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Old 01-03-2013, 06:35 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I'm looking at page 10-72 HVAC manual volume 3 of 3 in a 2008 M-Car service manual. Upper left corner indicates B+ goes to HVAC relay 30 in the BCM. As stated earlier, relay 30 was the first thing replaced with no change in results. (I still have the original relay).

If I read the schematic correctly, the 4 position rotary switch actually determines where the ground is attached - through all resistors at low, 3 resistors at "2", 2 resistors at "3" and bypassing the resistor pack at "4" going straight through the blower high speed relay which is on the front of the blower motor itself..

Your logic follows mine in that it can't be the high speed relay, because that only comes into play at position "4" and I've nothing at any setting.

This is where I'm puzzled because at the top of the diagram it shows HVAC relay 30 with a "logic" grouping that leads me to believe if the "logic" isn't telling the relay to close, there ain't a damn thing gonna happen even if all switches, fuses, etc. all test positive beyond that.

Should I be able to check for 12 vdc across pins 85 and 86 with the ignition on? Shouldn't that indicate that the "logic" has sent the voltage necessary to trip that relay and thereby enable the rotary dial to close the circuit as needed?

I can try to post a PDF of my scan of the manual but it's kinda rough. (Should have bought the electronic version of the service manual and bought a cheap laptop to be able to review it in the garage, lol!)

Thanks again for the help soup!
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:49 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Oh, and for ****s and giggles I did pull fuses relavent to HVAC on the underhood fuse block and all tested good. I did not necessarily "push" or flex the board, but I did push and tweak all relays and fuses to make sure they were seated. While most did push in a very short distance still had no results. The blower has remained dead for two weeks or so now so at least I have a consistent troubleshooting environment.

Temperature related? I'm mixed. If it's semiconductor related my experience says cold = good and hot = failure. BUT, if it's stricly a solder connection on a PCB perhaps something swells with heat? (Last time it worked it started with "not working" then "working" after it had been driven and then re-started. Then "not working" after it sat during a lunch break. I do have a space heater in my attached garage, but it's not like the thing saturates the car to 80 degrees or anything when I'm working on it.

Fawk. Everything I think I eliminate seems to result in two more options to investigate.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:24 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by chickenwire View Post
If I read the schematic correctly, the 4 position rotary switch actually determines where the ground is attached - through all resistors at low, 3 resistors at "2", 2 resistors at "3" and bypassing the resistor pack at "4" going straight through the blower high speed relay which is on the front of the blower motor itself..

Your logic follows mine in that it can't be the high speed relay, because that only comes into play at position "4" and I've nothing at any setting.

This is where I'm puzzled because at the top of the diagram it shows HVAC relay 30 with a "logic" grouping that leads me to believe if the "logic" isn't telling the relay to close, there ain't a damn thing gonna happen even if all switches, fuses, etc. all test positive beyond that.

Should I be able to check for 12 vdc across pins 85 and 86 with the ignition on? Shouldn't that indicate that the "logic" has sent the voltage necessary to trip that relay and thereby enable the rotary dial to close the circuit as needed?
All your statements above are correct (AFAICT). If the fan's not working, are you getting 12V to the fan motor (brown wire)? If yes, that means that the #30 relay is working and thus you have a switch/ground problem.

If no, then plug/unplug the relay and see if you hear it click; or test 85-86 like you suggested, to see if the logic is turning it on. If THAT is working then start following/testing the 12V supply through the fuse in the engine fuse block, to the relay contact (30 and/or 87) and on to the fan.

Let me know...
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:05 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Finally got my dumb-axe back into this last night. Wanted to test to see if I had voltage going to relay #30 so I popped it out (this is under the passenger's side floor board) and tried to push some pieces of wire in to make contact so I could test with my little meter. Pieces of paperclip weren't thick enough to make contact so I put the relay back in.

As I was pushing the relay back in, I felt a small pulse of air hit my right ear from the dash vent and then it stopped! If a chip is done it's usually done so the "logic" shouldn't have sent the signal to the relay to close. If a chip is "close to being done" it usually acts up when it's warm, not cold. I call BS on the logic, has to be a contact problem.

I seat and re-seat the relay, I seat and reseat the fuses - NOTHING!

Tonight I dig deeper and start to pull the whole fuse panel. (It's not that bad - you need a screwdriver to pop the "levers" on the two connections and a 7mm socket to pull the main center connector. After that, there are 3 - 7mm screws holding the panel in place.)

I see nothing as I remove the fuse panel and connectors, so I drop the panel and there is a wire dress on the back - four "hook clips" popped with a screwdriver and then there is another 7mm screw in the back of the panel that holds the supply wiring onto it.

And here I find a little bit - o - brown on the main power supply to relay "30".



I also notice some hand lettering on the connector which is unusual (from my experience) on a normal production component. Methinks this may have been reworked at the plant or the dealer by the supplier.



