I met Tom Aquilante, of Phoenix Racing, over the weekend. I'd actually met him briefly a year ago at this time, but was a bit intoxicated and didn't speak with him too much.
For those that aren't aware, Phoenix races, or customer preps, road race cars out of Vettes, Solstices, CobaltSSs, STIs, Vipers, and Camaro/Firebirds.
This time around, he gave me a tour of the shop and fired up their engine dyno. It had a LS block on it at the time.
Several F body cars on the lifts and a red Solstice. Basically all Showroom Stock cars were being worked on.
I spent most of the time asking about suspension/chassis tuning and probing his mind.
Also asked a few questions regarding the Solstices, his comments were along the lines of:
-Get the Z0K package and leave the suspension alone, and that even that package is great for their use on race slicks
-Spring rates - the ZOK package is rear spring biased - he commented how unorthodox this setup was, and how much it shocked them that Pontiac would go this way, but that once dialed in it is fantastic
-I did see some of their spec sheets for the Solstice and datalogging. Because it is their information, I will not say anymore except that their alignment settings is to use more negative camber in the front than in the rear - this also is a bit unorthodox (by my experience anyway) and that the settings were more conservative than one might think
-He couldn't recall the spring rates off the top of his head, but I have the capability to contact him, so if everyone is interested I'll drop him a line. And if not too busy maybe he can get us an answer.
If anyone ever gets a chance to meet him, a very good guy that is more than happy to share a wealth of information. And I'm always more than happy to keep asking questions.
Also, I may be meeting up with the team a few times here and there this year, but am not sure yet. If so, I'll come back and add more to this thread.
__________________ RX-8 driver just passing through...
Tom is a great guy. But it's his brother, Joe, that owns and runs the shop. I'm friends with them and they've helped me blow two cars up on thier dyno - well one car but two engines . Sometime soon, I have to get back over there and have them do an alignment on my Sol. More front camber than rear has been usual for all the cars that I've owned and autocrossed but then again they have all been RWD.
Tom is a great guy. But it's his brother, Joe, that owns and runs the shop. I'm friends with them and they've helped me blow two cars up on thier dyno - well one car but two engines . Sometime soon, I have to get back over there and have them do an alignment on my Sol. More front camber than rear has been usual for all the cars that I've owned and autocrossed but then again they have all been RWD.
Yeah, I was at Tom's garage next to his auto body shop. They both badge as Phoenix, as is my understanding, though.
Have always run more rear camber on my RX-7s...but I'll get a more accurate picture this summer when I take a pyrometer to the tires of my RX-8.
Mallard, I was going to get in touch with him about the upcoming season, anyway, so I'll inquire and see if we can't get an answer.
__________________ RX-8 driver just passing through...
Quite a few stock suspensions allow you dial in more negative camber in the rear than the front (the S2000 and RX8 for example). It's not uncommon for modified/race cars to run signifacantly more camber in the front (upwards of -3 to -4 deg) than in the rear.
I'm very curious to know how well NA Solstice settings will work on the GXP - I suspect that haveing more power may for us GXP owners to be a bit more agressive in our suspension settings.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, be a terrible warning!
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Current Stable:
1998 Toyota FJ62 "Bruce"
2006 VW Mk5 GTI DSG "Ingraine"
2007 Mean GXP, Team Zissou!
Quite a few stock suspensions allow you dial in more negative camber in the rear than the front (the S2000 and RX8 for example). It's not uncommon for modified/race cars to run signifacantly more camber in the front (upwards of -3 to -4 deg) than in the rear.
I'm very curious to know how well NA Solstice settings will work on the GXP - I suspect that haveing more power may for us GXP owners to be a bit more agressive in our suspension settings.
Of course, the other thing about alignment settings are driver preference to understeer or oversteer. My car right now is -1.4 front and -1.9 rear. The factory alignment was 0 front and -1.5 rear. If anything, I tried to reduce understeer but am probably still a bit biased towards it. Won't know until I dial it in this summer...
Well...maybe with the GXP you'll be going faster so have more opportunity for higher speeds in the corners - so more force on the contact patch. But a ZOK equipped NA or GXP will still not be floored (as any other car) until after reaching the apex of the turn. If you're going WOT through any turn, your entry speed was way too slow. Based on that, I'd think the alignment specs would be very similar. Just kind of thinking out loud here...
__________________ RX-8 driver just passing through...
Last edited by Red Devil : 01-04-2007 at 10:07 AM.
I guess I was thinking less of corner entry speeds, which I agree will be similar, but more what happens once we dail in the power after mid corner - does the GXP's great speed potential enable it to have more grunt out of the corners? Also what's the camber curve of the Solstice's like? I know the Honda's had a very flexible suspension which meant you had to dial in max rear negative camber to keep the thing planted.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, be a terrible warning!
---------------------------------------------------
Current Stable:
1998 Toyota FJ62 "Bruce"
2006 VW Mk5 GTI DSG "Ingraine"
2007 Mean GXP, Team Zissou!
Well...maybe with the GXP you'll be going faster so have more opportunity for higher speeds in the corners - so more force on the contact patch. But a ZOK equipped NA or GXP will still not be floored (as any other car) until after reaching the apex of the turn. If you're going WOT through any turn, your entry speed was way too slow. Based on that, I'd think the alignment specs would be very similar. Just kind of thinking out loud here...
