You do bring up a good point, fortunately Matt does not have to worry about CARB up in Michigan which allows him some more options than what you have currently living in California. At the end of the day we are here to offer you guys options for making your Solstice more enjoyable, which kit is better for you? That really depends on what criteria you set. If making the absolute highest horsepower on a dyno is your thing, our kits are not for you. We put emphasis on daily driving and where people spend 95% of their time driving. Things like throttle response, drivability and dependability are the most important things to us and what we focus on.
Unfortunately for you, in California your only choice right now is the Naturally Aspirated 2.4L or the GXP, and in your same position I would have probably picked the GXP. I have always liked turbos, they are a lot of fun and I have really enjoyed driving different turbo cars we get in here over the years. A 1.8L Miata with a small GT2554 drives almost like a supercharger, very fun indeed. With the GXP, GM did a good job at minimizing lag inherent with all turbos by using a properly sized turbo, a dual scroll set-up, etc. The aftermarket kits that are out there now have not caught up yet and still continue to use older less expensive turbo's which offer great bang for the buck and are hard to beat for all out power to the wheels(except nitrous, but that is a completely different thread), but give up spool time and throttle response as a compromise. When you look at the dyno plots of a GXP vs. aftermarket it is amazing how much faster the turbo comes in on the GXP.
With your car you will have torque 1000 RPM's sooner than you would have with an aftermarket turbo, pretty impressive, like I said I would have picked the GXP.
To date there are only a few that have experienced our intercooled supercharger set-up, but a Sky Redline owner that recently did, and thought that his car with an intake, exhaust and wastegate mod had no lag, well, thought differently after a test drive. The power on the supercharger hits hard when you floor it, like no turbo ever can. Also consider that the early supercharged kits that are non intercooled, that put down 190-195HP at the wheels are running essentially the same time in the 1/4 mile as a stock GXP putting down approx 25 more HP and you start to see that ultimate horsepower does not always win you the race.
Since the thread was originally about the Mallett vs. the DDM, the Centrifugals are another story all together and really work well on larger displacement V8's, but as you can see from the comparison earlier, the power under the curve on them is not the best. Then again we have done a centrifugal on a 2.0L and it was still more fun than stock.
In the end, hopefully we can supply you with whatever it is that makes you enjoy your car more. Bench racing is meaningless and until you actually put the two cars up against each other you will never know who is really quicker, even then there are so many variables that can change the outcome. What would be cool though, is setting up a drag strip night at Nationals for something like this, hmmmm.......
As my company's name is shown in the dyno graph above, is is safe to say that the concept of 'equal time' would justify a response to your post, Dave?
__________________
Bill Hahn Jr., Hahn RaceCraft, Inc. Home of the World's Quickest and Most Powerful Solstices
First to the 14's, 13's, and 12's in the 1/4 Mile
12.00 @ 117 MPH Street Solstice World Record
Hahn RaceCraft, Inc.
Turbocharging GM's since 1988 http://www.turbosystem.com
As my company's name is shown in the dyno graph above, is is safe to say that the concept of 'equal time' would justify a response to your post, Dave?
I think it's justified since many have pointed out shortcomings (present company included) with Hahn hardware without any response from them directly.
Just remember that ultimately any system can be configured to accommodate any individual's needs unless of course the needs are based on a brand and not the product.
Ford vs. Chevy, Import vs. Domestic, Sky vs. Solstice
My point is just that if the debate goes to Turbo vs. S/C that it quickly becomes a waste of time because it's IMO a matter of brand over product.
If it's Mallett vs. DDM then DDM is the better choice based on Price, Performance and Availability.
__________________
-Adam Chant
SCdyne Performance Engineering "Tune it or lose it!
I think it's justified since many have pointed out shortcomings (present company included) with Hahn hardware without any response from them directly.
Just remember that ultimately any system can be configured to accommodate any individual's needs unless of course the needs are based on a brand and not the product.
