Wobble nuts! Anybody using them? - Pontiac Solstice Forum
 3Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
stungjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: South-O-Dallas
Posts: 51
Wobble nuts! Anybody using them?

Wobble nuts AKA PCD variation nuts......
I have a line on a good looking wheel/tire package but the bolt pattern is 112mm and using some centric hub adapters as well. The wheels are HUGE! 18x9.5 using 275/40X18 tires with a 53 offset. he showed me some pics of his Solstice and the tires did not poke out from the fender. I'm just concerned about the use of those wobble nuts. Any stories good or bad??

Joe

FLASHED

2008 Red Line Carbon Flash SE Naked!
stungjoe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 11:33 AM
Member
 
cartmann32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,099
Send a message via MSN to cartmann32
Just reading the word 'wobble' makes me shiver

I took my hubs/disks down to a machine shop and they widened my bolt pattern to the correct size....I went 5x114.3

This is the correct and safest way I believe

(running 19x9.5 front and 19x11 rear)

Trax Customs
www.traxcustoms.com
cartmann32 is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 12:30 PM
AKA SolWhat?
 
DaveOC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Running Wisconsin
Posts: 8,692
Garage
If.you are just going to do a static display at a car show, wobble nuts are OK.

If you are planning to drive the car, relying on the car to deliver you safely to your destination, no way would I use wobble nuts.

Read cartmann's comments above, i agree with him!



.



On the Hanging Limb Highway - 2012
1st 1K - #741
DaveOC is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 12:53 PM
Member
 
vcliment89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 123
Garage




Sources:
Wheel Separation Accidents - Metallurgy Expert, Mark Bailey, PE
http://www.croberts.com/Automotive-wheel-detachment.htm

If I'm understanding things correctly, here is my synopsis of what these and other articles have said.

Although very informative, I am still not totally sure of my answer yet in regard to wobble nuts/wobble bolts, but feel that I have a better idea now. It seems that the main determining factor for the dangerous situation that people seem to talk about but never specify, is a lack of clamping force to sandwich the rim to the (spacer)/brake and the hub that the wheel studs are attached to. Based on these articles, it's more clear to me how the friction from the sandwiched wheel/(spacer)/brake/hub components are what take the force of accelerating, braking, etc. rather than the lug bolts or lug nuts. This makes sense as the threads on the lug bolts or studs after hard driving would be marred and mangled, but after hard driving they remain in good shape. The lug bolts/nuts only job is to create enough clamping force in a horizontal direction (or the same direction they are screwed in) with the proper factory specified torque they were engineered to work at, in order to clamp the wheel/(spacer)/brake/hub together. I would also assume that they take some of the force when turning as well, but it seems this is less of the issue compared to just coming loose going in a straight line due to improper torquing or failed/compromised lug nuts/bolts/studs.

Based on the articles, it seems the most common times that wheel separation from a car happens due to:

Improper torquing of lug nuts or lug bolts
-Over tightening stretches/stresses the bolts or studs which can cause failure
-Under tightening means there isn't enough friction between the wheel/brake/hub or spacer if also used causing the weight of the car to sit more on the lug bolts or studs causing failure

Running aftermarket lug centric wheels or not using properly sized centering rings on a car designed to be hub centric causing the weight of the car to deform the rim stud/bolt holes which leads to loosening and failure
-MisterJJ, this seems to be more of what you are talking about, but not actually how things work

Surface changes between the wheel/(spacer)/brake/stud due to paint/coating deterioration, corrosion, or otherwise causing a loosening of lug nuts/bolts


These things reiterate the importance of running aftermarket parts that are designed to work in the same way your factory parts were designed to work if you desire to use aftermarket parts. Using hub centric wheels and spacers, and proper centering rings on our cars seems to be very important (of course). Also, ensuring a clean smooth surface between wheel/(spacer)/brake/hub, as well as properly torquing lug nuts/bolts and using high quality components should mean safe operation. Properly torquing wheels and then re-torquing wheels to their proper torque value after installation between 15 and 500 miles should mean that proper clamping force will be achieved and a wheel separation would be very unlikely at that point.
Steelmesh likes this.

