This is the main point I keep trying to stress but seems to be continually overlooked. GM was developing a high feature V8 that would have been the future Cady/C7 engine but the project was officially canceled. GM has two options;
Pushrod V8 variants
Evolution of the LS3 as some sort of future version - easiest development of them all, could provide small quick turn around but will provide the least HP/MPG benefits, could be shared across Corvette/Camaro/CTS/G8
Smaller displacement super/turbo pushrod V8 version - could provide more HP and better fuel economy, maintains V8 image, possibly more development time and cost, could be shared across Corvette/Camaro/CTS/G8
Twin Turbo V6 VVT and DI - would require the most upfront development but could provide the largest benefit (weight/cost/mpg), could be shared across any of GM's vehicles using a V8/V6 currently greatly lowering costs overall
GM is bleeding money like there's now tomorrow. They just don't have the money to keep throwing at specialty items anymore. They killed the high feature V8 because they knew it just wouldn't be worth it in the long run. After killing that engine they're not going to start development up again of an engine like it again for a very long time.
True. And, the LS family is where GM is likely to go with evolution of this small block pushrod design over time. The market is shifting, and the need for V-8s in performance vehicles may be shrinking significantly over time. Offering a high feature V-6 in the Corvette, XLR, Camaro, CTS and G8 may make economic sense 10-15 years down the road, but convincing those associating GM premium power with a V-8 and forcing them to accept a V-6 no matter the feature content may prove very difficult and the upfront costs may be staggering, especially given GMs current cash situation. In a shrinking market, can GM afford to put the upfront development costs into play while foregoing its bread and butter sedans, trucks, and cross-overs.
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Just look at the average corvette owner. How many of them would have opted for a v6 if it was available. My guess is not many. I can't see this happening any time soon.
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you guys are talking about people who already have vettes, not people who don't have vettes, and while there are some who "wouldn't buy it if it didn't have an 8", their are others whow WOULD buy it if that 6 cylendar makes it the best performing vette ever
I cannot understand nor will ever why you guys want to subcatagorize the "v", as I am told, the straight is a better engine but I guess that's for another discussion
on the other hand, those of you who think their won't be a di 8 cylendar from gm are wrong and as far as I can see they MUST develope more efficient technology, that is why they are scaling down redundant brands and models
I remember when I was in high school, my friend had a jaguar 6 cylendar and he used to brag;
"I have a 6 cylendar that will blow your doors off"
of course all the suped up 8's with more bravado then brains took the bet and lost...every time
If I am right, vette owners buy their car because it is performance king dollar for dollar, so long as they outperform cars tripple the price, they will still get the vette
but that remains to be seen, can gm actually make a c banging vette that outperfomrs their 8 cylendar?
how...the car already weighs almost nothing, reducing the weight to compensate for the lost horsepower and torque does not seem like it can possibly be productive
With intercooler, charge piping, turbos, heavy duty exhaust manifolds, additional oil lines, etc... a DOHC V6 is bit heavier then a light weight pushrod LSx engine. Hell, a DOHC V6 with out turbos is heavier then a LSx engine. A 500 horse LS7 weighs what 360 pounds?
Either some people are currently afflicted with alzheimer’s or they have really bad memories. We have been down this road many many many times before.
FACT.
A LS Series Engine from GM weighs much less then a Dual Over Head Cam V6 engine. The LS engines are all aluminum with composite intake manifolds, hydraformed exhaust manifolds, very few parts, etc.
FACT.
LS Series Engines that are mass produced (LS2, LS3, etc...) are cheaper to manufacture then a DI DOHC V6. The V6 has three additional cams, 2 additional chain drives, larger heads, balance shafts, etc...
