GXP FE3 Suspension not the FE3 from ZOK as advertise by GM

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by LatinVenom Jimbo here is a quote from SM on the weight distribution when answering my question about the 22lbs difference.

LV,

There is no doubt that all those wonderful new ponies are sitting right on the hood. The Solstice never had a 50%/50% FR weight distribution. And frankly, I was kind of glad. I like a touch of understeer on the street. I know how to kick out the rear end on a car that understeers but I have NO CLUE how to handle a car that oversteers at the limit. I panic, lift my foot off the gas, and then I am screwed.

Anyway, the GXP turbo plumbing and intercooler and intercooler fluid all goes right on the very nose of the car, so it is not surprising at all to me that the tail is going to get a little bit lighter and our baby Vette just got pushed slightly in the direction of a baby Camaro.

What has always been surprising to me is that GM let Pontiac have a true sports car rather that an economy car under that sheet metal. I was also pleasantly surprised they offered a seriously fast car. I was hoping for and expecting MAYBE 225 horsepower.

One thing that did not surprise me is that some trade-offs occured upgrading the Solstice into near Porsche performance territory. I don't agree when people say the GXP must be better in every performance category than the base car. That was never promised to us. That would be nice, but for a measly $2000 over a base car similarly equipped, I realized something had to give.

I am only a bit bummed that you and some others found this handling Nirvana and then you expected to get better cars that felt at least as good and that didn't happen. It is not hard to put myself in your place. I think I would be bummed.

At this point, I'm counting my blessings that I never owned a Solstice, so when the GXP does what it does, I won't know any better and I'll be happy.

Just glad you could figure out this mystery.

Just for fun, that 22-lb change in exhaust weight is nothing compared to a tank of gas. Your tank holds 13 gallons, which weighs over 80 pounds. As you have taught me, we don't want to go lightening the rear end any more than it comes from the factory. I guess anybody who gets a cat-back will need to add ballast to the trunk to make up the difference.

I guess the lesson is, keep your gas tank nice and tight when you can.

[LatinVenom]

Well do not call it extra weight since that was the original weight of the OEM exhaust system, and yes a bit less oversteer and no impact on corner entry.
The impact of the full tank of gas and additional weight is on the take off but not by much.

[jimbo]

LV,

Sounds good! It sounds like those people who just don't need the power are going to benefit from the best weight distribution and it will just come down to how power hungry you are. For me, the base car is just unsuitable due to the lack of power. I loved everything else about it. For me, the GXP is well worth the small trade off caused by inferior weight distribution.

I am betting that the next generation addresses this from the ground up and the high-performance variant and base car have similar weight distribution.

But then, it won't have quite the soul of this car. There is only one 1st generation for any classic American automobile.

Thanks again for sharing what you learned.

This will be an easy test for everybody. Drive your GXP bone dry, fill the gas tank to the brim and drive it again. The change should be noticeable. I own a 4500-lb Chevy Silverado and I can definitely tell a differnce in both ride and handling with the tank dry vs. filled with 22 gallons of gas, which drastically shifts the weight backward. That is 140 pounds of gas, which is about the same as your GXP.

That is, 81 pounds of gas in a 3000 pound car is about 3% and 138 pounds of gas in a 4500 pound truck is about 3%. Only in your case, I think the gas tank is even further behind the center of the car than the tank in my truck.

[vermontster]

Thanks LV Sounds like the "handling" will be easy to adjust

[JUSTICE]

LV, so if I remember you had your exhaust put on before you even started driving your car right? So your perception of the handling the whole time has been with 22lbs less distributed more towards the back than the front.

[vermontster]

like s-man had hoped for,it would be nice to be able to buy the gmpp shocks seperate from the springs. Can any influintial people here bring that about???

[RobL]

