Alternative Engine for Solstice

[SkyCaptain]

Originally Posted by shabby Intresting info there about the 3800sc SkyCaptain, but what kinda rwd tranny will bolt up to the 3800? I believe the stock one is simply too weak so it'll have to go.

Yes, the stock Kappa transmission is too weak (by the numbers). One method of strengthening a transmission is through cryo treating (supercooling the metal to enhance the strength of the crystalline bonds). There are many places that will do this, but none near me. It's also slightly limited in it's application because it only makes a transmission stronger to a certain degree. For really high horsepower numbers you need to get a transmission that can handle more power out of the box...


And yes, I have a manual transmission in mind for that. The transmission has been put behind 750hp+ cars in drag racing applications from drag racing transmission companies. I have tracked down all parts necessary to bolt it to a fwd 3800 motor with NO physical modifications whatsoever, except for one, vital, part. I know the part I'm looking for exists somewhere, and will solve my problem, but I have not found one or the manufacturer yet...

Other than that, it will take some custom motor and transmission mounts, custom headers, custom electronics, custom intake system, custom fueling system, and possibly some mods to the suspension. The driveshaft may or may not need to be modified - I need to have my Kappa in my garage to figure that.

When I do, I'll be supplying all the necessary components for the DIY swappers who want to follow in my footsteps. I'll completely disclose what it takes at some time, but I've invested a lot of research, time, and $$$money$$$ into starting my own business around the Kappa and a few other cars. Until I can confidently supply complete kits (from basic swap kit to a complete kit with all the above mentioned items) at competitive package prices I really don't want to let all my knowledge into competitors hands. I hope you understand my reluctance - I've already invested over $10,000 into my budding company effort and I haven't even seen a Kappa with my own eyes yet! And I can tell that money is just the tip of the iceburg.

Originally Posted by funkywinkerbean Again, I am in awe of those with all this usable knowledge. I have some compatriots out there who also would really enjoy a V-6 with about 300 ponies. 300 seems to be the magic number - at least in the car magazines. This car would be the "Discount Corvette"! Humor me: 3.8 - 90 degree? The GM crate motor site says it cranks out 260 HP - where did 240 and 300 HP come from? If a V-8 will fit (Mallett), then why won't a V-6 fit? 3.9 ?? - sounds bigger than 3.8? 3.6 ?? - smaller but better? Dodge Dakota parts!!?? Could you install the new motor and keep the rest of the car stock? How about all the wires and hoses? Will they match up?

3800 (new 3.8) is a 90 degree GM V6. It was based on the Buick smallblock v8, which was significantly smaller than the chevy smallblock (just like the 4.3 v6 is based on the chevy smallblock, minus two cylinders). This is why it's a 90 degree engine. The buick smallblock V8 design was sold to the Rover company decades ago, but lives on across the sea - it's a very good design. The 3.8 turbo in the Grand National and turbo Regal made it very well known and proved it's potential as a performance motor. Although the current 3800 shares almost no common parts with the older 3.8 in those performance vehicles, every single difference in the motors was an improvement in the design. The internals are stronger, the mains are 4 bolt, the oiling channels and valleys are vastly improved, the heads flow much better, as well as the cooling. The only reason that the 3800 has been virtually ignored is because it comes mainly in the fwd version with a fwd bolt pattern. The exception is the 3800 f-body, and because of the availability of the amazing chevy v8's - the f-body 3800 gets ignored by most performance enthusiasts. It MIGHT have gotton more attention if GM had produced a few other types of rwd cars and used the 3800 motor in them, but I will not hash out the idiocy of the last 10 years of GM management in this thread...

Now, the Aussies used the 3800 supercharged in a rwd configuration... in the highly acclaimed Monaro.... and that became... yep... the GTO. The LS1 was quickly swapped because GM management ($@^#!@$#^$#$#%#) thought that Americans would never buy a performance V6. But again, I will not go into the idiocy of GM in this thread... (but I would have bought a $25k version of the GTO with the supercharged 6 in a heartbeat)

As far as the numbers for the 3800 supercharged, the Series II 3800 SC in my 01 GTP is rated at 240hp and 280tq stock. The Series III 3800 SC is rated at 260hp and 280tq stock. The only real difference was the supercharger was upgraded from a gen 3 eaton to a gen 5 eaton, and the exhaust was slightly improved on the 04 up GTP's (and now, supercharged GT's). No 3800 car came from GM with an intercooler. The eatons are twin screw superchargers (there are a few different types of SC) and that means they really need an intercooler to see what power the SC is really capable of. Once you bolt on an intercooler from one of the half dozen vendors that supply them, going over 300hp is as easy as walking into a wall. Actually 350hp-400hp is a matter of intake, exhaust, overdrive pulley for the supercharger, and a tune - after you have the all important intercooler. Don't even get me started on the turbo kits that have hit the market in the last year...