So the position in play is a bit smoked. I was able to push and move the contact surface and clean it to the point that I now have a blower, but it's not a permanent solution. I show the following picture of what is called the "TPA" (terminal position assurance) lock that slides through the connector shell to hold the terminals in place. (They typically push and "snap" into place, but then the TPA is used to assure they can't be pushed out.) In my case, I removed the TPA but was unable to push the latch finger back and pull the female terminal out because, well basically it was melted to crap.



I know the "box" type female terminals are pretty standard - made by tyco and several other suppliers and I can get my hands on one of those. The connector "shell" is engraved with "Delphi" but I didn't see any specific part number on it. (It's likely deeper inside on a surface you can't see after the wires and terminals are inserted.)

If I can't get a number for the shell (and even if I do I may not be able to get one) I'm goinf to end up buying the whole damned harness because I guarantee you that GM won't just sell the shell. I can diagram the wires required and replace the smoked terminal but I see several hundred dollars in a wire harness and routing the whole damned thing as opposed to popping out a dozen or so terminals, rewiring one, and putting it back together.

Any help?
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:55 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Wow cool! At least you've found what seems to be the culprit.

First time I've seen anything like this on a Sol/Sky so can't be too much help. But if it were me, I just scrape hell out of that contact so the face is nice shiny metal, pry/bend it enough to make sure contact and put it back together. At least see if it fixes the issue and then see how long it lasts. If it does last (and I would think it stands a good chance) then no need to look for a new shell and contact.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:50 AM   #51 (permalink)
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That's precisely what I did soup - cleaned the terminal and tried to push it into position. It is making contact now but I fear that if I run the blower on high it's going to overheat again due to the marginal contact it's making. Can't really get it back into proper position - here's a section view I sketched.



I know the Helm manual has descriptions of various electrical connectors used in the car, I just haven't had a chance to search through it and see if it lists this particular one.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:53 AM   #52 (permalink)
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If I could get it out I could replace it. The problem is it has melted into the plastic connector shell and I fear that if I work it too hard (or as Rob calls it, BSFI) I'll either yank the wire out of the terminal crimp or I'll break the socket that the terminal is latched into on the shell. Either of those conditions will render me "fornicated".

So I'll start my search and just make sure we don't run the blower past the lo-mid settings. Frankly unless it is incredibly hot out I don't see a need to go all the way to high - the blower seems to have excess capacity for this little cockpit!
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:35 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Well, it may be a bit late now, but I would use a dressmaking pin, heat and bend the very tip into an L-hook and get in behind the bend of the contact from the top. Basically hook it out/open (back to the "original position" or beyond, on your (very nice) diagram!)

Anyway, good luck. Good job on finding another (if, hopefully, rare) failure condition in our cars. Mentally bookmarked! Thanks.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:01 AM   #54 (permalink)
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If you get the proper pick the terminal will release from the front. I'll check my book later and get back.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:13 AM   #55 (permalink)
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My book shows service part #88988776 for the connector, terminal/tray 12110842/4, release tool 15315247, for terminal D4 (ignition voltage).

There is likely a retaining tab on the terminal which would be on the opposite side of the terminal to your contact tab. You may need to push the wire further in to allow the pick to release it and then pull the wire out.

Terminals E1-5 are not used so you could relocate the connection.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:20 AM   #56 (permalink)
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If you get the proper pick the terminal will release from the front. I'll check my book later and get back.
That there is the problem - the latch finger that you'd normally push to the side to release the terminal is melted - nothing to get ahold of. Hence, I didn't push my luck until I find out if I can get a replacement shell.

Like the idea of relocating the contact, but would have to move the pin in the fuse panel. Might be able to rig something up that way - will dig into it tonight! (Thanks for the idea.)
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:33 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Talk nice to a dealer parts guy and he'll probably give you a terminal from his kit, problem solved.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:21 AM   #58 (permalink)
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glake - my manual called out a different OEM number for the connector that I wasn't able to find anywhere on-line other than Delphi's internal part catalog. Your service number 88988776 hit on several parts websites. The terminal number you listed agreed with one of the two terminal numbers my manual listed. Various websites called out both numbers also. I suspect it's either male/female or different gauge/load rating. I figure I just buy some of each and put what I don't need in the parts bins for future use.

Decided to buy at gmpartsdirect.com and of course they had the connector at about half the $5 everyone else listed it at. Then again, they had their ridiculous shipping and handling feest. All told I'm buying $12 worth of connector shell and 15 terminals and paying $14 for shipping and handling. lol. This gets me a permanent fix and keeps everything "original". Thanks again for all the help everyone!
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:49 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Well done. And kudos for posting, very good info to have.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:02 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Parts arrived yesterday. Repair completed tonight. Blower hummin'! I took pictures and will document the step by step here and probably another thread re: BCM swap and supply connector replacement. Was able to document the differences between terminals that are used in the connector as well.

Thanks again for all the insight and the ability to help me "bloodhound" this elusive little sucker!
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