Go compare mileage, 02 SS Camaro vs 09 RS Camaro (LS1 vs DIV6)
What is the weight difference between a ZO6 and a GTR (give the GTR a 200 pound handicap for AWD)
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you guys are talking about people who already have vettes, not people who don't have vettes, and while there are some who "wouldn't buy it if it didn't have an 8", their are others whow WOULD buy it if that 6 cylendar makes it the best performing vette ever
I cannot understand nor will ever why you guys want to subcatagorize the "v", as I am told, the straight is a better engine but I guess that's for another discussion
Great point Perris. GM is hemorrhaging money in North America. But they are increasing sales and making money in their other global operations. An affordable V6 Corvette will most certainly increase sales, increase production numbers of the Corvette brand built in Bowling Green by UAW workers, and subsequently increase global profits.
Today we are in a global economy which provides the automotive industry with more opportunity. This globalization has also made other countries more aware of the environmental concerns, particularly CO2 emissions. It has only been during the past two years that gasoline prices have soared in the United States. But gasoline prices have historically been much higher all around the world. Because of the higher gasoline prices and an international agreement to lower greenhouse emissions Europe and other regions have mandated policies to curb greenhouse CO2 gas emissions. This has forced manufacturers such as Ferrari to consider offering a FI V6 in an effort to keep high-performance a priority while accommodating strict emissions rules. The V6 emits 15% fewer CO2 emissions.
The V6 was first pioneered by Lancia and Ferrari in the 50s. But it was not until the mid 70s when the logical V6 design re-emerged suddenly and decisively underscored by the 1972 Arab oil embargo, escalating gasoline prices, and increased restrictive governmental regulations. This caused the automobile industry to subsequently offer smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient cars.
According to Pat Ganahl, author of V6 Performance, “The V6 is in several ways an engine of compromises; most are positive, some are negative. But they add up to an engine that is right for the era of compromises in which we find ourselves. The factors that make the V6 appealing for today’s cars also make it the primary performance engine of the future, at least for as long as piston-type engines remain in production. We are ruling out, of course, some new-found wealth of petroleum deposits or a low-cost substitute for gasoline, both of which appear unlikely.”
A new DOHC VVT DI TT V8 would be slightly superior over comparable V6s in terms of balance, smoothness of power pulses, and even volumetric efficiency. Should GM decide to build a new DOHC VVT DI TT V8 it would still cost more to produce on a per-unit basis and weigh more as compared to the V6 design. But as Brentil has mentioned, GM killed the engine that would have been the C7's V8 and of course unless fuel drops below $3/gallon again and GM stops bleeding $20/billion per quarter and decide to start the project back up again. http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/749044-post28.html
Now the V6 versus I-6. If engine size and weight didn’t matter, most designers would choose the I-6 over the V6 configuration because of the I-6 inherent balance. But there are other differences that can affect net power or efficiency. The V6 design usually weighs less then I-6 and that is weight that the V6 does not have to pull translating to higher HP per pound ratio for the V6. If the V6 is lower in overall height then the car can have a more aerodynamic hoodline which means more usable power at highway speeds. If the V6 is shorther then the I-6, then the car can be smaller thus further reducing its weight. All these factors also improve fuel economy and performance. The V6 is also easier and less expensive to cast, machine and build then I-6. Except for BMW, all automotive manufacturers are swithching to V6 from I-6 for there cars. Even Jaguar and Mercedes Benz, famous for their I-6s, have switched to V6.
“Structurally, the V6 design makes a much more rigid engine then the I-6. The I-6 block gives support in the vertical plane, but hardly any in the horizontal. Whereas the V6 suffers some inertia vibrations, the I-6 has always been plagued with crankshaft tensional vibration and flexing. The extremely short length of the V6 crank adds to it strength. Current I-6 use seven main bearings to reduce crank bending, but this increases frictional losses; V6 need only four mains. The straight six also suffers twisting and bending of the camshafts because of their long length.” The main idea is that all engines are a complex system of compromises. Those compromises mean more than whether the case is arranged in a straight line or in a Vee.
Great point Perris. GM is hemorrhaging money in North America. But they are increasing sales and making money in their other global operations. An affordable V6 Corvette will most certainly increase sales, increase production numbers of the Corvette brand built in Bowling Green by UAW workers, and subsequently increase global profits.