Yes, the v6 will fit. I don't have the picture with me, but if you set an ecotec and a 3800 next to each other, they are very comparable size. The ecotec is actually taller and longer. The 3800 is wider, but only at the top, where it "v's" for the 90 degree head offsets. This would actually put the COG of the 3800 lower and farther back than the ecotec, but since it weighs a little over 100 lbs (wet with accessories) more it would really be a wash as far as front to rear weight ratio, and you would probably want to make the front coilovers a little stiffer to "compensate" for the slightly different feel you would get. Now before anybody flips out, the balance would still be WAY closer to 50/50 and total weight would still be under 3000lbs (by a hair) than virtually anything else available with these power levels, from any manufacturer. So before any of you cry about your precious balance and handling, just remember there are LOTS of cars that have worse numbers than a swapped kappa would have, that are still considered incredibly good handling cars!

The 3.9 is a new motor. Yes it has more displacement. However there is no aftermarket for it at this time. It would be a fun and rewarding swap, but stock is the endpoint. With the 3800 you would be following in the footsteps of the GTP and Grand National aftermarket, with proven formulas from 500hp up to 1000hp and even more... (again, that being said, the v8 crowd has a paved that path many times over - don't discount v8archie and mallet if the ultimate goal is making the most horsepower or impressing your friends with the v8 - v6 advantage is high power while retaining good gas mileage and handling).

Dodge Dakota Parts! Yes, one DIY possibility uses the dakota bellhousing to mate a 60degV6 to a toyota supra tranny. Definately a possiblility. I assure you that the path I am taking is different and uses virtually 100% GM parts, off the shelf. The couple of driveline parts that are not GM are again, off the shelf. The path I am taking should allow anybody to walk into autozone and order replacement parts for the entire drivetrain (mounts and other stuff I listed above are custom, but all drivetrain parts I am formulating are off-the-shelf and unmodified).

Wires will have to be custom. Hoses will have to be "custom" in the sense that it will probably be an off-the-shelf part, but from a different car. These are easy though, and I have already contacted a reputable PCM company for wiring and computer control. This area has been well visited by the swap community - and plug and play harnesses and pcms will be available.

Originally Posted by Rickady88GT SkyCap. The 3800 is a 90* V and you will loose valuable room for the headers because of the wide V. That and the fact that they don't have an aluminum version is why I would not use it in a KAPPA. BUT the 3.9 IS a better option. It makes more power than the 3800 and has aluminum heads and has a 6 speed tranny. So you could bolt it to the 5 speed without the PCM reprogramming.

My tranny formula will bolt up any gm 60 degree v6 motor, as well as the 3800. Keep in touch. As far as more power, I have to disagree once you consider the aftermarket. Yes the 3.9 is a newer, powerful, impressive, smaller, lighter motor. It would be a wonderful swap and really would be easier as far as fitting it inside (and the balance numbers would be incredible). But when it comes to taking your vehicle to the next level, the 3800 is the king of the v6's. But I expect the 60 degree v6 motors will become popular swaps as well.

As far as fitting the 3800, if a LS motor will fit, a 3800 will fit. The 3800 is not "big" as far as v6's go.

Originally Posted by toddwcarpenter Rover's alloy block is based on a 1960's buick design and is about 3.9 liters. and very light!

Expect this to be the v8 swap practiced overseas, if the Kappa gets a european model. As mentioned above, this is the "uncle" of the 3800 and 3.8.


P.S. there are plenty of rwd manual transmissions capable of handling v8 power that bolt to a smallblock chevy. Expect Archie to have that one covered in spades.

[kingarthur]

The above is a very interesting post - the 3800 was used, of course, as the base engine for the rear wheeldrive Camaro and Firebirds for the years
1995 thru 2002. Therefore auto and manual trannies are available that bolt up
and are stock OEM GM. The 3800 was used in turbo form on the Buick Grand
National and was said to have produced at least 270 HP. The fact that the engine is only 100 lbs over stock ecotec, with more of its mass rearward means there won't be any significant weight bias towardss the front. Too
many writers make too much of a deal about 50/50 weight distribution, not realizing that once there is fuel in the tank (how much?) and human beings in the seats (how many and how heavy?) any 50/50 claims go out the window.
While tempting, I wouldn't go near this kind of mod unless my car was out of warranty, and I felt confident that I could maintain the car, or knew someone who would.

