I would like to point something out, No one, I repeat no one with a turbo equipped 2.4 has posted to this board that they have had a catastrophic failure due to the turbo. There are over a hundred, maybe over 200 turbo equipped 2.4s on this board. If there was a problem with motors blowing up due to the turbos you would think with all of the posts on this board about turbos you would of heard about it.
I know of 1 person (not from this board) who broke a piston ring on his Solstice with a home grown turbo system (not Hahn or Werks). This was due to him ignoring very obvious knock. I can't emphasize enough if you here knock under WOT you need to find better gas or turn down the boost. This is rule #1 regarding after market turbo systems.
Give it a rest.
POINT OUT whatever you want - but 100-> to over 200 boosted sols /skys ??? hahaha yuh kiddin right ... ...... ????
we're to believe theres over 200 boosted sols and skys and no failures -
theres maybe a dozen or 2 SC and prolly another 2 dozen turbo'd 2.4 sol/skysPERIOD............no where near " maybe over 200 ".......read that as my guess is less than 50
i am interested and don't appreciate being
censored , or chastised - or being told - hearing ==>>> "GIVE IT A REST !! "- i am very interested in this thread !! and everything ANYONE has to add............fairly clear we need more info /input.............. for a factual glimpse of reality dayum i been wondering what happened to mark's car - lost track thought someone had bought it in fla........
sounds like 4 damaged engines out of prolly closer to 50 total ( imo " maybe over 200" is a ludicris exaggeration) if we're talkin boosted 2.4 sols/skys.........
one in BC
one in CA
one mentioned by (idkfa & solscuba ) prolly boosted sols - marks "silverbullet " - ate rocker ? that i've been wondering about
and the one per bill1966 - broke a pistonring
theres no reason to doubt people posting what they know - we don't need a notary or sworn affidavit to believe the 4 listed damaged engines......
__________________
BOOsted 2.4
42lb injectors
3" tubes front to back
5-7 boost
trim 50 garrett t3/t4 custom- bare bones pumpking
38mm tial wastegate / bov
custom i/c (BELL)
Werks radiator
aem wideband
gxp exhaust /magna flo - integrated dumptube ( b_faster and R&D automotive
custom manifold (sh**er the skunk )
hi flo cat
HPTUNING - the hard part !!!
JET-HOT 2000
aerologic egt kit
YEAH I DID THAT !
I can't emphasize enough if you here knock under WOT you need to find better gas or turn down the boost. This is rule #1 regarding after market turbo systems.
Hi Bill1966,
What about PING going into WOT.....I have heard what seems to be ping while in low boost conditions... any thoughts ? Don't mean to hijack
Thanks
__________________
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
2007 - 2.4 - Black - Hahn Stage 3, Hahn Hi-Flow CAT, Solo SQR-2, Norm's Finned Diffuser & Fenders, GReddy BOV & PRofec-B Spec-II B/C, Autometer Mech Boost & Electric Oil Temp gauges, DDM Two gauge A-Pillar POD & Powdercoated valve & engine covers, Illuminated WR, JPM Centre Console, Arm Rests & Visor Covers, Stubby Antenna
Team Solstice 2008
I would like to point something out, No one, I repeat no one with a turbo equipped 2.4 has posted to this board that they have had a catastrophic failure due to the turbo. There are over a hundred, maybe over 200 turbo equipped 2.4s on this board. If there was a problem with motors blowing up due to the turbos you would think with all of the posts on this board about turbos you would of heard about it.
I know of 1 person (not from this board) who broke a piston ring on his Solstice with a home grown turbo system (not Hahn or Werks). This was due to him ignoring very obvious knock. I can't emphasize enough if you here knock under WOT you need to find better gas or turn down the boost. This is rule #1 regarding after market turbo systems.
Give it a rest.
Bill,
You sound a little defensive here. As I stated earlier, I am considering doing a mod to my engine. Perhaps I'm a little too conservative to just jump in blindly. Perhaps my education as an Engineer makes me want to research things a little, so I know what I'm in for. Either way, I'm looking for facts and stats. I see nothing wrong with asking the questions I have, particularly to this (very informed) forum.
The puzzling thing to me is why the SILENCE from Hahn, Werks and DDM on this topic. You would think these gents would be the most informed about installations, and want to be clear about what to expect.
__________________
2006 2.4 Solstice
Envious/Darkside/cloth int.
