Nice. That's definitly one honkin' core.
However what I was describing is to place the core inside the radiator "tunnel" in front of the A/c condenser.
Then using the stock intercooler location as a "scoop". Just shootin blanks in the air, not sure if it would be worth it in this application.
You won't need an entire radiator sized intercooler with a bar and plate. There will be sufficent cooling with a nice aftermarket core at 1/4 the size of a tube and fin.
PLus tube and fins flow like crap internally. THey use them for diesels because cooling it off completley is not nessecary, its cheap, and diesels don't flow a lot of air, due to rpm constraints.
It's pressure drop and thermal mass Im after. Some tubefins arn't nearly as bad asas others. I can get huge thermal inertia plus far better steadystate performance from a thin, large ambient area core tube fin.
Diesel cores flow quite well, they just have more ambient side area for their rated HP because they are designed to do it in a steady state.
I'm not arguing that barplate's don't flow much better than tube/fin, It's irrefutable.
I'm just saying I can squeeze a thin tube fin core with alot of ambient side area in front of the radiator that will have a acceptable pressure drop but far better temp recovery back to back.
It will also be a cheaper core and free up the current intercooler locale for an intake.
Last edited by BaldTurboFreak : 12-27-2007 at 06:33 PM.
Hrmm, well this is where I disagree with you.
Your large frontal area Tube and fin nice n' thin, will NOT have better steady state cooling. It might recover faster, but, are you seriously going to be in stop and go traffic?
Depth and height make a lot of difference in a core. Without the depth the height messes with flow a lot. In my 2.0T FSI passat, I already have the exact type of intercooler you're talking about. Go do some research on it. Its the size of a radiator, but even the tinyest bar and plate typical aftermarket core flows, and cools MUCH better than a radiator sized tube and fin.
Obviously the one to the left is stock. Much like the one you're looking for. Only remeber this testing is against a bar and plate, not a tube-fin / bar-plate as in what you and I were discussing.
Here is the test difference. Now, even the half height core get similar results, lemme see if I can find it. Most of the tests done were similar from manufacturer to manufacturer, so they are indeed comparable.
Here is what one would think of as a typical aftermarket IC.
Everyon eis entitled to an opinion,however from a materials science standpoint I cant see how your statement is true.
Your saying you believe that a core with 50% more area avaiible to the ambient side for heat transfer won't exchange heat faster in a steady state (wot during a topspeed run for example) than a thick bar/plate core?
Seems like they are both aluminum to me and are both subject to the same co-efficient of thermal tranfer (it's poor and is actually mathmatically intechangeable with electrical conductivity)
By that logic, why isnt the Radiator 25% it's size and made from bar/plate?
I'll tell you because Ive built one. Put internal flow path out of your head for a little bit.
For a given amount of BTU to dissipate into the atmo you need to have enough cool medium(air) to exchange with. How fast it tranfsfers thru the material is directy related to the temp delta and the materiall's thermal conductivity. With a small air echange area it takes far more air passing thru it to cool the mass.
Each air molecule does alot in the first inch, but by the time you have gotten to the last inch (in say a 4" core) there is virtually no exchange to be had becaue the temp has equalized.
Especially when the boost temps and ambient are closer together. It's harder to get rid of the last bit of heat.
So back to internal pressure drop, your beef with tube fin is the assumption they all flow like poop. But if both of them drop 1 psi on the flow bench at the rated CFM we're after, why would one perform better then the other (on a purely flow basis)? It wont't. It's all about charge temps vs recoverytime vs cost.
Like I said we're all entitled to an opionion here. Noone is "wrong" about what type of cores they like. I have built intercoolers from everytype there is. some are size HUGE!
Im jsut kicking ideas around. Y never know what Ill actually build when the time comes.
For street strip it pretty damn hard to beat a refrigerated liquid/air setup. Charge temps 20-30 deg BELOW ambient..
From a material science point of view.
You know that there are different types of aluminum alloys right?
Like that cheap tube and fin, or even cheap diesel bar and plate is made from an inferior alloy in most cases. You do know that right?
And as you said, its all due to value.
So, while your huge diesel tube and fin, which blocks 100% of the radiator, even though it won't slow the velocity as much as the thick short core , the thick short core doesn't block the entire radiator, so that we cannot argue we would need coolant data on that. Id fathom having the top of the radiator completly exposed would be more beneficial since all the heat rises.