Ford vs. Chevy, Import vs. Domestic, Sky vs. Solstice
My point is just that if the debate goes to Turbo vs. S/C that it quickly becomes a waste of time because it's IMO a matter of brand over product.
If it's Mallett vs. DDM then DDM is the better choice based on Price, Performance and Availability.
I completely agree the whole turbo vs. Positive displacement supercharger vs. centrifugal vs. nitrous vs. whatever power adder debate never produces a clear winner, each form of power adder has its own pros and cons. Driving on the street we are not governed by any sanctioning body (other than CARB or other local emissions governing bodies) so it really is up to the driver to pick what is best for their particular driving style, and thankfully there are starting to be more options than ever to pick from out there for the Kappa platform.
[quote=mena661;625175]Actually mine was $28K and I have a 5 yr/100k mile powertrain warranty and it's CARB legal in CA. GM won't fix any supercharger issues under the warranty and they're most likely to void your powertrain warranty if they knew about it. Also, your car would not pass smog in CA unless you removed it. I don't have to remove anything. Like I said, you can't compare a stock car to a modified one. It's apples to oranges.[/QUOTE
I think it's justified since many have pointed out shortcomings (present company included) with Hahn hardware without any response from them directly.
Well then! Perhaps one of you kind folk could make me aware of the location of instances of the "present company's" statements that might justify such a response. Feel free to PM me with same.
__________________
Bill Hahn Jr., Hahn RaceCraft, Inc. Home of the World's Quickest and Most Powerful Solstices
First to the 14's, 13's, and 12's in the 1/4 Mile
12.00 @ 117 MPH Street Solstice World Record
Hahn RaceCraft, Inc.
Turbocharging GM's since 1988 http://www.turbosystem.com
"present company" as in I include myself in pointing out issues with a specific system. NOT intended as one Company (Corporation) saying bad things about Hahn hardware.
It's been observed in this and other threads that as a matter of procedure it's necessary to re-torque hardware on the turbo kits due to heat cycling. This does not seem to be the case with the supercharger systems.
However a few people have in fact pointed out that they did have to adjust the belt on the DDM system and began with troubleshooting leaks.
__________________
-Adam Chant
SCdyne Performance Engineering "Tune it or lose it!
"present company" as in I include myself in pointing out issues with a specific system. NOT intended as one Company (Corporation) saying bad things about Hahn hardware.
It's been observed in this and other threads that as a matter of procedure it's necessary to re-torque hardware on the turbo kits due to heat cycling. This does not seem to be the case with the supercharger systems.
However a few people have in fact pointed out that they did have to adjust the belt on the DDM system and began with troubleshooting leaks.
Thanks for the clarification!
__________________
Bill Hahn Jr., Hahn RaceCraft, Inc. Home of the World's Quickest and Most Powerful Solstices
First to the 14's, 13's, and 12's in the 1/4 Mile
12.00 @ 117 MPH Street Solstice World Record
Hahn RaceCraft, Inc.
Turbocharging GM's since 1988 http://www.turbosystem.com
Took down the dyno, sorry didn't mean to offend anyone. Feel free to post though
Oh, no worries...no offense taken. I'll take a crack at this later in the evening. Thanks!
__________________
Bill Hahn Jr., Hahn RaceCraft, Inc. Home of the World's Quickest and Most Powerful Solstices
First to the 14's, 13's, and 12's in the 1/4 Mile
12.00 @ 117 MPH Street Solstice World Record
Hahn RaceCraft, Inc.
