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No Start Issue!

7K views 34 replies 8 participants last post by  raygun 
#1 ·
My 2008 2.4L is having a failure to start issue. It has had the problem off and on of a really slow start (engine turns over very slowly and eventually starts). However, this week the problem changed and I haven't been able to figure it out. Here are the conditions:

1. The battery is fully charged, pretty new (3 months), and test at two different locations.
2. I've checked the grounds in the engine bay and all are good contact.
3. I've swapped out several relays in the fuse box on the run/crank positions.
4. I've done the key security reset procedure 3 times.
5. When the key is turned on, the security light comes on for 4 seconds, then goes off. No other lights work on the dash. Gauge lights, warning lights, etc. The info LED panel reads Solstice, then goes to Service Air Bag.
6. After attempting to start, dash lights go back to the same accept the gauge needles cycle.
7. The car was at a body shop last week for a rear bumper replacement. I assume the battery was unhooked for a while.
8. The day I picked it up it started slowly for a while, then developed the current condition.

Need to note: this car was a rebuild. It was hit in the right front and straightened/repaired before I bought it. I do not believe it was under water, however, it could have been sitting outside for a while. It also did not have a splash shield installed when I got it.

What could be causing this? Are there grounding points I've missed? Is the BCM dead? Any suggestions would be appreciated!
 
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#3 ·
I'm curious about the note in your signature that says: "Water damaged ..." What exactly do you mean by that, when you say it wasn't underwater?
Also, what splash shield was missing?
 
#4 ·
Sometimes when starting, it would take 3-4 seconds from turning the key to the start position to start cranking/turning over. It would start rotating slowly, like it was a not getting much voltage to the starter. Once it started it would run just fine.
 
#5 ·
I think it was outside in the weather. The interior really seemed like it was water damaged. It's possible it was in the dash too. I'm wondering if this got water into the BCM or the connectors and resulted in corrosion or failure.

The splash shield is the "underbody" plastic piece most cars under the engine bay. Maybe the Solstice never had those?
 
#7 ·
If it has "water damage " chances are you have corrosion somewhere in your electrical connections which will take time to develop .At this point your only recourse if that's the problem would be to start disconnecting the connections I would start at the BCM and clean them up with a good electrical contact cleaner and add some insurance with dielectric grease ,this is the common problem with a flood car Good Luck !
 
#9 · (Edited)
(Apologies for the disorganized post - these are just my thoughts as they came to me while considering the problem.)

If it was a security system problem, the light would stay on. It lights up temporarily to show you that the light is working. That is normal.

The OBD2 port is fused. Does your accessory outlet, (aka, the cigarette lighter jack) have power? They share a fuse. I typically just plug in my phone charger and see if the light comes on to check these.

The OBD2 port connects to the ECM through the harness, but power for the port does not, IIRC. I don't have the service manual with me.

When the needles cycle on the cluster, it's a self-check that the cluster is performing. It doesn't have to talk to anything else to do that.

Normally, I'd say all of this sounds like a bad ground, or an intermittent / faulty negative battery connection. Have you looked at the battery terminals (and matching harness connections)? If it has water damage - or even if it didn't - then I could see some corrosion forming around there. BUT, you say you've checked all of the grounds:

1. Negative battery terminal.
2. One on the frame about a foot away from the negative battery terminal. 10mm bolt. (as are all of these)
3. Front of the cylinder head
4. Starter. (This one would make starting slow or just not work at all, but wouldn't cause issue with the cluster or diagnostic port)

The "service air bag" message indicates either a real issue with the air bags, OR a communication issue. For the airbags, this would be the BCM. That could indicate a break in the harness (VERY unlikely), a loose connector on ECM, BCM or cluster, a bad BCM or a disconnected airbag. (The airbag sensor recall issue will trigger the airbag light, but not in my experience a "service airbag" message.)

I suspect that the message is actually coming from the BCM, though, which would indicate that it's (at least mostly) working. :/ Someone else may jump in and correct me here.

Just for clarity: did you clear the message and see if another one pops up on the DIC?

I'd disconnect the BCM harness and check for power and ground. (The service manual will have pinouts.)

There's a big-ass harness connector near and below the engine bay fuse box - about 4" on a side, with a gray cam-lock type retainer - that I'd also check out.

The ECM is on the driver's side in the engine bay, near the windshield washer tank and under the coolant reservoir. Remove and reconnect the 2 or 3 (depends on the year and I don't know the cutoff) Large connectors, check for water, etc., and reconnect them.

But, going back to the OBD2 issue:

If the fuse is good, and you don't have power at the OBD2 port - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're checking the correct pins - then the ECM may be the issue. The ECM is what's on the other end of the harness from the OBD2 connector. HOWEVER, it should still have power, even if the ECM was disconnected. (Though, I haven't verified this recently, just working from memory from four years ago.) (It's also possible - pretty easy, actually - to accidentally push the connector pin receivers back into the connector, with a multimeter probe, so that they will touch the probe but not make a good connection with a scan tool connector.)