Additionally, with a THIN style tube and fin, reduces velocity quite a bit, and therefor must be spread accordingly to obtain that (just one psi ) drop from core restriction. Which is fine, because you have that frontal area like your saying. The issue with that is, the farther away the intercooler is from the inlet and outlet, the slower the velocity. As that velocity slows, air travels the path of least resistance, which will cause slow moving stagnent air to stay at the top. Most of the air that actually needs cooling will pass right through to the other side keeping air hotter than it needed to be. Thats what you have to imagine about cooling effectivness.
With a thick core style, that same left to right transition actually have more available surface area to ambient air in a given moment of time. Simple because air travels fastest from inlet across to outlet.
SO in order to offset this natural flow occurence, which cannot be measured by measuring pressure drop alone, you would have to have a very tall core like your doing.
So I guess its your choice. But all actual data, #1, shows extruded tube fin cores to flow crappy ( unless they are huge ), usually have a poorer quality alloy, block the entire radiator despite not slowing velocity as much as a tight bar and plate, intrinsically having a thinner core cools poorer than a thick core at a shorter height, the only leg you've got to stand on is cost... Which I cannot dispute. The leg you cannot stand on of course is ignorance of data.
The data is out there my brother, go check it out.
Of couse Im well aware of different alloys and thier different properties, I payed attention in college.
First off, I'm not suggesting Im going to go get a used or stock tube fin core outta some other application. IF I do take that thinner core route it will only be a high quality garrett core. Ive used them and they ARE effective when in the correct application. http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...tercoolers.htm
Likely from the bottom of the list. remember ALL come tankless, the distribution part is up to me.
Again, noone is arguing that the barplate isn't a superior product in many ways.
It comes down to the same deal all engineer's face:Cost vs effectiveness.
Or in this case Cost vs DeltaT vs DeltaP
But all of this was tangent to the reason I suggested the use of a tubefin arragement in the first place, reduced fin density on the ambient side. Sticking anything in front of the radiator reduces flow, in addition the temp of the air feeding it.
The data that you posted in the pics above is a pretty unfair comparison as far as endtank design,coresize,weight(thermal inertia). Agreed your stocker is a real turd but it's nothing like I would use.
It's a Moot point anyway, as the more I get this car disassembled the less I like the idea of having one more thing in the tunnel. It will begin to look "busy". To go thru all of that just to have "ram air" (which was the point of moving the intercooler anyway) seems silly when I could get lower charge temps/pressuredrop/intake tract volume using other methods. Again I personally dig liquid/air cores the most when the application allows. Using the A/c to chill them can yield VERY impressive results. I have also used them in the intake plenum itself to provide better cyl/cyl distribution (like a MAF screen).
A Zo6 stlye hood and mating airbox might be a simpler means of breathing highpressure outside air.
Back to our normal programming, I have been searchin' for the right CAT monolith for the Downpipe. Our existing cat is double wall (and thick too) to keep the heat in, but still a relativly large core. I almost wanna chop it up and see if I can re-use it. I wonder how expensive a factory d-p and cat are...
Well I will recall my feeble effort at humor (should I have used a different smiley?) and play it off as illiteracy to gain your respect. lets all just have a nice hug now and get along
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pontiac builds excitement... Saturn has rethought it's image...
The time has come for the enthusiasts... NASSOA
Founding Member - Recording Secretary - Northeast ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lol mike you crack me up. Apparently they cannot read either. I.E. Re read the sentence I wrote and the one you quoted.
Hehe. :-D Hey man, my grammar and spelling are border line, and down right terrible when I'm trying to type quickly. Problem is my wife is an English teacher.
Baah I can take me a good ribbin' man, no biggie.
I wrote a paper as a freshman about electronic media an how the inability of us to use eyebrows,voice and facial expressions to augment conversation requires very careful wording to get the right point across. It's long lost now But I do remember getting a A.
Goofballism's and jibes aside anyone got a pic of the solo highflow cat? how big is it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pontiac builds excitement... Saturn has rethought it's image...
The time has come for the enthusiasts... NASSOA
Founding Member - Recording Secretary - Northeast ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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but it's nothing like I would use. 
lets all just have a nice hug now and get along
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