V8 Weight Imbalance Theories Debunked

[snaponbob]

Interesting weight results. My 5 speed Redline scales at 3025 in race (Solo) trim. This is with 315 A6s, 18X9 OZ's, and 1/4 tank of gas, and Curt hitch in place (33 pounds). On a local set of individual scales (not the "total weight" SCCA scales) my car shows 52/48 f/r. Curious.

BTW, the suspension geometry, springs, and bars, seem to be responsible for the basic understeer tendencies as this how GM builds ALL their cars, even Z06s. ONE simple change (a slightly stiffer rear bar) fixes most of the push. Of course, all that V8 torque can loosen up a DUMP TRUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[perris]

Originally Posted by NormSky Wade, you modify your car and I'll modify mine. Then we'll find a shop with corner weight scales in Columbus, Ohio, to compare cars. We'll plan it on a Sunday when there is an auto cross and we'll see how weight and front/rear balance means. Norm

yup, he missed your point, that he's using modified numbers on the his 8 cylendar, for real comparison we would need the same type of midificiations on the gxp

on the other hand, he is modifying compared to us not modifying so I think he makes a good point as well

[WadeLinger]

Well, the scale ticket clearly shows that the LS7 car has 52% of its weight up front, and 48% in the rear. My point was only to show that it is inaccurate to assume V8 Solstices are front-heavy and imbalanced. I made no comments or criticisms about other peoples' choices of mods.

Now it seems we are debating the overall weight 'penalty' of the V8 car.

Keep in mind that it was not me who is making posts critical of other people's cars. I am just responding to inacurate statements about mine.

So now that the imbalance question is cleared up with actual scale tickets, I will address the weight 'penalty' comment posted above.

The 2.4L Solstice weighed 2900 pounds and has 173 horsepower. That's about 16.76 pounds per horse.

The 2.0 GXP weighed 2960 pounds and has 260 horsepower. That's about 11.38 pounds per horse.

The LS7 car weighed 3100 pounds and has 505 horspower. That's about 6.14 pounds per horse, including the 'penalty.'

I don't care if you add a full tank of gas to the LS7 car and empty the tanks in the 4-bangers, you're not going to change those numbers in any meaningful way.

I think I can learn to live with the 'penalty' associated with the V8.

[Spedee]

Well, all I can say is these cars are fast. Thanks for the ride Wade!

[NormSky]

Now your comparing one data point of almost 7,000 of which is maintained for a fraction of a second?

How do we not know that the top was not folded up in the trunk and the cover open putting all the weight towards the rear of the LS7? Not sure what your trying to sell here.

And these scales are certified for what...tractor trailers?

Really need corner weight scales.

Norm

[wspohn]

Not sure what all the fuss is. The V8 conversions don't add enough weight in the front to throw out the handling of the Solstice. OK.

We aren't talking about putting a 7 litre cast iron big block into a Lotus 7 here. These modern V8s weigh nothing like the traditional ones.

An LS* powered Solstice should still be a fairly well balanced car, well within the range that can be fine tuned with the usual suspension techniques.

So the only question is, would you rather have a traditional hot rod - big engine small car ride, or a high tech small engine big power version. Hint - there is no 'right' answer. Both are fun.

Thanks for the weight information.

[NormSky]

Bill, you used to race. What would 250 lbs(217 lbs says Car & Driver plus 27 lbs for wet T56 plus few more quarts of oil for the LS7) do to you or one of your competitors in a race? It taxes tires brakes, cooling system...


Norm

[King-Oka]

I have a DDM Stage 2 S/C setup which delivers almost 300HP. Power to the wheels is getting to be an issue ( not to mention clutch).

I would love to have an LS7 setup like Wades, and someday may go there (once I burn up the 2.4, and providing the balance of the car is still in decent shape).

To keep this string constructive, maybe Wade can tell me about my (only) concern with his setup - how does it translate to rear wheel HP? Can you launch effectively without going squirrley? Is it manageable between stoplights on the street?
Have you done any 1/4 mile times and how do they look?

[NormSky]

Wade, I was going to call you out when I did not see AC lines from the 4 cylinder on the driver's when they are on the passenger's side like the Vette. Aunce you were on the Tour I assume you had AC!

Pretty slick!

Norm

[wspohn]

Originally Posted by NormSky Bill, you used to race. What would 250 lbs(217 lbs says Car & Driver plus 27 lbs for wet T56 plus few more quarts of oil for the LS7) do to you or one of your competitors in a race? It taxes tires brakes, cooling system...

Norm, that overlooks one important fact. People aren't racing (or at least the vast majority aren't). They are just dressing up their street cars in race bling and pretending they COULD race. So what's the difference if you add a few pounds as long as it doesn't destroy the balance of the car for street or perhaps slalom use.

3/4 of the guys on this site think getting to a 1/4 mile the fastest is the path to Nirvana.

Most of the rest just like screwing around on the street, maybe appreciate decent handling, but aren't exactly connoisseurs of crispness in that area - because they don't have to be (and it shouldn't matter much if they are driving close to legally).

The other 1-2% who either run solo events or race, and know the difference might quibble about the additional weight, but many would still consider the trade off a fair one as I doubt the amount of weight added will destroy the handling.

I used to run a lighter race car than I do today (had it down to 1750 lbs. at one stage). Then I worked back up about 150 lbs. worth, but I did it as a result of additions and modifications that I considered to be a fair trade off. I now run 4 wheel dics brakes that stay balanced throughout a race instead of changing balance part way through as the rears heat up and fade a bit. I run steel historic peg drive knock off wheels that I refitted when I took off the magnesium wheels when I stopped running CASC/SCCA and went vintage. I switched to an engine that weighs maybe 80 lbs' more than my old one because it is a DOHC engine, but provides another 1500 RPM and 50 BHP over the old pushrod I used to run.