Limited Slip Diff, Sport suspension
GM Factory black mud guards
Alarm system
Airbag cover decal
Tony's slotted backup light covers
DDM Intercooler
DDM STAGE 2 Supercharger
DDM Stainless Coil Cover
DDM High Flow Catalitic Converter (still in the box)
Wish List
Aftershock side markers
Tony's Stripes
Solo SQR2 dual center exhaust
Norms Center Diffuser style rear fascia, fenders and skirts
Audi style headlights
DDM Backbone
The Hahn boosted Sol in California is a forum member, hes just trying to work things out with Hahn techs before he says anything out in public about them. I guess the techs are on holiday vacations because he hasn't been able to get through to them. Like I said before, I think the issue with his car has to do with our crappy gas and tune, everybody else outside of California able to run the higher gas should be safe.
The puzzling thing to me is why the SILENCE from Hahn, Werks and DDM on this topic. You would think these gents would be the most informed about installations, and want to be clear about what to expect.
Hi King-Oka,
I agree that being informed is imporatant....your doing your homework, just plain smart if you ask me.
I wouldn't put too much into the percieved "SILENCE" from Hahn, Werks & DDM, trust me, no conspiracy of silence going on there....
__________________
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
2007 - 2.4 - Black - Hahn Stage 3, Hahn Hi-Flow CAT, Solo SQR-2, Norm's Finned Diffuser & Fenders, GReddy BOV & PRofec-B Spec-II B/C, Autometer Mech Boost & Electric Oil Temp gauges, DDM Two gauge A-Pillar POD & Powdercoated valve & engine covers, Illuminated WR, JPM Centre Console, Arm Rests & Visor Covers, Stubby Antenna
Team Solstice 2008
Bill,
You sound a little defensive here. As I stated earlier, I am considering doing a mod to my engine. Perhaps I'm a little too conservative to just jump in blindly. Perhaps my education as an Engineer makes me want to research things a little, so I know what I'm in for. Either way, I'm looking for facts and stats. I see nothing wrong with asking the questions I have, particularly to this (very informed) forum.
The puzzling thing to me is why the SILENCE from Hahn, Werks and DDM on this topic. You would think these gents would be the most informed about installations, and want to be clear about what to expect.
I'll let DDM speak for themselves, however among the dozen and a half (maximum) supercharger systems of their design out there, none has reported here, or on their own forum, any preignition, detonation, or audible ping.
And, of course, there have been no catastrophic (or, otherwise) failures.
Jackknife
__________________
Deep, Ebony, Loaded...VIN 2124
DDM Supercharger #6 Stage II Intercooled
Magnaflow Dual Cat-back ... Valentine 1
FE3 sway bar ... Car. Cust. Rests and Pockets
Norm's Dual Rear Fascia ... Visor Decals
Walnut Burl Dash ... Dual Horns
Blacked-out Grills ... Debadged
Boost & A/F gauges ... KappaShield
DDM Pro-Beam and back brace
Well I'll tell you from experience having sold systems in the past and dealing with the forum community that there are ALWAYS extemporaneous circumstances that cause failures. Most of the time it's not the fault of the manufacturer, but being an aftermarket system it's generally assumed and/or portrayed online as if it were.
The real problem lies in overzealous expectations by the vehicle owner. If you want the perfect OEM system then get a factory boosted vehicle. However if you want to go aftermarket then it's to be expected that increasing the performance of the vehicle will decrease the reliability and lifespan by the inverse and exponentially so. Making changes to the system as drastic as doubling the horsepower will also shorten the lifespan of the motor by more than 1/2. Doing so on an already aged motor is even more detrimental to the lifespan of the engine and should be acknowledged by the vehicle owner when installing a system.
It's my personal opinion (that I can verify with engine dyno data) that pushing the LE5 engine to 300 HP (crank) is about the limits of the stock rings. I also know that not having solid control of the complex process of VVT actuation is a MAJOR problem for those of us using lower Octane fuel - especially when you wish to push more than 1.7 pressure ratio.(10-12psi boost).
TOTAL SPECULATION ON MY PART
Just tricking the ECU into thinking it's modifying the cam position while actually leaving cam position static is a simple fix, but it's not a reliable long term solution. As I understand it some aftermarket systems do in fact modify the VVT control and short of a Greddy V-manage piggyback I assume that it's just locking out VVT control. The problem I see with this is that VVT in our ECU is a VERY complex process and it's integrated with the whole operation of the engine.