'07 Solstice GXP (Angry Beast) / Black - 5 Speed - OnStar - Monsoon 6 Disk
- GSM/GPS Tracker System. BlackVue DR500GW-HD & rear view camera
- GMPP CAI, 3" SOLO Catless & Street Race, Fujita IC Piping, WOT Box
- Sprint Springs
- WERKSracing PS Reservoir Relocation Kit
- ZZP Fuel Injectors
- SS Brake Lines
- EBC RedStuff Pads & R1 Rotors
- Bosch 3 Bar Map Sensors
- DDMWorks Venom & Backbone Brace

Next
- OEM Bluetooth & USB
- Duraflex GT Concept Fenders
- WERKS Valve Springs
vcliment89 is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 12:57 PM
Member
 
vcliment89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 123
Garage
stungjoe I'm the guy selling them. That's part of the reading I did before buying them, as said I spent some time digging on this and yes a lot of people say how dangerous they are. I agree if you don't use them correctly they can be dangerous but the bolts on the wheels are only used to clamp the wheel to the hub, and not to hold the rotation of the wheel. That is why you MUST run the hub centric rings so the wheel does not move around and you torque the wheels to the correct spec.
stungjoe likes this.

'07 Solstice GXP (Angry Beast) / Black - 5 Speed - OnStar - Monsoon 6 Disk
- GSM/GPS Tracker System. BlackVue DR500GW-HD & rear view camera
- GMPP CAI, 3" SOLO Catless & Street Race, Fujita IC Piping, WOT Box
- Sprint Springs
- WERKSracing PS Reservoir Relocation Kit
- ZZP Fuel Injectors
- SS Brake Lines
- EBC RedStuff Pads & R1 Rotors
- Bosch 3 Bar Map Sensors
- DDMWorks Venom & Backbone Brace

Next
- OEM Bluetooth & USB
- Duraflex GT Concept Fenders
- WERKS Valve Springs
vcliment89 is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 01:18 PM
Member
 
Sting Ya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Columbia Station Ohio
Posts: 2,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveOC View Post
If.you are just going to do a static display at a car show, wobble nuts are OK.

If you are planning to drive the car, relying on the car to deliver you safely to your destination, no way would I use wobble nuts.

Read cartmann's comments above, i agree with him!



.
Sting Ya is online now  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 04:07 PM
Member
 
WintR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florissant, MO
Posts: 1,033
If the only forces were acceleration and braking, I don't see why they wouldn't be more than adequate. But, in Solo II, there is a considerable amount of lateral force applied to the wheels in hard cornering, so I'd be concerned that the floating threads inside the nut don't have the support that a properly fitted nut would have.

Deep, steel/sand, loaded except standard radio and no smoker's; #08974
Mods: Kappasphere CAI, Clear Image Shorty Header, second horn, visor decals, mudflaps, tonneau cover, brake light flasher, trailer hitch, 'lil Chromies, trunk monkey, retune, DDMWorks backbone, GMPP Suspension, wood grain dash, Solo Quiet cat-back exhaust, deleted:Solo high-flow cat
WintR is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
stungjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: South-O-Dallas
Posts: 51
I guess wobble nuts is a bit of a misnomer and they should actually be called lug nuts with wobble cones or seats. Where a regular nut has a tapered cone to center itself against the wheel's tapered lug hole seat the wobble nut's cone...wobbles allowing it to properly align the cone in the wheel's tapered seat while the stud is not directly centered in the hole. For an old school lug centric wheel (like my ol' Cragars back in the day...you may remember the extra long wheel nuts??) this would be a major no-no! But for today's hub centric wheels it may not be as bad as it sounds.

Here's pic of a wobble nut:





EDIT the pic i had was HUGE so i used the above instead. Original in link form to better illustrate.
http://www.serpentautosport.com/varinuts_edited-1.jpg

You can see how the seat is allowed to move while the nut is tightened

Joe

FLASHED

2008 Red Line Carbon Flash SE Naked!

Last edited by stungjoe; 01-30-2017 at 06:08 PM.
stungjoe is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 10:17 AM
Member
 
Tom White Coupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: metro Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 87
Garage
The nuts (or bolts) clamp the wheel to the hub and control lateral movement. The hub locates/centers the wheel. The studs should not be in shear, only tension to prevent motion by clamping the wheel to the hub. If you don't think so, just torque your rear lug nuts to about 10 ft lbs and make a pass at the drag strip. You might loose a wheel. Be sure to check your studs for cracks before you call me crazy. Wobble nuts with rings will be fine, just check the torque - frequently if you have concerns. Most aftermarket aluminum wheels don't use tapered nuts, just washers and nuts to clamp the wheel to the hub.
Tom White Coupe is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 04:42 PM
Member
 
WintR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florissant, MO
Posts: 1,033
I'd have to see one cut in half, or a dimensioned drawing, before accepting that they are as strong against the increased tension created by hard cornering.

