All-Season vs Winter Tires - video

[trev0006]

All-Season vs Winter Tires the difference is amazing.

[LiquidPT]

Also, this one is long (20 min) but worth the watch. It's from CBC's Marketplace

CBC.ca - Marketplace - Get a Grip

[GS Stage 1]

And that would be why I run winter tires/rims on my Sky. Just changed out for the season last week.

[Craig Lewis]

I have mixed feeling about the general use of winter tires.

I believe that really grippy winter tires give a false confidence to those who use them. If you recodnise that you have more grip, you end up taking that grip for granted. This encourages higher speeds, and less caution. Ever notice that most of the vehicles in the ditch in rural areas after a snow storm, are actually 4WD. If you are pulling out of your driveway and your car slides sideways, you'll use more caution in your journey. Lets be honest. All the safety devices in the world are useless without common sense.

The problem with driving a Solstice in adverse conditions is that the tires are too wide, with respect to it's weight, to cut through the water, slush or snow in order to grip the pavement. Sure we can counter this with deep tread, but all tires wear out. So you get half a tires life with decent traction.

I have a top quality set of winters. I sized them at 225 to try to balance snow covered traction with dry road tractability. While they are great on slow and water, my stock summer tires still outperformed them in the dry but fridgid(-15C) conditions. The extra soft winter compound didn't really help too much. They just got chewed up in relatively mild conditions where an all season would have shined.

A province near me mandated winter tires recentrly. While I have yet to see statistics from that province since the new law, I do know that the neighbouring city had it's worst winter accident rate in years. A curious situatiuon because a significant number of poeople from that province work in that neighbourign city. I challenge that the winter tire law has allowed the unskilled driver to manage out of his neighbourhood, wheras before he got stuck down the road and went home for hot chocolate in stead of a trip to the mall in adverse conditions.

Since a Solstice is too low to drive in really big snowfall, we might consider that light snow and slushy conditions will be the worst the car will see. In that case, a full on snow isn't really relevant. I would get a narrower set of all seasons and try to figure out a way to lessen the sway bars effectiveness to allow for better wieght transfer. I regret my winter tire purchase.

[LiquidPT]

Originally Posted by Craig Lewis I believe that really grippy winter tires give a false confidence to those who use them. If you recodnise that you have more grip, you end up taking that grip for granted. This encourages higher speeds, and less caution. Ever notice that most of the vehicles in the ditch in rural areas after a snow storm, are actually 4WD. If you are pulling out of your driveway and your car slides sideways, you'll use more caution in your journey. Lets be honest. All the safety devices in the world are useless without common sense.

Big difference... 4WD helps you get going easier, but doesn't do a whole lot for steering and NOTHING for braking... it really is false confidence

Snow tires will give better grip in ALL situations. Now, I'm not saying you should just barrel around, but snow tires are much safer all around than just thinking "Oh, I have 4WD"

[NormSky]

My thoughts precisely on 4wd vs two wheel and snow tires. I can accelerate past any 4wd truck after 40 mph with rear wheel drive with performance snow tires like my Pilot Alpins. Add to that better braking and turning control with snows and it's a no brainer.

My dad could not creep up the hill in his garage with us Silverado in 2wd like I could with my Corvette with snow tires.



Norm

Originally Posted by LiquidPT Big difference... 4WD helps you get going easier, but doesn't do a whole lot for steering and NOTHING for braking... it really is false confidence Snow tires will give better grip in ALL situations. Now, I'm not saying you should just barrel around, but snow tires are much safer all around than just thinking "Oh, I have 4WD"

[Ausserdog]

Got to agree with LiquidPT and Norm. Snow tires give significantly better traction in winter driving than regular, or all season tires do - period. You can exceed the capability of any tire in the right conditions, it's just how much lattitude you have before you get there.

I'd much rather be driving using only 50% of my tire's capability while keeping up with traffic than being at 80, 90 or even 100%. That's what will get you into accidents - when the steady state conditions change and you try to exceed the boundries. So, yes you can exceed the grip of the snow tire, but you'll have to try a whole lot harder than most others around you. With the traffic around here, that's not terribly likely. Now when they do something dumb, I've got enough reserve grip to stop or avoid them without losing control. THAT is why I have snow tires.

A couple of years ago we had a 12" snowfall, and I drove my rwd MGB with snow tires to work. Almost no one else showed up, particularly those with 4wd. Since they have 4wd, they never got decent tires and couldn't make it down the road.

The MG with its airdam is as low as the Sol. It just kind of plowed its way through. After that, never got anymore kidding about when I would get a "real" car for the winter drive.

[Craig Lewis]

My intercooler would be toast if I drove through 12 inches of snow. Even in lesser storms, the ice that falls from wheelswells woudl destroy the front of the car. Even though I have winters, it's simply cost effective to avoid the big stuff.

I have had 2 sets of winter tires in my life. Most of my driving was where we had significant snowfall every two or three days. Truely snowmobile country. I had nothing but all seasons. Mostly worn I might add. I got stuck on the street once in my life. Only because the car bottomed out.

I'm not sure I understand the willingness to maximize snow covered traction at the expence of dry road traction. My winter tires, the best Pirelli makes, cannot keep up to my strickly summer tires, even in subzero temperatures. Maybe they would have a better chance if they were as wide, but then the snow and sleek stability would be compromized significantly.

Where I live now, we typically see 0c in the middle of winter. At those temps, my winter tires get eaten alive.

[Ausserdog]

I'm not sure I understand the willingness to maximize snow covered traction at the expence of dry road traction.

Summer driving will typically use a much lower percentage of available traction than during snowy conditions. It's all about maintaining control. I know that my winter tires don't grip as well in the dry as my summer ones, so they don't get pushed as hard in dry weather.

Where I live now, we typically see 0c in the middle of winter. At those temps, my winter tires get eaten alive.

Personally, I haven't run into that problem. Several years ago, for financial reasons, we were forced to run winter tires year round on our truck. They had a couple of winters on them already and lasted an additional 4 years of year round driving before they needed to be replaced. During that time temps ranged from -20ºF to 100ºF.

[Craig Lewis]

Milleage would be the significant statistic. Many people go through all seasons in less than 4 years. I don't think it can be disputed that soft rubber wears faster.

I don't think it's been mentioned that winter tires are loud.

I suppose the winter tire decision needs to be addressed in a similar fashion to performance mods. With performance, power under the curve is the goal. Peak numbers are great for selling product and bragging rights.

The same goes for tire choices. An appropriate tire choice depends on how much time the roads are covered. If it only snows three times a month, chosing a tire with snow traction as a priority seems counter productive. The majority of the time the tires are out of thier best ellement.

I suppose a mathemtician would graph relative traction vs time for each different tire for your specific waether conditions. The largest area under the curve would give you the best tire choice for overal safety for the time described.

My tire position stands for summer tires aswell. Other than the drag strip, I have commonly questioned ones need to buy the ultimate grip. What's the fun in that? A real driver enjoys car control. You grow accustomed to the relative speed anyway, so why not compromise ultimate grip for a little sideways play. My best driving fun happens when it snows. That way I can practice my skills at a moderate speed.

I propose that the majority of drivers would be far better served with a slightly narrower all season tire, for winter use. If it snows in a big way, you'll be stuck in traffic anyway. If traffic opens up, you should keep the speed down nonetheless.

I suppose I am trying to caution that making a choice based upon the extreme compromises the ability to make a rational decision.

[NormSky]

You can practice your adhesion limits with snow tires too. Though I'll add my Alpins have more straight grip than a 3.5 year old set of RSAs in 2nd gear in the rain.

Unless you live in the flat lands, all season will not get you very far when you find hills.

Think of snow tires insurance, your planning for an event you hope you'll never encounter. I only needed snow tires once last year or else I'd have to drive so slow on all seasons with rear wheel drive to cause traffic disruptions. Snows are on from November through March as early as late October we can get lake effect snow sometimes around 6-8 inches. But usually don't need them again until late February early March. Sometimes during holidays too. I don't want to be stuck in the slow lane doing 20 below speed limit when everyone else is racing by just because I don't have the stopping distance they do.


Norm

[Craig Lewis]

Originally Posted by NormSky You can practice your adhesion limits with snow tires too. Though I'll add my Alpins have more straight grip than a 3.5 year old set of RSAs in 2nd gear in the rain. Unless you live in the flat lands, all season will not get you very far when you find hills. Think of snow tires insurance, your planning for an event you hope you'll never encounter. I only needed snow tires once last year or else I'd have to drive so slow on all seasons with rear wheel drive to cause traffic disruptions. Snows are on from November through March as early as late October we can get lake effect snow sometimes around 6-8 inches. But usually don't need them again until late February early March. Sometimes during holidays too. I don't want to be stuck in the slow lane doing 20 below speed limit when everyone else is racing by just because I don't have the stopping distance they do. Norm

You can use the same logic regarding stopping power in dry conditions of which is most all of the time in most areas in North America. If it snows 8 inches, maybe the general rule should be that we stay off the roads, at least those of us in sports cars, at least until the plows clear the roads. IN any case, having to drive slow every so often isn't such a big deal.

I have driven many winters on worn and dried out RSAs. Contrary to popular opinion, I consider them a decent tire. Since they are typically spec'd on "performance" versions of various vehicles, they are spec'd a little wider, which compromised thier ability to cut through. Thus exagerating thier poor perfomance in popular opinion. I have driven a RSA equiped Kappa in -28 on standing frozen slush. While it's certainly far from ideal, I was fine even with spirit. I suspect the same tire, spec'd to 225 on a 3000lb car would be confidence inspiring.

I'll gladly trade my almost new 16" steelies with winter pirelli's for stock wheels and RSA's. I got tired of dodging ice boulders(the solid kind that fall off wheel wells) for fear of destroying my intercooler. I believe the RSA's would be enough tire for me. Just enough to get me home with an unexpected downwall. Approriate for the ocasional extreme, yet above average for dry grip for nice day fun. I suppose thier best quality being thier moderately stiff sidewall(comfort) and thier inherant predictability. RSA's would be fine by me in winter, even if I have to leave early to avoid a serious snowfall. Otherwise, I'll stay put or go play in the truck.

In retrospect, a 17 inch wheel with 225 perfomance all seasons would suit my needs for winter. Adjustable sway bars would make the world of difference for a perfect winter Solstice. Especially since the bushings get so still in the cold.

I justy want to say that I do appreciate other points of view. I just occasionally like to blow out some hot air

[Craig Lewis]

Originally Posted by NormSky You can practice your adhesion limits with snow tires too. Though I'll add my Alpins have more straight grip than a 3.5 year old set of RSAs in 2nd gear in the rain. Unless you live in the flat lands, all season will not get you very far when you find hills. Think of snow tires insurance, your planning for an event you hope you'll never encounter. I only needed snow tires once last year or else I'd have to drive so slow on all seasons with rear wheel drive to cause traffic disruptions. Snows are on from November through March as early as late October we can get lake effect snow sometimes around 6-8 inches. But usually don't need them again until late February early March. Sometimes during holidays too. I don't want to be stuck in the slow lane doing 20 below speed limit when everyone else is racing by just because I don't have the stopping distance they do. Norm

You can use the same logic regarding stopping power in dry conditions of which is most all of the time in most areas in North America. If it snows 8 inches, maybe the general rule should be that we stay off the roads, at least those of us in sports cars, at least until the plows clear the roads. IN any case, having to drive slow every so often isn't such a big deal.

I have driven many winters on worn and dried out RSAs. Contrary to popular opinion, I consider them a decent tire. Since they are typically spec'd on "performance" versions of various vehicles, they are spec'd a little wider, which compromised thier ability to cut through. Thus exagerating thier poor perfomance in popular opinion. I have driven a RSA equiped Kappa in -28 on standing frozen slush. While it's certainly far from ideal, I was fine even with spirit. I suspect the same tire, spec'd to 225 on a 3000lb car would be confidence inspiring.

I'll gladly trade my almost new 16" steelies with winter pirelli's for stock wheels and RSA's. I got tired of dodging ice boulders(the solid kind that fall off wheel wells) for fear of destroying my intercooler. I believe the RSA's would be enough tire for me. Just enough to get me home with an unexpected downwall. Approriate for the ocasional extreme, yet above average for dry grip for nice day fun. I suppose thier best quality being thier moderately stiff sidewall(comfort) and thier inherant predictability. RSA's would be fine by me in winter, even if I have to leave early to avoid a serious snowfall. Otherwise, I'll stay put or go play in the truck.

In retrospect, a 17 inch wheel with 225 perfomance all seasons would suit my needs for winter. Adjustable sway bars would make the world of difference for a perfect winter Solstice. Especially since the bushings get so still in the cold.

I justy want to say that I do appreciate other points of view. I just occasionally like to blow out some hot air

[NormSky]

Just about all performance tires perform well when new.

Sounds like some Obummer's stimulus money made it up your way as not all of us have the option just to not drive. What about ice? The more sipes, the better!

Norm

[Ausserdog]

No argument that softer compound tires wear faster, but the winter tires we drove on year round for 4 years probably covered a total of 50K miles before requiring replacement. Not excellent life to be sure, but not horrible either. As stated previously this was a decision forced on us, not one we willingly made.

As for noise, they are a *little* louder, but not much. Then again like anything, not all are created equal. We've been very happy with the Bridgestones we have.

Since this is my only daily driver, there is no other vehicle to fall back on, or choose for nasty weather. This one has to do it all. So I'll stick with snow tires during our winter months. As Norm said, it's insurance. I need to get where I'm going and need to be safe. If my desire is to drive more spiritedly in nicer winter weather it will have to be tempered a bit. Such is the effects of wants vs. needs!