Nope, you have that right. Using the above example, the first half of the turn when there is no power being applied, the Z0K and the GXP should handle exactly the same given similar alignment. Same car, same weight, same suspension specs, and all that. If you have both cars set up for maximum turning (skidpad), the alignment specs will be the same. If, on the otherhand, you decide that exit acceleration is more important - then I would have less rear camber at the expense of overall handling and oversteer characteristics. But you can also add a FSB but you will lose more skidpad Gs but may gain it back in transitional Gs (slaloms). Suspension tuning is an art, not a science and always involves compromises.
Personally, I align my cars to have maximum skidpad numbers. That way, I have the most speed on corner exit that I can.
You and I can disagree on where you should be able to put the power down and go to WOT. I typically late apex my autocross turns and I'm always on the power before the apex. I'm also at WOT long before my wheels are straight. But I'm a throw and catch kind of driver.
My throttle input on the track is gradually increasing as I reach the apex, and at apex goes WOT - this is also before I've hit the completely straight line. But at this point, if I haven't royally f'd up the turn then the steering wheel should unwind itself without my help.
Sounds somewhat similar to yours...but yeah, you and I and everyone under the sun can argue preferences and alignments all day and no one can ever be completely correct. And I'll never claim I'm a better driver or know a better way than anyone else.
__________________ RX-8 driver just passing through...
but more what happens once we dail in the power after mid corner - does the GXP's great speed potential enable it to have more grunt out of the corners? Also what's the camber curve of the Solstice's like?
Double A arm suspension, our camber curves are very nice.
Yes, the torque of the GXP allows it more grunt out of the corner. The turbo lag means that we have to be on the gas harder earlier especially on an autocross course. We could get into a friction circle discussion...
Double A arm suspension, our camber curves are very nice.
That's the thing, don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for STIs and EVos, etc... - but I can't get those guys to recognize that their front strut suspension ultimately inhibits the capabilities of the car. But for 98% of us (at the moment, I'd put myself in that 98%, but would like to progress past that), they are so capable and adequate that most will never know.
It was that realization and some technical articles that I'd read that made me stick with my RX-8 a few months back and not trade it for an STi.
__________________ RX-8 driver just passing through...
Well the S2000 had double wishbones too, and had some very funky rear camber curves... (which had more to do with the smallness of the components and their overall geometry than anything else). From my albeit limited experience in the GXP it does not have the scary feeling the S2000 always did.
As for driving style, I also try to fall into the late apex camp - I think that the GXP will be able to be "tossed" pretty significantly and that it will be a forgiving car. One thing I can already tell is that it has way more mid-turn grip than my S2000 ever did. Turn-in might be slightly slower, but I think that can be overcome with alignment.
Again, once I get race tires on it and a set of DAs (i think) I'll have a much better idea about the car.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, be a terrible warning!
---------------------------------------------------
Current Stable:
1998 Toyota FJ62 "Bruce"
2006 VW Mk5 GTI DSG "Ingraine"
2007 Mean GXP, Team Zissou!
That's the thing, don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for STIs and EVos, etc... - but I can't get those guys to recognize that their front strut suspension ultimately inhibits the capabilities of the car. But for 98% of us (at the moment, I'd put myself in that 98%, but would like to progress past that), they are so capable and adequate that most will never know.
It was that realization and some technical articles that I'd read that made me stick with my RX-8 a few months back and not trade it for an STi.
Well by that philosophy Porsche's and BMW's are inhibited as well. Cars with front struts can handle well but, if all are anything like my Mazda, you end up with a really stiff front suspension. Still, Porsche's and BMW's seem o do pretty well stock.
I do prefer the double wishbone over struts, but for the reasonthat cars equipped with struts aren't capable.
their alignment settings is to use more negative camber in the front than in the rear - this also is a bit unorthodox (by my experience anyway) and that the settings were more conservative than one might think
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't let that get around.
Alignment is an art, and it's also driver dependent. I just did the alignment on the GXP and had it at a practice late last month. After trading the lead in the Astock group with an S2K for most of the day, we traded cars for a lap. I have no idea how he drives that thing. My times fell by 3 seconds in his car, he only lost about 0.5 in mine. We were both shocked, but I was the one walking away with the smile. Even without, but certainly with, a good alignment this car is way easy to drive. You can see in the still pictures they take at the events that this car is almost dead flat in the corners. Stock suspension. And you can come screaming out of corners. After over $4000 in suspension work, I still got my M3 up on 2 wheels
I'd develop slowly with this car. You might find some changes are just unnecessary.
Which tires are you running? My co-driver and I are currently looking at tires and we feel the 285 hoosier is the way to go (even if the CS winner was on the 245 Khumo). <
. Sometime soon, I have to get back over there and have them do an alignment on my Sol. More front camber than rear has been usual for all the cars that I've owned and autocrossed but then again they have all been RWD.