Deep, steel/sand, loaded except standard radio and no smoker's; #08974
Mods: Kappasphere CAI, Clear Image Shorty Header, second horn, visor decals, mudflaps, tonneau cover, brake light flasher, trailer hitch, 'lil Chromies, trunk monkey, retune, DDMWorks backbone, GMPP Suspension, wood grain dash, Solo Quiet cat-back exhaust, deleted:Solo high-flow cat
WintR is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 01:44 PM
Member
 
Tom White Coupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: metro Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 87
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by WintR View Post
I'd have to see one cut in half, or a dimensioned drawing, before accepting that they are as strong against the increased tension created by hard cornering.
They are simply a tapered washer and regular nut that are encased so they will stay together when removed. They only allwo ~ 2mm of offset per nut.
Tom White Coupe is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 04:36 PM
Member
 
WintR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florissant, MO
Posts: 1,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom White Coupe View Post
They are simply a tapered washer and regular nut that are encased so they will stay together when removed. They only allwo ~ 2mm of offset per nut.
So, the internal nut floats against a washer that is held by the outer shell. Certainly less strong than a standard lug nut, since the outer shell is either welded or formed around the washer.

Deep, steel/sand, loaded except standard radio and no smoker's; #08974
Mods: Kappasphere CAI, Clear Image Shorty Header, second horn, visor decals, mudflaps, tonneau cover, brake light flasher, trailer hitch, 'lil Chromies, trunk monkey, retune, DDMWorks backbone, GMPP Suspension, wood grain dash, Solo Quiet cat-back exhaust, deleted:Solo high-flow cat
WintR is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
stungjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: South-O-Dallas
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by WintR View Post
So, the internal nut floats against a washer that is held by the outer shell. Certainly less strong than a standard lug nut, since the outer shell is either welded or formed around the washer.
It's more like the "cone" washer floats against the flange made on the nut. The nut threads directly onto the bolt of course while the "cone" washer is allowed to float to allow itself to seat in the tapered portion of the wheel's lug hole. If you click on the link in post #8 and look at the wobble nuts. The cone is positioned so that each nut shows the extremes to which the cone can float. The two outer nuts are a top view showing how the flanged section of the nut still covers all portions of the hole of the coned section. This, to me, illustrates how the cone section is never allowed to tilt in relation to the nut due to the hole in the cone being exposed; i.e. the cone is always held flat against the flange of the nut. The nuts just inside of those shows how the cone is allowed to float around the threaded portion of the nut. The middle nut shows how thick the head or top portion of the cone is.

Joe

FLASHED

2008 Red Line Carbon Flash SE Naked!

Last edited by stungjoe; 02-02-2017 at 06:47 AM.
stungjoe is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 04:09 PM
Member
 
WintR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florissant, MO
Posts: 1,033
Still, in the photos that show the extreme of motion, it can be seen that the nut has very little material holding it within the overall assembly, and it is clearly less strong than a standard lug nut. Probably more than adequate for 'normal' driving, but autocross is a different set of loads.

Deep, steel/sand, loaded except standard radio and no smoker's; #08974
Mods: Kappasphere CAI, Clear Image Shorty Header, second horn, visor decals, mudflaps, tonneau cover, brake light flasher, trailer hitch, 'lil Chromies, trunk monkey, retune, DDMWorks backbone, GMPP Suspension, wood grain dash, Solo Quiet cat-back exhaust, deleted:Solo high-flow cat
WintR is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 05:11 PM
Member
 
cartmann32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,099
Send a message via MSN to cartmann32
Here....do this.
should cost you anywhere from $200-$400

stungjoe likes this.

Trax Customs
www.traxcustoms.com
cartmann32 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Pontiac Solstice Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome