GXP FE3 Suspension not the FE3 from ZOK as advertise by GM

[RobL]

Originally Posted by JUSTICE No, I'll shut up, jimbo you keep talking. You're doing a better job explaining how I feel than I can.

I don't know where in Jersey you are but next weekend I'm going to be at Englishtown on Saturday for an autocross. (I might be in South Jersey on Sunday but I haven't made up my mind) If you wanted to participate, I can show you the ropes and you can learn a little bit about car control in a controled enviroment. I could give you a ride and you can see the difference that some of the simple things that I did to my car affect the handling.

[jimbo]

Hi RobL,

All you say sounds right and I have to agree with it, including LSD. I had LSD in my Mustang.

Is it possible that the Stabilitrak is tuned for high speeds on a road circuit and that tuning might actually hurt peformance on tight, technical parkling lot tracks where you never go faster than 60 mph? Maybe the GM engineers tuned Stabilitrak to help prevent accidents at 70, 80, 100 mph out on the freeways, and that tuning just happens to hurt the car's handling in Autocross.

The problem with making really fast cars is, the kind of people often attracted to them are not the kind who drive at the speed limit, but the kind who want to play race car driver on the street. It makes sense to me that GM engineers would have kept this in mind when designing and tuning their stability control, thinking, "how can we keep race car wannabes from crashing these cars on local highways". I don't think parking lots were the basis for tuning the stablity control on the GXP.

Which begs the question. I mean, if you can optimize stablity control for highways, why could't it be optimized for tight autocross circuits?

I saw a test drive on the speed channel of a BMW M6 with stability control. The BMW factory driver took the car up a steep hill with sweepers and switchbacks. Try as he might, he could not get the car's rear end to spin out.

Maybe the GXP does handle worse than the base car, in the hands of an expert like Mario Andretti or Jackie Stewart. Maybe the GXP handles better in the hands of mediocre drivers of normal skill, without years and years and years of RWD seat time in their lives, driving at or near the limit on freeways. By definition, half of us have to be worse than average drivers, even if our poll here on the Solstice Forum, 90% of the members said they were better than average drivers, with 40% saying they were MUCH better than average.

I think your point that stability control keeps the car withing a certain percentage of its limits is a valid one. I agree completely. 80% was your example, but what if stability control allows the car to go 99% of the car's limit? Then stability control should be faster. What about 90%. A driver at 90% all of the time is going to be faster than one who swings from 70% some of the time to 110% (spinout) some of the time, I would think.

Rob, take my words with a big grain of salt. My logic may be good or way off. At least you have some technical knowledge and I am just guessing here.

All of this is just bench racing anyway. I've said several times I need to just shut up and I hope I really do this time...

[JUSTICE]

Originally Posted by RobL I don't know where in Jersey you are but next weekend I'm going to be at Englishtown on Saturday for an autocross. (I might be in South Jersey on Sunday but I haven't made up my mind) If you wanted to participate, I can show you the ropes and you can learn a little bit about car control in a controled enviroment. I could give you a ride and you can see the difference that some of the simple things that I did to my car affect the handling.

I would love to. But I'm stuck in Michigan for another 3 weeks before I'm back in NJ. If anything comes up after that let me know, I'm all about learning more. Thanks for inviting.

[mena661]

Is it possible that the Stabilitrak is tuned for high speeds on a road circuit and that tuning might actually hurt peformance on tight, technical parkling lot tracks where you never go faster than 60 mph?

That's interesting and could be possible. Remember the spy photos of the GXP going around the Nurburgring?

[vermontster]

With the same driver,will a corvette zo6 out skidpad out brake out slalome out accellerate
a regular c6

same with audi a4 vs s4
same with bmw 3 sieries vs m3
porsche boxster vs boxster S
cadallac cts vs cts-V
mustang vs shelby

If the kick ass versions of all these stomp there regular mild manered versions,we should
expect the same with the gxp vs the run of the mill sol..


however I'm sure that not having my gxp sucks compared to having my gxp

[JUSTICE]

Originally Posted by vermontster With the same driver,will a corvette zo6 out skidpad out brake out slalome out accellerate a regular c6 same with audi a4 vs s4 same with bmw 3 sieries vs m3 porsche boxster vs boxster S cadallac cts vs cts-V mustang vs shelby If the kick ass versions of all these stomp there regular mild manered versions,we should expect the same with the gxp vs the run of the mill sol.. however I'm sure that not having my gxp sucks compared to having my gxp

I was thinking the same thing earlier.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by vermontster If the kick ass versions of all these stomp there regular mild manered versions,we should expect the same with the gxp vs the run of the mill sol.

It does. A 177HP base Solstice is not going to come close to the lap time a 260HP GXP on any race track or road circuit in America. The GXP will go faster and get there quicker on any straight section. We are discussing if it can achieve the same good handling through the curves that the Solstice can achieve.

FWIW, nobody here has established that the GXP does not handle as well as the Solstice. With the amount of power the GXP has available combined with stability control, I would expect that the ability of the GXP to power out of turns beyond the corner's apex is much better than the base car's. So if we accept that the GXP has inferior handling feel to the base car, then what all of this discussion comes down to is, does the base car have better turn-in and better roadholding up to the apex than the GXP does?

But to answer your specific questions...

The GXP will not outbrake a base car because it weighs more but has the same brakes.

The GXP will not pull more gs on a skidpad becuase the car weights more but the tires and suspension are the same or similar to the base cars. Stability control keeps you from spinning the car but it can't raise skidpad gs from what the tires can handle. I originally thought the GS2s would have more grip but they apparently don't.