Originally Posted by jimbo Based on what? Lets use your example that Stabilitrak kicks in at 80%, which I think is laughably low. You own a GXP with Stabilitrak. You know the tires will slip and go sideways before stabilitrak even kicks in. That tells me that Stabilitrack kicks in AFTER you exceed 100% tire grip, NOT before. But lets use your assumption that Stabilitrack kicks in at 80%. [some completely incorrect calculations were performed here because jimbo didn't read and understand my post] YOU can't say. I can't say. WE can't say because unless you designed the system, you have no clue how much braking force 2 brakes apply to the car. Remember that the brakes are applied to the front of one corner and the rear of the opposite corner and ONLY applied just long enough to straighten the car out. They don't lock up four brakes. They don't stay on longer than needed to straighten the car. In fact, if you are driving in such a manner as not to drive your ass off the road, Stabilitrak won't kick in at all! It only kicks in when you have fish-tailed so damn bad that you are sending you spinning the rear end into a ditch. Rob, I am really starting to wonder if you have ever engaged Stabilitrak at all off of an autocross track. Have you? Are you trying to tell me that when you drive on local roads the stabilitrak is engaging and slowing you down mile after mile, corner after corner? Because stabilitrak is not supposed to engage at all until the car thinks you have completely lost control of it and it is running off the road and needs a very hard, immediate correction. Stabilitrak is NOT supposed to be something that is used to help you race through a curve at the correct cornering speeds. I have read review after review on the Ford Mustang's stability system which clearly lets a driver hang the tail out on a Mustang a good little bit before the stability every kicks in. So the brakes never engage driving a Mustang like that. I like to believe the GXP's system is similar. You can hang the ass end out a bit and Stabilitrak does not engage until the system thinks you've crossed the point of no return. I would say any driver who is driving on the street with stability control engaging regularly is a dangerous driver and shouldn't have a license. That tells me, once he gets back into a RWD car without stabilty control, he is going to be fishtailing all over the road until he kills somebody or wraps his car around a telephone pole. Stability control is just for emergenices. I have heard it called "active handling" but I don't believe it. You should not be driving so wildly and dangerously that you otherwise would crash your car and stability control has to save you bacon time and time again. Not on the street. Not even on a track. It may come in handy on a track, but you shouldn't be driving so wild as to depend on it on a track and if you do, then you deserve all the nanny-induced braking you get. I can't speak to autocross, and I am beginning to wonder if your entire outlook about the power-robbing effects of Stabilitrak aren't confined to autocrossing in parking lots, which is NOT what Stabilitrak was designed for.

Talk about shooting the messenger.

REREAD WHAT I WROTE!!! I said that it ENGAGES at 80% of max. cornering. Stabilitrack then DROPS THE POWER TO ZERO - ZILCH - NADA - NOTHING - NIET. So all your power calculations about how much power the GXP should have coming out of the apex are WRONG. And THEN IT STILL APPLIES THE BRAKES.

How the hell do YOU know when it engages? I can tell you with 100% certainty that it does engage BEFORE you get yourself into trouble. If max skidpad is .86, the accelerometer in the car could start cutting power as soon as it senses .75 - long before the tires have broken free. It is there for John Q. Yahoo who thinks that he is one of the Schumacher brothers. It is intentionally set low for the yahoos. This is why they have a button that can change it into any one of 4(!) different engagement points and type of engagement. Yes - there are 4 settings for Stabilitrac.

Now, I do get it a lot on the road. It annoys the hell out of me because it engages too soon and CUTS THE POWER TO NOTHING. So as I'm making my left hand turn into traffic and need to accelerate the computer sees "turn" and "hard acceleration" and then drops the power when I need it most. Bumps while braking trigger it everytime. I do not drive agressively, but like others here can attest you will get the "LOW TRACTION" warning a lot.

KK said that it engaged and stalled his car when he was pulling off some grass. That is how hard it engages.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by RobL Talk about shooting the messenger. REREAD WHAT I WROTE!!! I said that it ENGAGES at 80% of max. cornering. Stabilitrack then DROPS THE POWER TO ZERO - ZILCH - NADA - NOTHING - NIET. So all your power calculations about how much power the GXP should have coming out of the apex are WRONG. And THEN IT STILL APPLIES THE BRAKES. How the hell do YOU know when it engages? I can tell you with 100% certainty that it does engage BEFORE you get yourself into trouble. If max skidpad is .86, the accelerometer in the car could start cutting power as soon as it senses .75 - long before the tires have broken free. Now, I do get it a lot on the road. It annoys the hell out of me because it engages too soon and CUTS THE POWER TO NOTHING. So as I'm making my left hand turn into traffic and need to accelerate the computer sees "turn" and "hard acceleration" and then drops the power when I need it most. Bumps while braking trigger it everytime. I do not drive agressively, but like others here can attest you will get the "LOW TRACTION" warning a lot. KK said that it engaged and stalled his car when he was pulling off some grass. That is how hard it engages.

Well, I have to acknowlege you are right that I don't know when it engages. I was guessingand I certainly shouldn't guess. So I've learned from your post. My apologies. I shouldn't guess. My bad. So you are saying Stabilitrak sucks compared to other systems like BMWs and ruins handling. OK. If it does, it does. I didn't realize that just having it on ruined day to day handling. It is advertized as being for emergency maneuvers, wet pavement. It sounds like the programming and tuning of GM's Stabilitrak is very bad. I hope they get it right next time...

I just want to be sure we are talking the same thing. What you are describing seems to be traction control, not stability control. I was under the impression you could disable the traction control and still leave the stability control on, which should cure the braking on launch you are talking about, but keep the car from crashing when you start losing it in a turn.

