative.
__________________
2007 Cool GXP with Darkside Top, 5 spd, Ebony Cloth, Monsoon with Single CD, Sport Pedals, XM, A/C
Mods - Solo Street/Race Exhaust, K&N Drop-in Air Filter, EDAL
The Audi isn't all that different from an Insight or Prius, it requires an ICE once you get on the road. Blau good try at trying to interject an Audi or V6 into absolutley every thread that you post to!
With the Volt I can drive to work with out using any gas.
__________________
2008 Black/Black GXP, purchased 7/23 right off the train.
Mod#1 blacked-out headlights
Mod#2 GMPP Intake -I like to hear my turbo.
Mod#3 Special Sauce
Mod#4 Solo Street Race
'97 Burb.
"07 Charger R/T, Mama's car
Race #1 Charger 0 /Sol 1
The Audi isn't a serial hybrid, it's a standard hybrid. No new ground here. The Volt is serial. New ground here and no comparison. Besides, I'd bet my left testie that the Audi is closer to $50k base and I think I'm being conservative.
No, but it's a dual parallel-serial hybrid drivetrain that can run 62.14 miles on pure electric power, or sport mode for longer, faster inter-state travel. IMO, this makes it more desirable then the Volt.
But if you think you can't afford the quality of an Audi, then how about a TwinDrive dual parallel-serial hybrid VW Rabbit peoples' car? My point is that there is going to be a lot of competition in this electric car fad and although I understand that GM needs to keep up, I don't think that the Volt will do much more then get GM much needed short term government cash into their general daily operations (ops I mean electric car) fund. What happens to electric car if oil goes below $50 a barrel like it was just a couple of years ago?
Quote:
A few months ago, to much excitement from the automotive press, the company unveiled a diesel-electric Golf but, according to VW chief Martin Winterkorn, “the future belongs to electric cars.” To help in mapping out the road to this electric future, the company have unveiled a plug-in hybrid powertrain, called the Twin-Drive, which will make its first appearance in a Golf kitted out with a 122-horsepower diesel engine, twinned with an 82-horsepower electric motor.
A key difference between the VW approach and typical hybrids is that instead of the battery providing supplemental power to the combustion engine, the Twin-Drive will work the other way around. According to Winterkorn, “here the diesel or gasoline engine supplements the e-motor.”
The car will use lithium-ion batteries and have a range of 31 miles on purely electric power. Over the last few months, Volkswagen has invested heavily in li-ion battery technology. In addition to teaming up with Sanyo in a $769 million dollar development project, the company has also formed the Lithium-Ion Battery 2015 Alliance (LIB2015) with Bosch, BASF, Evonik and others, backed up by a €60 million investment from the German government.
Volkwagen says it will have a test-fleet of twenty Twin-Drive Golf’s on the road in 2010, but there is still no news on plans to ramp-up commercial production. Given the level of investment being ploughed into the technology, I have a hunch that such an announcement won’t be too long in coming.