Today we are in a global economy which provides the automotive industry with more opportunity. This globalization has also made other countries more aware of the environmental concerns, particularly CO2 emissions. It has only been during the past two years that gasoline prices have soared in the United States. But gasoline prices have historically been much higher all around the world. Because of the higher gasoline prices and an international agreement to lower greenhouse emissions Europe and other regions have mandated policies to curb greenhouse CO2 gas emissions. This has forced manufacturers such as Ferrari to consider offering a FI V6 in an effort to keep high-performance a priority while accommodating strict emissions rules. The V6 emits 15% fewer CO2 emissions.
The V6 was first pioneered by Lancia and Ferrari in the 50s. But it was not until the mid 70s when the logical V6 design re-emerged suddenly and decisively underscored by the 1972 Arab oil embargo, escalating gasoline prices, and increased restrictive governmental regulations. This caused the automobile industry to subsequently offer smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient cars.
According to Pat Ganahl, author of V6 Performance, “The V6 is in several ways an engine of compromises; most are positive, some are negative. But they add up to an engine that is right for the era of compromises in which we find ourselves. The factors that make the V6 appealing for today’s cars also make it the primary performance engine of the future, at least for as long as piston-type engines remain in production. We are ruling out, of course, some new-found wealth of petroleum deposits or a low-cost substitute for gasoline, both of which appear unlikely.”
A new DOHC VVT DI TT V8 would be slightly superior over comparable V6s in terms of balance, smoothness of power pulses, and even volumetric efficiency. Should GM decide to build a new DOHC VVT DI TT V8 it would still cost more to produce on a per-unit basis and weigh more as compared to the V6 design. But as Brentil has mentioned, GM killed the engine that would have been the C7's V8 and of course unless fuel drops below $3/gallon again and GM stops bleeding $20/billion per quarter and decide to start the project back up again. http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/749044-post28.html
Now the V6 versus I-6. If engine size and weight didn’t matter, most designers would choose the I-6 over the V6 configuration because of the I-6 inherent balance. But there are other differences that can affect net power or efficiency. The V6 design usually weighs less then I-6 and that is weight that the V6 does not have to pull translating to higher HP per pound ratio for the V6. If the V6 is lower in overall height then the car can have a more aerodynamic hoodline which means more usable power at highway speeds. If the V6 is shorther then the I-6, then the car can be smaller thus further reducing its weight. All these factors also improve fuel economy and performance. The V6 is also easier and less expensive to cast, machine and build then I-6. Except for BMW, all automotive manufacturers are swithching to V6 from I-6 for there cars. Even Jaguar and Mercedes Benz, famous for their I-6s, have switched to V6.
“Structurally, the V6 design makes a much more rigid engine then the I-6. The I-6 block gives support in the vertical plane, but hardly any in the horizontal. Whereas the V6 suffers some inertia vibrations, the I-6 has always been plagued with crankshaft tensional vibration and flexing. The extremely short length of the V6 crank adds to it strength. Current I-6 use seven main bearings to reduce crank bending, but this increases frictional losses; V6 need only four mains. The straight six also suffers twisting and bending of the camshafts because of their long length.” The main idea is that all engines are a complex system of compromises. Those compromises mean more than whether the case is arranged in a straight line or in a Vee.
that's a great post and now I know why the v6 is a preferred configuration over the straight
that's a great post and now I know why the v6 is a preferred configuration over the straight
thanx for that
\It is a great post. However, BMW does an exceptional job with its I-6 and the TT job in the E92 335i is top notch. Added the Dinan ECM download, and I'll wager NO V-6 under 3.2L FI or otherwise has the torque curve or specific output of BMWs TT I-6. I hope BMW keeps the I-6 for as long as I linve, that is certain. Blau speaks good knowledge, but there is a reason BMW continues with an I-6---they eschew packaging by continuing with the montra of long hood, short deck, RWD performance coupes, sedans, and roadsters. That is why I love them.