Having ECU level control of VVT could offer up changes in dynamic compression ratio preventing detonation and in the case of a turbo some spool-up help too.
I don't think that DDM has anything to worry about now with the performance of their system. Only increasing HP and TQ by 50 isn't beyond reason, but when people want to push it further then they will run into the same issues that the Turbo tuners are.
This is probably the foundational issue here - How much do you really need for your car and how much are you willing to risk?
I'm personally taking my own path with all of this (as would be expected) and while I will not be offering a commercial system I'm confident that like with my S-series kit I'll put another 100K miles on my engine all supercharged.
Don't expect too many people to boast about a toasted engine though - most of the time ego gets in the way of disclosure.
__________________
-Adam Chant
SCdyne Performance Engineering "Tune it or lose it!
Well I'll tell you from experience having sold systems in the past and dealing with the forum community that there are ALWAYS extemporaneous circumstances that cause failures. Most of the time it's not the fault of the manufacturer, but being an aftermarket system it's generally assumed and/or portrayed online as if it were.
The real problem lies in overzealous expectations by the vehicle owner. If you want the perfect OEM system then get a factory boosted vehicle. However if you want to go aftermarket then it's to be expected that increasing the performance of the vehicle will decrease the reliability and lifespan by the inverse and exponentially so. Making changes to the system as drastic as doubling the horsepower will also shorten the lifespan of the motor by more than 1/2. Doing so on an already aged motor is even more detrimental to the lifespan of the engine and should be acknowledged by the vehicle owner when installing a system.
It's my personal opinion (that I can verify with engine dyno data) that pushing the LE5 engine to 300 HP (crank) is about the limits of the stock rings. I also know that not having solid control of the complex process of VVT actuation is a MAJOR problem for those of us using lower Octane fuel - especially when you wish to push more than 1.7 pressure ratio.(10-12psi boost).
TOTAL SPECULATION ON MY PART
Just tricking the ECU into thinking it's modifying the cam position while actually leaving cam position static is a simple fix, but it's not a reliable long term solution. As I understand it some aftermarket systems do in fact modify the VVT control and short of a Greddy V-manage piggyback I assume that it's just locking out VVT control. The problem I see with this is that VVT in our ECU is a VERY complex process and it's integrated with the whole operation of the engine.
Having ECU level control of VVT could offer up changes in dynamic compression ratio preventing detonation and in the case of a turbo some spool-up help too.
I don't think that DDM has anything to worry about now with the performance of their system. Only increasing HP and TQ by 50 isn't beyond reason, but when people want to push it further then they will run into the same issues that the Turbo tuners are.
This is probably the foundational issue here - How much do you really need for your car and how much are you willing to risk?
I'm personally taking my own path with all of this (as would be expected) and while I will not be offering a commercial system I'm confident that like with my S-series kit I'll put another 100K miles on my engine all supercharged.
Don't expect too many people to boast about a toasted engine though - most of the time ego gets in the way of disclosure.
Thanks SC - this is the best answer on this thread yet.
The issue I'm struggling with is that the Turbo systems appeared to be flawless acording to this forum two weeks ago. So much so, that GM elected to use the Turbo approach to help them design a faster GXP/Redline offering. So I'm about ready to believe that a turbo kit can give me X more horsepower and still be a reliable daily driver, when suddenly - out of the blue - I learn of a melt down.
Now if it was an isolated case, I could dismiss it entirely, but co-incidentally it happened in my small town. I guess that lead me to start asking questions. I did so, both publically (here on the forum) and privately. Glad I did, because what has come back so far has not been "open sharing dialogue", but rather "postured positioning to protect the players".
As I stated above, your response has been the most useful, and by the way - the most honest.
__________________
2006 2.4 Solstice
Envious/Darkside/cloth int.
Limited Slip Diff, Sport suspension
GM Factory black mud guards
Alarm system
Airbag cover decal
Tony's slotted backup light covers
DDM Intercooler
DDM STAGE 2 Supercharger
DDM Stainless Coil Cover
DDM High Flow Catalitic Converter (still in the box)
Wish List
Aftershock side markers
Tony's Stripes
Solo SQR2 dual center exhaust
Norms Center Diffuser style rear fascia, fenders and skirts
Audi style headlights
DDM Backbone
Bill,
You sound a little defensive here. As I stated earlier, I am considering doing a mod to my engine. Perhaps I'm a little too conservative to just jump in blindly. Perhaps my education as an Engineer makes me want to research things a little, so I know what I'm in for. Either way, I'm looking for facts and stats. I see nothing wrong with asking the questions I have, particularly to this (very informed) forum.
