Well I have experience with nitrous, but none with a Direct Injection car or a turbocharged car. It seems in theory that a wet kit wont cause problems with the direct injection, due to the fact that even though the mixture isnt as dispersed as the factory injected fuel, the factory fuel will still atomize theoretically at the same rate and serve as a catalyst for the less dispersed fuel dispensed by a fuel jet. Please correct me if that's not the correct train of thought.
Factory FPR--- the DI runs at 3xxx psi yep, but is there an external fuel pressure regulator before the DI pump and injectors to work a fuel solenoid off of or will I need a standalone pump to fuel the solenoid.
Jetting, and AFR - Given that these cars run close to 13:1 stock, I'm assuming 12.0-12.5:1 is safe with a small (35-50 shot) shot of gas to make a little extra power. Especially due to the cooling of the charge of hot air from the tiny turbo. However, what is a good baseline to start from when jetting the system on the fuel side? Given that its a turbo car a 35 jet of nitrous will produce over 50hp, I'm assuming you'd jet for the actual power produced with the setup. (verified by wideband either way during setup of course)
Timing I dont think will be an issue with a small shot, given the already ultra conservative timing tables with the LNF.
Injection point... After the MAF, probably in one of the hardpipes. But hot side to cool the I/C as well, or cold side close to the intake manifold. I'm guessing you could go either way, but what difference would it make on either side (and why). I'm guessing the leftover fuel residue in the intercooler wouldnt be a good thing, but would it be enough to cause issue?
Option 2: A small 25-35 shot dry kit before the MAF. Not ideal, but if there's no viable fuel source, it might have to be a dry shot. Would this cause any issue with the turbo? Subzero air hitting the turbine blades cause any problems at WOT? Again, I dont have experience with nitrous in turbo cars. Experts post up, forum lawyers stay out.
One more minor concern is the PCM. Not so much that it will notice the nitrous, which it shouldnt, but rather its torque sensing features. What will happen if it retards the engine's power due to the nitrous' increased output and how is that retard accomplished. Obviously you dont want fuel cut or spark cut spraying the juice, but everything points toward the retard being a gradual effect.
yuh kinda left me speechless too........ nobody called ((shotgun yet ))))
my 1st thought is you so crazy ! .......the next is limp city
but on a constructive note ...... maybe some other site has more experts...this ain't an advanced nitro crowd
by all means film it !! 320 is nothing - i'm sure we all wanna see that
i wish i were smarter ....sugar bump i can't help but shotgun sounds fun !!
good luck !!
__________________
BOOsted 2.4
42lb injectors
3" tubes front to back
5-7 boost
trim 50 garrett t3/t4 custom- bare bones pumpking
38mm tial wastegate / bov
custom i/c (BELL)
Werks radiator
aem wideband
gxp exhaust /magna flo - integrated dumptube ( b_faster and R&D automotive
custom manifold (sh**er the skunk )
hi flo cat
HPTUNING - the hard part !!!
JET-HOT 2000
aerologic egt kit
YEAH I DID THAT !
Location: Long Island, NY... a sister island to the Hawaiian chain. ;-)
Very little experience here... No experience if you ask me about my own cars. ...but you're not getting much activity, so I'll throw my thoughts out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
Well I have experience with nitrous, but none with a Direct Injection car or a turbocharged car. It seems in theory that a wet kit wont cause problems with the direct injection, due to the fact that even though the mixture isnt as dispersed as the factory injected fuel, the factory fuel will still atomize theoretically at the same rate and serve as a catalyst for the less dispersed fuel dispensed by a fuel jet. Please correct me if that's not the correct train of thought.
Can't argue with the logic. The theory seems sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
Factory FPR--- the DI runs at 3xxx psi yep, but is there an external fuel pressure regulator before the DI pump and injectors to work a fuel solenoid off of or will I need a standalone pump to fuel the solenoid.
Don't have shop manual. Can't see anything in any of the stuff available on the web. I think you're gonna need a stand alone pump.
No input for the next two questions/comments you had/made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
Injection point... After the MAF, probably in one of the hardpipes. But hot side to cool the I/C as well, or cold side close to the intake manifold. I'm guessing you could go either way, but what difference would it make on either side (and why). I'm guessing the leftover fuel residue in the intercooler wouldnt be a good thing, but would it be enough to cause issue?
There's going to be delay if you go in the hot side. People don't understand that the pressure buildup through the IC is almost instantaneous.
Think of ping pong balls totally filling a tube. Now put another ping pong ball in one end and a ping pong ball pops immediately out the other. It's just like that.
Granted, there are some compression effects/delays with the turbo IC system, but they are measured in fractions of a second. So the effects of the turbine are expressed at the engine's intake ports well before the actual air moving through the turbine reaches the ports. The "turbo lag" we feel is all about the time it takes to spin up the turbine, not the time it takes for the air to go through the IC system. Again, the effects are almost instantaneous.
