To the engine...it's just boost. GM would not have produced over a million vehicles(GTPs, MCSS, Regal GS, Impala SS, Bonneville SSEIs, Cobalts SS, Ion redlines) with an eaton superchargers, if they were too hard on an engine. The V6 3800 came from the factory with 8psi and NO intercooler...the 4-bangers get 12psi and a W2A i/C. The only longevity downfall of a supercharger (Positive displacement & Centrifugal) is the front main bearing sees a little more wear due to the increase in belt loading from the S/C. When I cracked open my 3800 on the GTP with 160k...I saw no increase in wear...I I was spinning that Eaton 90 twice as fast as factory(19,000 rpm & 15 PSI)
Today's PD blowers are self contained and need no adjustments, the internal oil system is good for 100k. The integrated bypass valve keeps the boost off until you drop the hammer. At cruise the blower draw 1/3 of a HP off the crank. Under boost, it does take power to turn the blower...how much depends on too many factors to discuss here.
Turbo's are great...Their fun, they make tons of power. If used properly, they are safe. But contrary to what someone mention earlier, they do not give you "free or recycled" power...They are a restriction to exhaust flow and cylinder scavaging...this also robs power. They generate significant amounts of under the hood heat, this has it's own problems from many different things from melted parts, to cracking/ loosening manifolds. Depending on models, you have oil and /or water system that are tied to the motor and both affect performance and maintenance. Improper shutdowns and or inferior grades of motor oil can cause coking. But then those are some of the things you have to deal with with a turbo motor, especially high performance units.
Basic and simple...the kits I've seen are decent units...some better that other, but that is each owners opinion. life is about compromise and trade-offs...it's the same thing here.
i love your posts !... ... i hate seeing too many factors to discuss here ... as one of my most respected and knowledgeable guys ......... too many factors to discuss is always a bummer........this is how we learn.... ok fine it only draws 1/3 hp while you are not using it..lol... .. but under boost draws what 20-30-40 hp and. thats what i meant needs to make more to break even.......of course too many factors to discuss can be the range of 20-40 hp cost right ?..you could have stated that ..... you have unfair advantage - i don't have the knowledge you have i'm just saying to state draws a third of a hp when not in use and not mention your guesstimate of the expotential multiplication of that number under boost .....sorta unfairly makes me sound like i was wrong...no worries - its like that huh?...lol...
..fair is fair i don't see any turbo guys or turbo vendors speaking up...awww don't make me beg.. hahahaha......
..just the woman building her own....now thats funny..... hilarious....mind boggling nuts
it may escape the rest >> omit an obviously paramount detail (the power the blower uses under boost )..... and dismiss me .....call me the "someone said".....FINE !!!.... .lecture on oh wise and experienced one !..... i still love you..... and okra is a live one- get that sale !...... for me this is just fun..........i was just raggin scoobie....
if i had it to do over ddm is a no brainer........ least ways for okra goals.......
feel free to tell us how the intercooled sc uprade is coming...... and how an ic is advantageous to a sc , since you allude sc doesn't have a turbos heat disadvantage........
yes an intercooler = cooler denser air = more........in the air/fuel/spark equation but if a sc doesn't generate heat ???........... yuh lost me........ and i'm not arguing i just didn't understand...........sounds like a contradiction....... tho i'm sure my grasp is still better than scoobies....... expand on that for all of us..... i doubt i'm the only one
when it comes to my comment - everybody knows turbos are better than a sc....hahahaha........ he was "asking for it" with the better dd and less maintenance malarkey.....
i gotta tell yuh i was just jerking scoobies chain.... ( and had him )......maybe snagged you too ..lol...-> million eatons by gm ....hahahahaha had yuh going !!...please don't spazz over me calling yuh...... on the blower ..lol... i appreciate your passion for your preference and it was an honest answer......
no fair you answering for scoobiedoo..lol... wheres my turbo guys ..... ( too bad werks,rpi, hahn don't participate on the level of DDM ) it'd make for lively debate ....... again kudos for ddm.......
okra is looking for a product and you - ddm are here to answer questions ....i doubt the significance is lost....... i wonder if he realises the value of that...... thats big
if anything i say draws you into sharing info.....educating us ... thanks randy
__________________
BOOsted 2.4
42lb injectors
3" tubes front to back
5-7 boost
trim 50 garrett t3/t4 custom- bare bones pumpking
38mm tial wastegate / bov
custom i/c (BELL)
Werks radiator
aem wideband
gxp exhaust /magna flo - integrated dumptube ( b_faster and R&D automotive
custom manifold (sh**er the skunk )
hi flo cat
HPTUNING - the hard part !!!