[funkywinkerbean]

Sky, now that is what I would call a detailed, informative and well delivered explanation.

The amazing thing about creativity and ingenuity is that it is always best described in individual terms. GM could be doing this but they would spend millions and have 20 engineers working on the project and a committee of bean counters calling the shots.

[Rickady88GT]

SkyCap I would love to see what you have cooking

I don't disagree with you on your choice of engine, per say. But I just have a slightly different felosophy? And would question your numbers on weight, COG and distribution with an all iron 3800 V6 with the added weight of a Super Charger (all up top by the way)? And what does Mallet have to do to the frame to fit the V8? Is it really a $18,000 swap that just uses off the shelf parts. Or is it so complex that it requires an in house swap because of the major structural and technical modifications? But you hit the nail on the head with the aftermarket potential of the 3800. I have seen a video of a Grand National on a Dyno SMOKING the tires on an 1100HP dyno pull


For some reason I want to do the swap as if it was a factory option. I don't see GM doing the 3800. If it were to be offered by GM it would most likely be the 3900 or the 2.8 CTS DOHC that BTW is Turbo'd in the Saab and makes great power.

HMMM all aluminum 2.8 DOHC turbo V6 6 speed Solstice

[funkywinkerbean]

SkyCap,

Comments earlier were made about the new CTS 3.6 VVT engine. I researched a few web sites about the motor and it is really impressive: V-6, Aluminum (light weight), incredible power to weight and power to displacement ratios and with lots of power: 255 HP at 6200 RPMs and 252 lb ft at a very friendly 3200 RPMs! Already RWD (I think), it may be easier to match up with the Solstice components?

Now I'm getting interested.

Seems like GM has a great set up already in production.

Now, I could use some educated counterpoint to the use of a V-6 with the above specifications vs. the use of a modified "Ecotec" (the name for the Solstice motor?) which would supposedly give similar numbers.

Would the "encouraged" 4-banger actually perform and respond like the above V-6? My last memory of riding in a turbocharged four banger was less than memorable - not much low end torque and a "rush" of power increase as you go up in the RPMs. Great at highway speeds for passing. Not great for unquantifiable things like "burble". I also felt like the car was being "pulled forward" as opposed to being "kicked in the butt" like my Corvette.

[Rickady88GT]

I love what I see in the 3.6 CTS engine. It will also be available in displacements from 2.8 all the way up to 4.0. And don't forget the near 7,000 rpm red line This engine IS the future performance V6 engine from GM. From what I hear this engine is way "De-tuned" from the factory and could easily be modified to make an unboosted 300HP. Then if you do boost it, say with a turbo, roots super charger or centrifugal super charger it could just ....KICK BUTT? It is a "Global" engine and this means it should be MASS produced and use in MANY different cars. That = MORE power= MORE donor car engines= More after market hop up parts= MORE to go around and= LESS money to buy one And like I have already said GM already makes a Turbo Version of this engine. It is the 2.8 and is used in the SAAB. And it can be bought in Rear Wheel Drive or Front Wheel Drive and no doubt it will also be available with All Wheel Drive soon.

[vermontster]

displacement up to 4.0
tell me more please
now i'm really interested
no replacement for displacement

[SkyCaptain]

Originally Posted by Rickady88GT SkyCap I would love to see what you have cooking I don't disagree with you on your choice of engine, per say. But I just have a slightly different felosophy? And would question your numbers on weight, COG and distribution with an all iron 3800 V6 with the added weight of a Super Charger (all up top by the way)?

I believe I may not have been clear on that. Apologies. I'll be using the supercharged motor, but swapping out the supercharger for a turbo. At first I had believed that a stock supercharger would fit, but after studying even more Kappa engine bay photos I'm not sure it can be done. The problem is the clearance from the back of the engine to the firewall, which would obstruct the air intake on the stock supercharger setup. The supercharger could always be moved, however...

And what does Mallet have to do to the frame to fit the V8? Is it really a $18,000 swap that just uses off the shelf parts. Or is it so complex that it requires an in house swap because of the major structural and technical modifications? But you hit the nail on the head with the aftermarket potential of the 3800. I have seen a video of a Grand National on a Dyno SMOKING the tires on an 1100HP dyno pull

I'm not sure what Mallet has to do, and honestly the comparison isn't really fruitful. The approach and the results of the 3800 swap vs. the LS swap will be very different. The price difference is actually one of the least important factors when deciding which one meets your needs...