I think you'll be VERY unhappy with the delay if you inject the shot in the hot side pipe. You want that shot to be as close to the intake ports as possible.
And I wouldn't dream of doing it before the turbo. That turbo could be an ignition source. One day those bearings will be wearing out and get red hot.... You hit the button and.... Ka-BOOM!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
Option 2: A small 25-35 shot dry kit before the MAF. Not ideal, but if there's no viable fuel source, it might have to be a dry shot. Would this cause any issue with the turbo? Subzero air hitting the turbine blades cause any problems at WOT? Again, I dont have experience with nitrous in turbo cars. Experts post up, forum lawyers stay out.
Never before the MAF. You'll screw up everything. The MAF senses air density by the change in temperature/resistance in a filament. You spray NOX before the MAF and the MAF won't know what hit it.
Never before the turbo for similar reasons as mentioned above. The unwanted delay and NOX will allow stuff to burn... really easy! You don't want to send it through the turbine. If, for any reason, it provides and ignition source, you could have an engine fire really quick.
Also, you don't want the delay associated with the stuff having to travel through the whole "gerbil tube" before you get your pleasure. You want immediate gratification. That means as close to the intake valves as you can get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
One more minor concern is the PCM. Not so much that it will notice the nitrous, which it shouldnt, but rather its torque sensing features. What will happen if it retards the engine's power due to the nitrous' increased output and how is that retard accomplished. Obviously you dont want fuel cut or spark cut spraying the juice, but everything points toward the retard being a gradual effect.
I'd guess an ECM tune is a must. You could try it first and see what happens, but the Nanny in the box is not gonna like you very much at all.
__________________
Disclaimers:
1) This in no way constitutes an admission of modification of any vehicle in my posession. This and other posts submitted on this forum simply represent an attempt to gain acceptance from a peer group and are to be considered fictitious.
2) This is not professional advice. This is casual conversation.
Last edited by Maika'i GXP : 08-30-2007 at 09:43 PM.
Speaking from absolutely no experience just observations. Local tuners with 7 to 9 second turboed car use an alchohol spray vice N02. The alchohol cools the intake charge and seems to burn hoter if that makes any sense. They spray just before the throttle body.
__________________
BIX A BEL Cool, Ebony leather, Chrome, loaded, no XM/onstar Founding member of the "Lost Sols Club"
Deposit (1100) - 9/29/05, 1101/1102 - 2 Feb 06, 2500 - 7 Feb 06, 3000 - 8 Feb 06, 3100 - 13 Feb 06, 3300 - 13 Feb 06, 3400 - 14 Feb 06, 3800 - 24 Feb 06 (112544), 4000 - 24 Feb 06, 4150 - 24 Feb 06
dealer expected deliver 6 March, arrived 28 Feb, picked up that night w 3.2 miles on the clock :)
NOT WAITING ANY MORE!
Location: Long Island, NY... a sister island to the Hawaiian chain. ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Critterman
Speaking from absolutely no experience just observations. Local tuners with 7 to 9 second turboed car use an alchohol spray vice N02. The alchohol cools the intake charge and seems to burn hoter if that makes any sense. They spray just before the throttle body.
Sometimes alchohol is used instead of fuel because of it's higher octane rating. Once the charge is ignited, pressures ramp up quickly in the cylinder, sometimes causing the remaining charge to detonate. Alcohol will delay this flash point.
This is actually a very good idea for our already high compression engines. Now that you've brought it up, if I were to consider NOX, I'd couple it with alcohol for this very reason.
"...before the throttle body."? I've seen this set up (for alcohol and fuel) in a plate upon which the throttle body sits, so it's after the throttle body.
Injecting before the throttle body has a couple of downsides...
First, on a carburated engine the alcohol/NOX mix will screw up the vaporization of fuel. Remember that the carburator jets are trying to spray out fuel with the goal of it becoming vapor by the time it reaches the cylinders. If you're evaporating alchohol and injecting a charge of NOX, say goodbye to any chances of proper vaporization.
Oh, sure... it will work... the car will take off like hell as it burns alcohol and NOX, but you'll have liquid fuel and incomplete combustion leaving nasty deposits all over the place.
Second, if it's humid outside, the NOX will immediately precipitate and crystalize the moisture in the air. This is the white smoke you see when you spray it. NOX is invisible. It's the water and ice particles that you see.
It will be like spray painting with ice. Doing this in the intake manifold is no problem because the ice will melt VERY quickly due to the high heat. But doing this into the throttle body could be ugly. There is already a temperature drop at the throttle body. In fact, icing is already an issue. If you spray paint ice on it, that ice is going to stick around much longer than we'd like.