Faster thorugh the slalom. Yes.

Faster accelerating. Yes.

Faster around a road course. Yes.

Now if the thought that the GXP is not better than the base car in every category bothers any of you, then you must have wanted the GXP that costs $7500 over the base car. Please don't forget that a GXP is only about $2,000 more than a similarly optioned base car. What did you expect for $2,000 dollars. I would have been happy just with the extra 83 HP/94 TQ increase alone without Stabilitrak.

GM could easily best the base car in every way. Would you guys like a $34,000 base price to match Honda's S2000? I don't.

[vermontster]

Did you miss the part where I said out skid pad
Did you miss the part where I said out slalome

[RobL]

Originally Posted by jimbo With the amount of power the GXP has available combined with stability control, I would expect that the ability of the GXP to power out of turns beyond the corner's apex is much better than the base car's.

I fixed that for you. As I said a couple of times now, stability control inhibits the cars use of power while turning at or near the limit. If one were to leave stability control on, I would imagine that the Solstice would out-accelerate the GXP for the first hundred feet or so after the apex.

[vermontster]

I think there were a couple of magazines that claimed the gxp had worse skidpad and slalome numbers,not that I put a lot of stock in what the mags say what with politics and ad revenue clouding things up.

wonder what the upmarket percent were on the other cars from mild to wild

$$$ per asskicking ratio Hows that for tech speak?

[JUSTICE]

Originally Posted by vermontster I think there were a couple of magazines that claimed the gxp had worse skidpad and slalome numbers,not that I put a lot of stock in what the mags say what with politics and ad revenue clouding things up. wonder what the upmarket percent were on the other cars from mild to wild $$$ per asskicking ratio Hows that for tech speak?

In fact, from what I can recall, ALL of the mags I read that tested both cars, have lower skidpad numbers for the GXP. For slalom I think the numbers varied. On some they were exactly the same for both cars, but I think I saw some where the slalom was off just a bit higher or lower. Of course we don't always agree with the magazines. But we either have objective evidence of subjective evidence to go by. The available objective information in this case seems to be compatible with the subjective opinions of many. We need more types of objective info on the handling and more experienced people to take both cars to a track and give opinions.

[Daywalker]

I have to agree with RobL on the Stabilitrac assessment. I also have had a chance to run back to back with the different modes. The all off mode, by far, allows the car to be pushed to its limits. This has been verified by me in a timed event and the difference is significant. As far as the magazines go, I have wondered myself if they knew they could completely defeat the traction control and ESC. Of all the articles I have read, none ever mentioned cutting the system completely off. In fact, many owners do not realize they can do this. I am not saying the car is better or worse than a Z0K, but I am saying that if you dont cut off the nanny system completely, you are not getting the full potential of the car in a performance enviroment.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by vermontster Did you miss the part where I said out skid pad Did you miss the part where I said out slalome

No, I didn't miss those questions and I answered them as shown below...

Originally Posted by jimbo The GXP will not pull more gs on a skidpad becuase the car weights more but the tires and suspension are the same or similar to the base cars. Stability control keeps you from spinning the car but it can't raise skidpad gs from what the tires can handle. I originally thought the GS2s would have more grip but they apparently don't. Faster thorugh the slalom. Yes.

Other than that, screw it. I can't find the stinking data and all my magazines are packed in a box somewhere. I can find data for one or other. Here is what I found.

Skidpad

................................Solstice.......... Solstice GXP

Motor Trend................ 0.90g ................. 0.89g
Car and Driver............ 0.88g ................. 0.85g
Road & Track.............. 0.88g ................. 0.86
Edmunds................ none found .............. 0.88g
Autoweek..............................nothing found
Motorweek ............................nothing found
.

Skidpad

................................Solstice.......... Solstice GXP

Motor Trend................ 66.1 ......... nothing found
Car and Driver..............................nothing found
Road & Track.............. 67.0 ............... 67.0
Edmunds.................... 64.0 ................ 65.2
Autoweek....................66.2 ......... nothing found
Motorweek .......................nothing found

Data in red is unconfirmed. I could not find it.

Since my magazines are packed and I cant find diddly crap beyond the tiny bit posted above, that is all we have unless you can find more.

For skidpad, we only have 2 sources that directly compared roadholding.

Motortrend put them in a dead heat 0.90 to 0.89.
Car and driver showed the GXP substantially off 0.88 to 0.85.

That tiny sample is pretty meaningless.

Edmunds was the only place I could find slalom numbers for both cars and they showed +1.2 mph faster for the GXP. A very meaningless sample of 1.

Therefore, I postulate we don't know jack about the objective, quantifiable handling numbers related to these 2 cars and anybody who says they do better be able to defend it with numbers becuase I cant find jack from one source to another to compare the 2 cars. Without quantified numbers from 5 to 10 sources who tested both skidpad and slalom for a direct comparison between the Sol and the Sol GXP, our entire discussion doesn't mean jack. Everybody who is saying the GXP should this or that doesn't have any numbers to back up the assertion it doesn't cause I sure hell couldn't find them!

Screw it.

[vermontster]

What did you expect for $2,000 dollars?
Well... doing some things better , but not doing anything worse!

[JUSTICE]

I remember for certain that Road and Track had the same slalom of 67.0 for both cars and I think their skidpad number for the GXP was 0.86 if I recall. So that fills in two gaps for you jimbo.