Are you talking about stability control or about traction control? Can't you turn traction control off???

Jimbo

[VTXSTi]

Originally Posted by RobL Talk about shooting the messenger. REREAD WHAT I WROTE!!! I said that it ENGAGES at 80% of max. cornering. Stabilitrack then DROPS THE POWER TO ZERO - ZILCH - NADA - NOTHING - NIET. So all your power calculations about how much power the GXP should have coming out of the apex are WRONG. And THEN IT STILL APPLIES THE BRAKES. How the hell do YOU know when it engages? I can tell you with 100% certainty that it does engage BEFORE you get yourself into trouble. If max skidpad is .86, the accelerometer in the car could start cutting power as soon as it senses .75 - long before the tires have broken free. It is there for John Q. Yahoo who thinks that he is one of the Schumacher brothers. It is intentionally set low for the yahoos. This is why they have a button that can change it into any one of 4(!) different engagement points and type of engagement. Yes - there are 4 settings for Stabilitrac. Now, I do get it a lot on the road. It annoys the hell out of me because it engages too soon and CUTS THE POWER TO NOTHING. So as I'm making my left hand turn into traffic and need to accelerate the computer sees "turn" and "hard acceleration" and then drops the power when I need it most. Bumps while braking trigger it everytime. I do not drive agressively, but like others here can attest you will get the "LOW TRACTION" warning a lot. KK said that it engaged and stalled his car when he was pulling off some grass. That is how hard it engages.

RobL, I keep the ESC on all the time. I do not drive the car at its limits but I also do not baby it. I have accelerated hard out of apexes several times, enough to kick the rear out a few degrees and I have never seen the ESC/TCS light activate or felt the system apply the brakes. The only time I felt the ESC/TCS come on is in wet conditions and it was not as intrusive as I have felt on other cars with just a TCS. If you are not driving aggressively and the ESC/TCS is activating you need to have the system checked. You may have an overly sensitive component, if it is dropping power when you need it most thats dangers.

[JUSTICE]

If it only kicks in after you're completely in trouble, that's no good, it defeats the purpose so I hope Rob is right. My understanding is that it's designed to either stop disaster before it happens or nip it in the bud as soon as you begin to get into trouble or try to help you even if you've already screwed up pretty big. I think I'll keep both systems on until I get some experience driving the car pretty aggresively, then I'll experiment with leaving one or both off. In the rain, they're both going on no matter what though.

[mena661]

Of all the articles I have read, none ever mentioned cutting the system completely off.

None of the articles I read even mentioned Stabilitrak. I really wonder if they even turned it off.

[RobL]

Originally Posted by jimbo I just want to be sure we are talking the same thing. What you are describing seems to be traction control, not stability control. I was under the impression you could disable the traction control and still leave the stability control on, which should cure the braking on launch you are talking about, but keep the car from crashing when you start losing it in a turn. Are you talking about stability control or about traction control? Can't you turn traction control off???

I have been very careful with my words. I am talking about the ESC. It also comes up on the DIC when it engages. It's a different message than the TC which says "low traction."

I don't like to spin the tires, that calls attention from the police. I do like to take apexes/corners hard and accelerate out. You can get away with that more with less attention from "the man." It's that drive deep and accelerate out that sets it off especially if the road is bumpy.

[mena661]

In my driving, the Stabilitrak gives you some play time so to speak before it interferes. I've done some canyon runs with the tires screeching and never had it (ESC nor TC) kick in. I HAVE had it (TC) kick in when accelerating aggresively in a straightline.

[JUSTICE]

Originally Posted by mena661 None of the articles I read even mentioned Stabilitrak. I really wonder if they even turned it off.

I know at least one of them turns everything off as long as they're able to turn it off. It says so somewhere in the little fine print on the testing pages where all the cars they test are listed. But maybe some of them leave everything on.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by RobL I have been very careful with my words. I am talking about the ESC. It also comes up on the DIC when it engages. It's a different message than the TC which says "low traction." I don't like to spin the tires, that calls attention from the police. I do like to take apexes/corners hard and accelerate out. You can get away with that more with less attention from "the man." It's that drive deep and accelerate out that sets it off especially if the road is bumpy.

Rob,

I don't have any 1st hand experience with stability control or traction control. I am afraid my opinion on the subject have only muddied the waters. I'll leave it to you and others who own cars with them or have worked with these systems. Please disregard my uninformed opinions & apologies extended to the form for spouting off about a subject when I have no informed knowledge on the subject.

Trust me Rob, I do that far too often. I mean to help but often I only mess up the discussion. Sorry.