__________________
Disclaimers:
1) This in no way constitutes an admission of modification of any vehicle in my posession. This and other posts submitted on this forum simply represent an attempt to gain acceptance from a peer group and are to be considered fictitious.
2) This is not professional advice. This is casual conversation.
Last edited by Maika'i GXP : 08-31-2007 at 08:53 AM.
I will have to take another look when I am down at the shop getting my dyno work done. This shop is only using Alchohol and I could have sworn the nozzle is before the TB. You could be right it may well be behind the TB. I will take a look. They are making massive power on the high boost and spray.
__________________
BIX A BEL Cool, Ebony leather, Chrome, loaded, no XM/onstar Founding member of the "Lost Sols Club"
Deposit (1100) - 9/29/05, 1101/1102 - 2 Feb 06, 2500 - 7 Feb 06, 3000 - 8 Feb 06, 3100 - 13 Feb 06, 3300 - 13 Feb 06, 3400 - 14 Feb 06, 3800 - 24 Feb 06 (112544), 4000 - 24 Feb 06, 4150 - 24 Feb 06
dealer expected deliver 6 March, arrived 28 Feb, picked up that night w 3.2 miles on the clock :)
NOT WAITING ANY MORE!
I am now running a car with a a dual stage progressive 350 (rwhp) shot and have experimented with NOS, NX and now WON systems. I can point out a couple of issues:
1. If you inject too far away from the throtle bodies, the fuel mixture will not be consistent and you can possibly have different a/f mixtures for different cylinders.
2. The burn rate on the DI engine is already optimized. Ignition timing is misleading because they are obtaining the max cylinder pressure (or burn rate) via the di, therefore, at wot very little advance is needed to obtain the max cylinder pressure.
3. The safest place for the sprayer is as close to the throttle body as possible as you will get maximum mixing at that point. The benefit is greater than that of cooling down the hard pipe. This also overcomes some of the reliability issues associated with injecting nitrous into the intake. When you inject in the intake there are multiple scenarios that can lead to engine failures.
If you want to mate up a nitrous system to the solstice, the WON (Wizard of Nitrous) systems would work well. They have a lot of advantages over NX and NOS and IMHO everyone else is a distant player or a niche supplier. I would start very carefully and edge your way up.
There is also an unknown factor in the a/f. The commanded a/f at wot is approximately 13-13.5 until about 4800 rpm's, at that point it changes to 12-12.5 and it is not a gentle transition. There is a reason that is most probably deals with cylinder temperature, that is the one point that scares me as it relates to nitrous. It would be nice if you experimented a little and lead the way LOL.
Your telling me a whole lot of what I already know. I'm positive the cylinders can take it, I'm talking a small (read: 35 shot worth) shot that should be worth ~50hp and 80tq. The issue is plumbing the fuel side into the fuel system. Settled on the cold side pipe elbow right before the throttle body for the injection point, should be low and stealthy as well tucked in there, but are there any bright ideas on where to source the fuel? Standalone is an expensive option to run a seperate reservior with some 101 unleaded to spray with the nitrous, I'd rather just tee off the existing line, but not sure if that's possible with the fuel system on these cars because there's no fuel rail to tee off of.
I think youd be better off running a complete auxillary fuel system, pump, regulator, fuel cell and all. Im not sure what kind of pressure is fed to the high pressure pump although Id have to guess that there would be enough extra volume to support a small shot. I also dont think that there is a good way to tap into the fuel system before the high pressure pump anyway. Besides, if you ran a auxillary small fuel cell youd have the option of using a high quality fuel if need be while still using pump gas in the primary tank and youd be able to change the pressure independently of the stock system. The question is, is it really worth all the complcation and expense for such a small shot. Of course, without knowing more about the stock fuel system, this is all speculation.
There are several sources that sell a small fuel cell with an in-the-tank pump. It is a return type system, but, it is all done on the tank, therefore, you only need to run to the sprayer. It is made specifically for nitrous and has an adjustable pressure output.
Location: Long Island, NY... a sister island to the Hawaiian chain. ;-)
And with a separate fuel cell with an in-the-tank pump, you'd have the option of running alcohol instead of finding/mixing higher octane gas.
Since you're planning to spray prior to the throttle body, alcohol's slower vaporization would probably not be a problem and you'd still have good mixing.
I too am very eager to hear about your results, once you complete this project. Thank you in advance for leading the way for the rest of us.
__________________
Disclaimers:
1) This in no way constitutes an admission of modification of any vehicle in my posession. This and other posts submitted on this forum simply represent an attempt to gain acceptance from a peer group and are to be considered fictitious.
2) This is not professional advice. This is casual conversation.