JET-HOT 2000
aerologic egt kit
YEAH I DID THAT !
Originally Posted by zzzybil;612748...but under boost draws what 20-30-40 hp and. thats what i meant needs to make more to break even.......of course too many factors to discuss can be the range of 20-40 hp cost right ?..you could have stated that ..... you have unfair advantage - i don't have the knowledge you have [B
i'm just saying[/b] to state draws a third of a hp when not in use and not mention your guesstimate of the expotential multiplication of that number under boost .....sorta unfairly makes me sound like i was wrong...no worries - its like that huh?...lol...
Never enough of a drain when not under boost that the manufacturers thought it necessary to install a clutch like on your a/c. And net result after boost is what we are loooking for, regardless of or inspite of how much it take sto produce - net gain on a factory 3800 is about 40hp at the crank. I've driven old style turboed Buick GNs and modern (but out of production) 3800 s/c versions and I can tell you the s/c is hands down my favorite - absolutely no lag, absolutely no scheduled maintenance. If the belt breaks, as I have had once, no major issue, just 40 less hp until you replace the belt. On a small 2.4, high revving eco the turbo lag is inconsequential, but the concept that a s/c could be installed instead of a turbo and not require an intercooler except for making more hp, intrigues me more and more.
__________________
When more than one friend wants to ride shotgun
No, I do not work for GM or any subsidiary or supplier.
feel free to tell us how the intercooled sc uprade is coming...... and how an ic is advantageous to a sc , since you allude sc doesn't have a turbos heat disadvantage........
yes an intercooler = cooler denser air = more........in the air/fuel/spark equation but if a sc doesn't generate heat ???........... yuh lost me........ and i'm not arguing i just didn't understand...........sounds like a contradiction....... tho i'm sure my grasp is still better than scoobies....... expand on that for all of us..... i doubt i'm the only one
When I talk about heat, I meean the under hood temps, not the Air charge temps... The Turbine housing on a Turbo Gets REAL hot and Radiates the exhaust heat into the surrounding area. Thats why the Power steering on the turbos gets relocated, if I remember some of them melted in the beginning. We had to move it on the S/C system due to Physical space...The blower sets right there. The S/C doesn't add to the engine bay heat significantly like a turbo does b/c it is not connected to the exhaust.
as for the I/C...works the same with a Turbo as it does with super... Like you said AIR/Fuel/Spark.
And I do admire you for tackling what you have done and not throwing in the towel... Top notch girl.
__________________ Randy Carter - Product Manager www.DDMWorks.com
06 Classic Cool: DDMp62 supercharger #0.5b
When I talk about heat, I meean the under hood temps, not the Air charge temps... The Turbine housing on a Turbo Gets REAL hot and Radiates the exhaust heat into the surrounding area.
Heat shields on turbos are a must if they are located in the engine bay. The shields are simplistic in design but do radiate the heat down-wards. The first turbo car I seen had the turbo hung under the rear bumper with lots of charge tubing. Don't see this configuration much anymore. This was from the day where humongous hood scoops were all the rage, it wasn't enough to have the goods, you also had to make sure you advertised them.
The Eaton SCs are nice, my TPC Boxster uses the same compressor. It is a lot more reliable (and quieter for that matter) than the ol GMC conversions (4-71, 6-71, 8-71, etc). I have put 42,000 miles on the car with charger and have not done anything to the charger itself.The TPC auxiliary fuel injector system however, requires constant adjustment.
I have found that the aftermarket turbo on my Sky doesn't really require any additional maintenance other than checking bolts every oil change. One could probably wire up the fasteners aircraft style if they wanted to make the setup maintenance free.
Ahhh.... I see the debate rages on . I've actually had to work the last couple of weeks and haven't had much time to surf the boards.
Do what you like, like what you do.
HP #'s on a dyno do not speak to day to day driving feel. I agree with scdyne, we aren't pushing alot of air with the sc, so reliability/longevity is more easily achieved. It's the instant low end torque of the sc that makes me happy. Definitely makes it feel like you got more cubes under the hood than you do. Very rarely does my foot get anywhere near the floor .