For some reason I want to do the swap as if it was a factory option. I don't see GM doing the 3800. If it were to be offered by GM it would most likely be the 3900 or the 2.8 CTS DOHC that BTW is Turbo'd in the Saab and makes great power. HMMM all aluminum 2.8 DOHC turbo V6 6 speed Solstice

Like I said, it's a great swap path, and unlike the Mallet swap, my swap will have a lot of useable technical information & common parts that will apply to the 3.6 and 3.9. I will share once I have the formula right.

[SkyCaptain]

Originally Posted by funkywinkerbean SkyCap, Now, I could use some educated counterpoint to the use of a V-6 with the above specifications vs. the use of a modified "Ecotec" (the name for the Solstice motor?) which would supposedly give similar numbers. Would the "encouraged" 4-banger actually perform and respond like the above V-6? My last memory of riding in a turbocharged four banger was less than memorable - not much low end torque and a "rush" of power increase as you go up in the RPMs. Great at highway speeds for passing. Not great for unquantifiable things like "burble". I also felt like the car was being "pulled forward" as opposed to being "kicked in the butt" like my Corvette.

Well, this will probably get the turbo-4 fans all riled up....
Even in it's stock form, the 240hp/280tq 3800 SC engine stomps the turbo-4s being produced. I have no doubt that it will out perform the one coming in the Solstice as well. Even though it peaks at 250hp, when you look at area under the curve the 3800 SC is the leader, by far. It has 90% of it's hp and torque across it's entire rpm range.

And like I said before, the 3800 SC motor gets those numbers without an intercooler. Once you put an intercooler on it, the 4 cylinders aren't even in the same class, dollar for dollar.

[RobRoy]

Originally Posted by kingarthur The above is a very interesting post - the 3800 was used, of course, as the base engine for the rear wheeldrive Camaro and Firebirds for the years 1995 thru 2002. Therefore auto and manual trannies are available that bolt up and are stock OEM GM. The 3800 was used in turbo form on the Buick Grand National and was said to have produced at least 270 HP. The fact that the engine is only 100 lbs over stock ecotec, with more of its mass rearward means there won't be any significant weight bias towardss the front. Too many writers make too much of a deal about 50/50 weight distribution, not realizing that once there is fuel in the tank (how much?) and human beings in the seats (how many and how heavy?) any 50/50 claims go out the window. While tempting, I wouldn't go near this kind of mod unless my car was out of warranty, and I felt confident that I could maintain the car, or knew someone who would.

In order to use the 3800 in the F-Bodies they actually made the transmission with a bolt-on bellhousing, so the same transmission could fit multiple bolt patterns. Isn't the manual transmission in the Solstice the same one as used for the Colorado? How much power does it's 5-cylinder put out?

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by SkyCaptain Well, this will probably get the turbo-4 fans all riled up... Even in it's stock form, the 240hp/280tq 3800 SC engine stomps the turbo-4s being produced. I have no doubt that it will out perform the one coming in the Solstice as well. Even though it peaks at 250hp, when you look at area under the curve the 3800 SC is the leader, by far. It has 90% of it's hp and torque across it's entire rpm range.

Speculation is fine, but I'd rather wait until we see the Solstice turbo's final power numbers, power curve, and see some actual track results of the engine in the Solstice before declaring that a stock 3800 S/C swapped into a Solstice would "stomp" it.

[SkyCaptain]

I'm not speculating.
I stand by my statement.

Originally Posted by SkyCaptain Even in it's stock form, the 240hp/280tq 3800 SC engine stomps the turbo-4s being produced.

[SkyCaptain]

Originally Posted by RobRoy In order to use the 3800 in the F-Bodies they actually made the transmission with a bolt-on bellhousing, so the same transmission could fit multiple bolt patterns.

Most manual transmissions use bolt on bellhousings. That's nothing new to the f-body. The F-body transmission is virtually unusable because the bellhousing, transmission case, and tail housing are all on a 15 degree angle from every other transmission in existence.

[Fformula88]

Originally Posted by SkyCaptain I'm not speculating. I stand by my statement.

Then let me refine....

Originally Posted by SkyCaptain I have no doubt that it will out perform the one coming in the Solstice as well.

Yes, I'd say there is some speculation in there. It is a nice statement. Might come true. Yet, as I said, I cannot see much basis for making such a statement. Especiallty if your going to qualify it based on other turbo engines being produced, but not want me to associate your comments about those other engines with the Sol's upcoming turbo.

[SkyCaptain]

You're right. :embarassment:
I speculated.
You know me, always shooting from the hip...
(at least I have good aim!)