I added maybe 2-3% over the front of the car, and it was easily tuneable as far as chassis was concerned, and resulted in a car that goes and stops better.

The Solstice owners that choose V8 power, trade off a similar amount of weight, and while their car would almost certainly be less agile and handy on a slalom course, I'm sure to them it is worth it.

Personally, I prefer working with the 4 cylinder engine (I've done both approaches in the past), but I sense ai am in the minority in that.

I think there is room for both flavours of enthusiasts.

[TecSolOnt]

I see someone asked about getting the power to the ground with the V8, have you run a 1/4 with this Wade? I saw the video's on your cars , awesome looking vehicles. Like the Cobra like front ends, paint schemes are gorgeous.

Noted on the V8 Solstice forum only one time ticket and if I remember it was 13.8 , 105 mph which in some cases is slower than the turbo and supercharged cars are running. So I'm wondering what is the advantage of throwing a V8 in a Sol or Sky outside of bragging rights and that lovely sound they produce?

[Envious06]

Norm seems to have a bad case of p&n!$ envy here. You want to race Wade around a parking lot? What a waste of time, and unnecessary damage to car parts. He wouldn't even be able to take it out of first gear. Why don't you just give in to the fact that Wades' car would waste yours anywhere, anyplace and anytime. Man up and be done with it. The only "penalty" that his car has compared to yours is having to stop at the gas station more often. A scale is a scale, I think the sheets he provided pretty much tell the story. Half tank, full tank, top down are miniscule differences. As for the drag racing thing, anybody heard of racing slicks? You don't take a V8 Sol to the track on RSA's and expect good results. All told, where the V8 would really shine is on a nice road course with some nice long straights kind of like the old Camaro vs Mustang Trans-Am days that also happened to be front engine/rear drive configurations. Yes, it can be done.

[wspohn]

Originally Posted by TecSolOnt I see someone asked about getting the power to the ground with the V8, have you run a 1/4 with this Wade? I saw the video's on your cars , awesome looking vehicles. Like the Cobra like front ends, paint schemes are gorgeous. Noted on the V8 Solstice forum only one time ticket and if I remember it was 13.8 , 105 mph which in some cases is slower than the turbo and supercharged cars are running. So I'm wondering what is the advantage of throwing a V8 in a Sol or Sky outside of bragging rights and that lovely sound they produce?

Straight line acceleration is all about getting power to the ground, and any front engine RWD car is at a disadvantage compared to a mid or rear engine RWD car.

I had a friend that used to do V8 conversions on Miatas and they found that their results were somewhat disappointing no matter how much power they built into the small block Ford engines they were using, because the cars were traction limited.

Obviously cars with IRS can be set up to optimize traction, but still, a mid-engine car with the same engine will pretty much always whup them. Take a look at Fiero V8 conversions if you want better times.

[wspohn]

PS - one of my cars is a plastic bodied beast with a big block high compression Chrysler motor with a sixpack on it. It only weighs maybe 250 lbs. more than a Solstice, but it is also traction limited. However.....the jensen factory collaborated with Ferguson in Britain and took a Jensen FF chassis (the 4 wheel drive version of the Interceptor), rebodied it and stuck a tuned Chrysler Hemi in it with around 600 BHP and 560 ft-lbs. and the traction of the 4 wheel drive allowed it to attain a record time in a sprint from 0 - 100 MPH, and back to 0 again, of 11.5 seconds, (a much better over all test of performance than just a run to the 1/4 mile). And it did the same 0-100-0 in the wet in only 12.2 secs. And that was 35 years ago on tires that we'd laugh at today.

Forget about that with just about any RWD vehicle.

I wonder how hard it would be to shoehorn a 4WD unit into the front of the Solstice.......

Stick 600 BHP into a Solstice and it doesn't give you 9 second 1/4s, it gives you a tire shredding spectacle for people that like watching burn out contests!

PPS - if you want to see what modern cars are capable of in the 0-100-0, see The world’s fastest cars from 0-100-0 mph (in order)

[King-Oka]

Originally Posted by wspohn PS - one of my cars is a plastic bodied beast with a big block high compression Chrysler motor with a sixpack on it. It only weighs maybe 250 lbs. more than a Solstice, but it is also traction limited. However.....the jensen factory collaborated with Ferguson in Britain and took a Jensen FF chassis (the 4 wheel drive version of the Interceptor), rebodied it and stuck a tuned Chrysler Hemi in it with around 600 BHP and 560 ft-lbs. and the traction of the 4 wheel drive allowed it to attain a record time in a sprint from 0 - 100 MPH, and back to 0 again, of 11.5 seconds, (a much better over all test of performance than just a run to the 1/4 mile). And it did the same 0-100-0 in the wet in only 12.2 secs. And that was 35 years ago on tires that we'd laugh at today. Forget about that with just about any RWD vehicle. I wonder how hard it would be to shoehorn a 4WD unit into the front of the Solstice....... Stick 600 BHP into a Solstice and it doesn't give you 9 second 1/4s, it gives you a tire shredding spectacle for people that like watching burn out contests! PPS - if you want to see what modern cars are capable of in the 0-100-0, see The world’s fastest cars from 0-100-0 mph (in order)

I hate to play the value card here, but some of us are really looking for "fun for the buck". None of the fastest cars listed (or otherwise) get there. It would be interesting to know what the top 10 fastest cars under 40K were. That list, I would save for my next purchase date.