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Maybe not a V6 Diesel, although GM has a good one available. But like it or not, I think GM will eventually be forced to put a V6 in a Corvette. Why? Because the world is changing and strict world wide government fuel economy and CO2 regulations will require it. Who knows, Corvette may even have a Turbo I-4 -heaven forbid, wash my mouth out with soap.
But this is serious stuff. Even Forumula One racing is considering using a 2.2L V6 diesel for 2011.
Quote:
Max Mosely and the FIA are looking at some radically different and more restrictive rules for the future of Formula One racing. For the past couple of years, they’ve talked about trying to make the cars more eco-friendly and relevant to real world cars. The latest proposals are an interesting step in that direction.
For 2011 and beyond, Mosely wants the cars powered by turbocharged 2.2L V-6 engines running on biofuel. When F1 cars first ran turbos in the 1980s, there was initially a period where they ran unlimited boost and rpm and teams were building special qualifying engines that put out over 1,000hp from 1.5L! This time, it’s likely to be a little different, with a 10,000 rpm rev limit, a standardized ECU, and stricter restrictions on the fuel content.
So far, there’s no indication of what type of biofuel would be used, though given the current success of Audi and Peugeot with their LeMans prototypes, biodiesel seems a likely candidate. The big question is, can you imagine a diesel Ferrari running around Monaco or Monza?
Q: Your thinking is, the world is changing, so Forumula One racing has to change too. If you get your way, will Formula One Cars be 'eco-cars' in four years' time?
Max Mosley: Sounds amusing doesn't it? But the problem is a serious one. The Grand Prix sport has to rethink and change if it wants to survive. Formula One does not happen on another planet, so we have to adapt to reality.
These green regulations are even forcing Ferrari to consider developing a FI V6.
Why government regualtions are getting so bad that it may even force BMW to replace its beloved smooth running I-6 with a Turbo I-4.
Quote:
O’Donnell confirmed that BMW is working a 4-cylinder engine that will deliver better performance, lower emissions and better fuel-economy than the current 6-cylinders.
True. And, the LS family is where GM is likely to go with evolution of this small block pushrod design over time. The market is shifting, and the need for V-8s in performance vehicles may be shrinking significantly over time. Offering a high feature V-6 in the Corvette, XLR, Camaro, CTS and G8 may make economic sense 10-15 years down the road, but convincing those associating GM premium power with a V-8 and forcing them to accept a V-6 no matter the feature content may prove very difficult and the upfront costs may be staggering, especially given GMs current cash situation. In a shrinking market, can GM afford to put the upfront development costs into play while foregoing its bread and butter sedans, trucks, and cross-overs.
I agree a good majority of current Corvette owners would not be happy with a V6 at this time in the Corvette. That's why I think it should be a base engine for the cheapest version, but at the same time still offer a V8 like the LS3 in the Corvette as a slight upper option. Make the TT V6 20+ HP less than whatever V8 is in there at the time. Like a 400HP V6 and a 430HP V8 or higher if they have a better version by then. That way those current Corvette owners who don't care have a choice and anyone out there who what engines is in the Corvette isn't as important as the overall car. I could see the TT engine bringing in a new crowd of people possibly too. Who knows, I just think it's been a pretty good topic to debate at least. I like razzing my friend who has a 2007 Mustang GT about Ford putting in an i4 EcoBoost or V6 EcoBoost engine in to make him go off about the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyb
FACT.
A LS Series Engine from GM weighs much less then a Dual Over Head Cam V6 engine. The LS engines are all aluminum with composite intake manifolds, hydraformed exhaust manifolds, very few parts, etc.
FACT.
LS Series Engines that are mass produced (LS2, LS3, etc...) are cheaper to manufacture then a DI DOHC V6. The V6 has three additional cams, 2 additional chain drives, larger heads, balance shafts, etc...
Information direct from all the official GM documentation. Shows the V6 VVT and 3.6L DI are both lighter than the currently used LSx series of engines. Depending on the application a TT 3.6L DI 20 lbs less or more than a LS2/3/7.