The puzzling thing to me is why the SILENCE from Hahn, Werks and DDM on this topic. You would think these gents would be the most informed about installations, and want to be clear about what to expect.
You are missing the point. Let me reiterate again. Any after-market performance component you add to a stock motor increases the chance of one of the remaining stock components failing. While the OEM components are designed for durability they are only designed for normal driving situations. Performance driving can exceed the capabilities of the OEM components. Often the performance add-ons don't cause the OEM parts to fail, the performance characteristics of the car change causing the owner to drive in a different fashion. People put after market performance components on their vehicles so they may drive their car in a high performance fashion. If you think people install superchargers and turbochargers to enhance their trips to the Piggly-Wiggly you are dead wrong. They do so for the extra kick in the seat on the back road or track.
Here is some advice from my other posts you may have overlooked. I will put it here again as succinct as possible so you can follow along. First when you add an aftermarket Turbo/SC to a naturally aspired motor without lowering the compression pre-detonation is going to be an issue. I don't care who's turbo/SC or who's tune you are using, this will be an issue unless your tuner can deify the laws of physics. The higher the boost, the more problems you will have with predetonation. How much boost you can run on a high compression motor is dependant mainly on what type of gas is available in your area. If you only have 91 octane available I wouldn't run more than 5 or 6 pounds of boost. This advice holds true for both Turbos and Superchargers. You lower the boost on a turbo by controlling the wastegate and on a SC by underdriving the compressor. If you want to run higher boost with lower octane gas, lower the compression with different pistons or a multi-layered head gasket (my Sky has one of these). This advice isn't strictly for the Kappa platform, this holds true for all cars. This advice is based on my experience the 3 dozen or so boosted (SC and Turbo) vehicles I have owned in my lifetime.
If you are truly performing due-diligence you should call Hahn, Werks and DDM to talk to them about their systems rather than making unsubstantiated claims in a forum under the guise of DD. You are assuming that Hahn, Werks and DDM are crooks which is not the case. If you ask them about the caveats surrounding the installation of their systems they will give you an honest answer. You are calling them out to answer to your BS post without having trying to get the information directly from them first. I'm sorry but this is horses**t in my book.
POINT OUT whatever you want - but 100-> to over 200 boosted sols /skys ??? hahaha yuh kiddin right ... ...... ????
we're to believe theres over 200 boosted sols and skys and no failures -
theres maybe a dozen or 2 SC and prolly another 2 dozen turbo'd 2.4 sol/skysPERIOD............no where near " maybe over 200 ".......read that as my guess is less than 50
i am interested and don't appreciate being
censored , or chastised - or being told - hearing ==>>> "GIVE IT A REST !! "- i am very interested in this thread !! and everything ANYONE has to add............fairly clear we need more info /input.............. for a factual glimpse of reality dayum i been wondering what happened to mark's car - lost track thought someone had bought it in fla........
sounds like 4 damaged engines out of prolly closer to 50 total ( imo " maybe over 200" is a ludicris exaggeration) if we're talkin boosted 2.4 sols/skys.........
one in BC
one in CA
one mentioned by (idkfa & solscuba ) prolly boosted sols - marks "silverbullet " - ate rocker ? that i've been wondering about
and the one per bill1966 - broke a pistonring
theres no reason to doubt people posting what they know - we don't need a notary or sworn affidavit to believe the 4 listed damaged engines......
My guestimate based on the number of units Hahn and Werks have claimed to produce.
An enterprising person could take create a poll in the forum to see who has an aftermarket turbo.
Well I'll tell you from experience having sold systems in the past and dealing with the forum community that there are ALWAYS extemporaneous circumstances that cause failures. Most of the time it's not the fault of the manufacturer, but being an aftermarket system it's generally assumed and/or portrayed online as if it were.
The real problem lies in overzealous expectations by the vehicle owner. If you want the perfect OEM system then get a factory bo
...... ???? 
you beef up certain parts and the parts you haven't built out tend to fail quicker.