Turbocharging GM's since 1988 http://www.turbosystem.com
Actually mine was $28K and I have a 5 yr/100k mile powertrain warranty and it's CARB legal in CA. GM won't fix any supercharger issues under the warranty and they're most likely to void your powertrain warranty if they knew about it. Also, your car would not pass smog in CA unless you removed it. I don't have to remove anything. Like I said, you can't compare a stock car to a modified one. It's apples to oranges.[/QUOTE
...With the GXP, GM did a good job at minimizing lag inherent with all turbos by using a properly sized turbo, a dual scroll set-up, etc. The aftermarket kits that are out there now have not caught up yet and still continue to use older less expensive turbo's which offer great bang for the buck and are hard to beat for all out power to the wheels(except nitrous, but that is a completely different thread), but give up spool time and throttle response as a compromise. When you look at the dyno plots of a GXP vs. aftermarket it is amazing how much faster the turbo comes in on the GXP. If you look at this post: Dyno numbers for RL - Pontiac Solstice Forum you can scroll down and see a dyno of a GXP vs. and aftermarket turbo kit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave@ddmworks
With your car you will have torque 1000 RPM's sooner than you would have with an aftermarket turbo, pretty impressive, like I said I would have picked the GXP.
This is the post as it originally appeared.
A couple of notes that are MOST relevant:
Speaking only for the product we sell, we are very proud of the Hahn/Mitsubishi turbochargers we use, and will stand firm on the fact that they are indeed contemporary technology. The low inertia, high-efficiency wheel and housing designs they employ are the most modern available. Mitsubishi turbos are the overwhelming choice of OEM manufacturers of turbocharged cars for these same reasons.
When comparing turbochargers, it is inevitable that a much smaller unit will come on boost sooner. What's not being considered in the depiction above are some very amazing aspects:
a. The Hahn/Mitsubishi turbocharger in our Stage II systems is large enough to support up to 400 HP of airflow, leaving immense upward ceiling for future power upgrades. The stock GXP/RL unit is much smaller, with an effective top end of 300 HP. 33% more power potential is a bunch!
b. This one will floor ya...the Hahn/Mitsubishi turbo shown above, making 30-40 more HP at maximum RPM, is doing it at only 8-9 PSI of boost, compared to the GXP/RL's unit running 15-18 PSI to make...less power!*
We would choose no other turbo for this application, and we base that upon over 30 years of turbo experience using EVERYTHING that's ever been available. This unit is bulletproof, responsive, upgradeable, and best of all...very powerful.
For those who really need a 7000 RPM four-cylinder to pull hard at 2000 RPM, get the GXP. Sure, it will run out of steam 1500 RPM before redline, but you'll get that low-end grunt you want! If, instead, you don't mind your power coming in at 3000, and you'd like it to pull like a banshee all the way to redline, then we have some options for you!
(Pirated Thread Disclaimer: I don't wish to invade the space here, but my company's name and product were being discussed, and this my rebuttal. If anyone would like to further discuss this particular subject, I'd heartily suggest a new thread so as to keep this one on its original tack ).
* There's more at play here, including the difference in engine size, but the boost pressure vs. power difference are still extremely demonstrative of the capabilities of the larger Hahn/Mitsubishi unit.
__________________
Bill Hahn Jr., Hahn RaceCraft, Inc. Home of the World's Quickest and Most Powerful Solstices
First to the 14's, 13's, and 12's in the 1/4 Mile
12.00 @ 117 MPH Street Solstice World Record
Hahn RaceCraft, Inc.
Turbocharging GM's since 1988 http://www.turbosystem.com
Last edited by EcoBoost : 01-11-2008 at 09:44 AM.
Reason: no offense taken :)
I'd also like to point out that AS FAR AS I KNOW the Hahn solution (or any aftermarket boost solution for that matter) does not yet take advantage of the VVT control like the OEM turbo does.
Eventually the VVT control will be addressed and that low end rpm short fall (compared to OEM Turbo and the DDM S/C) of the Hahn system can be almost totally negated.
__________________
-Adam Chant
SCdyne Performance Engineering "Tune it or lose it!
2008 show sponsors: Team Solstice 2008, JPM, Wind Restrictor, Werks, Aspis, Norm's Fiberglass, DDM, AfterShock, Universal Studios, Cardomain, Easystreet AirLift, , Parkerracing, Madmods-Motorsports, Scap. To be a sponsor, just pm me.
See madmods in the upcoming Fast & Furious 4.
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