Now on the topic of price, I don't have the exact numbers of GM's prices but the crate engine V6's are cheaper than the crate engine V8s. I believe a lot of that has to do with the economics of size. They produce hundreds of thousands of the V6 series, the base parts are used in all their bread and butter sedans that sell the most of, and it's also in a good number of their SUVs, and will also be in the Camaro and CTS. However right now they only have the LS3 in the Corvette/G8/Camaro which doesn't even crest 100,000 units per year total for all the V8 sales.
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But like it or not, I think GM will eventually be forced to put a V6 in a Corvette. Why? Because the world is changing and strict world wide government fuel economy and CO2 regulations will require it.
Since they sell the Corvette in Euro regions that might be more important over there sooner than here. They're huge on the CO2 reduction over there. I'll have to go look the specifications up again too see what the legislation requirements are over there. That's part of why Porsche rebought VW so they have a line of small cars to help offset the Porsche engines which are the highest CO2 engines in Europe. Yeah, EURO 5 is 120 g/km CO2 emissions, which wont be required for a couple more years. Comparatively here are some cars values;
2008 Corvette LS3: 316 g/km
2008 Corvette ZO6 LS7: 350 g/km
2007 Vauxhall VXR8 6.0L LS2: 365 g/km
2007 Cady CTS 3.6L V6 VVT: 275 g/km
2008 Cady STS 3.6L V6 DI: 258 g/km
2008 Opel GT LNF 2.0L DI Turbo: 218 g/km (Solstice GXP)
In Europe they use to impose a tax on cars with engines larger then 2.0L. But a little over a year a go they changed that. Now they tax you according to the cars CO2 rating. Of course big output V12, V10, V8, and even V6 engines get taxed higher since they emit more CO2.
This is already having effects on manufacturers like BMW who have seen a dramatic reduction in V8 and even I-6 sales world wide.
Quote:
Despite the luxury segment usually remaining fairly resilient to environmental concerns and rising fuel costs, BMW hasn’t produced its V8 engines at full capacity for the past year and demand is expected to fall further.
IMO it will be imperative that GM offer a V6 Corvette in order to compete not only in Europe but in the U.S. as well. The Bush administration has done all it can to stall more stringent Kyoto standards in the U.S. But his administration will end in 2009. Watch out after that. EPA Won't Act on Emissions This Year
I really don't see a logical reason for the opposition to the V6 Corvette. After all, the Corvette was meant to be a 6-cylinder. The most valuable sought-after Corvette by collectors is the 1953 Blue Flame 6-cylinder. The V8 Corvette was just an after thought. The Corvette was suppose to have a 6-cylinder, just like the Solstice is suppose to have a I-4 cylinder -no V6 for Solstice. Not only that, what's the problem if you can have a cleaner, more efficient affordable V6 Corvette that can possibly outperform a V8? Smaller, lighter, faster, and most importantly PC (eco-friendly).
According to Road & Track, there is already a tuner working on developing a very compact supercharger for the 3.6L DI V6 -"soon to become the preferred V6 unit across the entire GM brand." The 3.6L DI V6 is predicted to produce over 400HP with only 4.5psi of boost.
Noticing the majority objection to a V6 Corvette. Does anyone have any objection to a 2-seat short wheel based (SWB) Alpha platform based V6 powered roadster marketed as the affordable, smaller, lighter, more efficient, fewer CO2 emitting eco friendly baby brother alternative to the Corvette?
With rumored Corvette chief engineer Tom Wallace retiring, the downsizing of GM by dropping the Pontiac from the line-up as its performance brand, Kappa platform being terminated for 2011 MY, the future C7 Corvette design dropped until 2014, and stricter CAFE standards, what are the chances that we will see a entry-level Corvette with a 400HP Supercharged version of the 3.6L DI V6 in a updated C6 for 2012-2013 MY -the 60th year anniversary of the Corvette?
Currently, no internal plans for such a car. That could change, but I am sure GM will tread lightly with what they do with the Corvette. Sell enough Volts, and they can keep stuffing V8's in Corvettes.
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