Randy,
Would 'can' you explain/disclose why DDM decided to use a remote mount M62 instead of swapping out the stock composite intake manifold for an LSJ manifold with the M62 mounted on it? Was it a physical issue with hardware locations or a cost prohibitive issue based on availability of LSJ manifolds, etc? It's a matter of discussion on skyroadster is why I ask.
__________________
-Adam Chant
SCdyne Performance Engineering "Tune it or lose it!
TEAM SCSKYSC 2008 I don't know..?
Last edited by scdyne : 12-13-2007 at 08:43 PM.
Reason: justification
Randy,
Would 'can' you explain/disclose why DDM decided to use a remote mount M62 instead of swapping out the stock composite intake manifold for an LSJ manifold with the M62 mounted on it? Was it a physical issue with hardware locations or a cost prohibitive issue based on availability of LSJ manifolds, etc? It's a matter of discussion on skyroadster is why I ask.
cost was a factor, as well as, physical location....if you try to use the LSJ setup, 1) the LSJ eaton is a different bolt pattern, thus you have to use only the gm unit (expensive), #2 availability (only from GM), #3 bolt this up to an LE5 in a kappa, and it will hit the brake booster and firewall., #4 belt routing...LSJ's require the double sided/ribbed belt..not easy to find in mutiple sizes, and Very expensive.
those are the basics...we had more reasons, but those are confidential
__________________ Randy Carter - Product Manager www.DDMWorks.com
06 Classic Cool: DDMp62 supercharger #0.5b
When I talk about heat, I meean the under hood temps, not the Air charge temps... The Turbine housing on a Turbo Gets REAL hot and Radiates the exhaust heat into the surrounding area. Thats why the Power steering on the turbos gets relocated, if I remember some of them melted in the beginning. We had to move it on the S/C system due to Physical space...The blower sets right there. The S/C doesn't add to the engine bay heat significantly like a turbo does b/c it is not connected to the exhaust.
as for the I/C...works the same with a Turbo as it does with super... Like you said AIR/Fuel/Spark.
And I do admire you for tackling what you have done and not throwing in the towel... Top notch girl.
Dang, I was about to clarify this also. Something I was completely positive in answering. I was never trying to say turbos are bad in anyway, shape, or form. As I've said I really did consider going turbo. But one thing is I agree with revman, the s/c kit makes it feel like you have a (as nicole would call it) real motor under the hood. I can put my petal halfway down and be making the same amount of boost as with the pedal all the way down. I like that. I'm not sure how the turbo compares. I've rode in a GXP once and I must say, my car felt much faster even though I know they're relatively the same. Although neither will ever compare to how Nicole's Trans Am feels, even though her car is relatively the same speed.
If any any SC'd Sols in GA would like a friendly run against a Hahn stage II turbo to see if their car feels faster, please let me know. Your favorite beverage is on me (after the friendly competetion of course), win or lose.
__________________
06 Deep Blue
Confirmed Boost Junky!
Hahn Stage II
Anxiously Awaiting a Stage III
If any any SC'd Sols in GA would like a friendly run against a Hahn stage II turbo to see if their car feels faster, please let me know. Your favorite beverage is on me (after the friendly competetion of course), win or lose.
Can't wait to see that happen.
__________________
2006 2.4 Solstice
Envious/Darkside
Limited Slip Diff, Sport suspension
Security system,Airbag decal
DDM Intercooler/coil cover
DDM STAGE 2 Supercharger - now it rocks!
... i hate seeing too many factors to discuss here ...
as one of my most respected and knowledgeable guys ......... too many factors to discuss is always a bummer........this is how we learn.... ok fine it only draws 1/3 hp while you are not using it..lol...
.. but under boost draws what 20-30-40 hp and. thats what i meant needs to make more to break even.......of course too many factors to discuss can be the range of 20-40 hp cost right ?..you could have stated that ..... you have unfair advantage - i don't have the knowledge you have i'm just saying to state draws a third of a hp when not in use and not mention your guesstimate of the expotential multiplication of that number under boost .....sorta unfairly makes me sound like i was wrong...no worries - its like that huh?...lol... 
thanks randy
.
run against a Hahn stage II turbo to see if their car feels faster, please let me know. Your favorite beverage is on me (after the friendly competetion of course), win or lose. 