If this were my car, I'd start by tracking down the OBD2 issue as it has the fewest number of components involved. Check the ACC fuse - also, make sure that the cable bundle that goes into the bottom of the engine bay fuse box is REALLY connected (I spent a week tracking that one down after an engine swap), remove and reseat ALL fuses and relays, check for power at the cig lighter port.

Do the headlights work? Bright as they should be?

The factory service manual has some really great diagnostic procedures for this kind of thing.
 
#12 ·
I agree with checking the battery terminals and both ends of the cables that connect to each of them.


@raygun : The "Service Airbag" will display with a PPS problem (the subject of the recall).


Really? It’s totally busted on my ‘06. I just get a light, no message on the DIC.


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#14 · (Edited)
UPDATE:
I got the dash issue sorted. It WAS in the fuse box. Apparently a bad connection in one of the main connectors. Most likely caused by me with trying to diagnose the starting issue. Confirmed voltage to the BCM and ECU as well. OBD port is working again. There are no error codes currently.

I checked every relay and fuse in the main fuse box as well as the BCM. Everything was functioning.

Still having the same issue. When I turn the key to start it does nothing. I confirmed there is voltage at the starter. I have not been able to bump(hammer) the starter while turning the ignition. My best guess at this point is that the starter or starter solenoid are bad.
 
#17 ·
I have narrowed down the issue. There is voltage to the starter, as confirmed before.

There is NOT voltage to the starter solenoid wire when the key is turned to Start. I have checked all of the relays and fuses. What else could prevent this from being activated? Something in the BCM? Ignition switch in the column? Is there a neutral safety switch, and where would it be accessed from?
 
#18 ·
Auto or manual?

For manuals, the clutch has to be down, and there’s a switch for that attached to the pedal mechanism.

For autos, I believe it has to be in park, but I’m not certain.

I don’t suppose you have HP tuners?


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#19 · (Edited)
If you have mentioned whether it is an auto or manual I have missed it.
The auto has a neutral and a park switch.
The manual does not have a neutral switch. There is a clutch pedal position sensor.
NOTE: This is a sensor that must be "learned", and not a simple switch.

Does the CRNK relay in the UFB pull in? I would expect you to be able to hear it.

Circuit Description (Key Start)
The ignition switch is turned to the START position
A discrete signal is received by the BCM
The BCM sends a message to the ECM
The ECM confirms neutral, park, or clutch pedal fully depressed, as appropriate.
The ECM supplies 12 volts to the control circuit of the crank relay.
The crank relay supplies 12 volts to the S terminal of the starter solenoid.
 
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#20 ·
Thanks for the sequence, JohnWR! That at least helps me know how to trace the issue back.

It is an automatic, that's why I question if the neutral/park switch could be the issue. It has done some weird things in the past with sticking in park (which I think was the brake pedal switch), as well as some shift issues. I also noticed tonight that the shift indicator lights are not coming on, for Park or Neutral. I'm not sure if they illuminate before the engine is running?

I have confirmed that the CRNK relay works, but I have not confirmed that it is indeed pulling in at start. There are relays "clicking", but I will check this one specifically now to see if it is. I can meter the slots in the UFB for voltage as well.
 
#21 · (Edited)
OK, confirmed there is no voltage (actually, a nominal voltage of 2.04v) at the CRNK relay when the ignition is turned. I take this to mean the signal is not sent by the ECM. This narrows it down to the ECM or before.

There IS voltage at the RUN/CRNK relay, which I think indicates the BCM is giving the all ok signal?

Assuming it is more likely the Park/Neutral switch or a connector than the ECM or BCM themselves, I will start with those.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Does anyone have any knowledge or suggestions on the Neutral Safety Switch? I'm trying to determine the location before I start tearing things apart, but have not found anything so far. I do not have a repair manual.

Apparently there is a P/N switch inside the 5L40E transmission, but this is commonly a redundant switch, not necessarily used in the control circuit.

Does anyone know where the switch is located? Is it on the inside of the console by the gear selector, or on the outside of the transmission under the car?

NEVERMIND: I found it. It is inside the transmission pan!
 
#23 ·
Ouch


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#24 · (Edited)
Have you considered buying a service manual set? It has happy things like pinouts and component locations. I got my for ~$250, 3-4 years ago. It's been invaluable. I got the three-volume, ~2000 page purple set that covers all '07s from eBay. Helm may have original sets in stock, but the last time I checked, they had been out for quite awhile.

In the mean time, you should be able to test the P/N switch without pulling anything apart. The switch connects to the harness (duh) so you should be able to probe the other end - at the ECM or BCM (or transmission controller, if this car has one) - and check for continuity when the car is in park and in drive. I'd try that before tearing into the transmission.

Alternatively, if you're limber, test it at the connector on the transmission while having a helper shift the car.

I haven't tried this as I have a five-speed, but it's essentially what you'll have to do after dropping the pan anyway, without having to drop said pan. After breakfast, I'll pull the manuals out and see if I can find some pinouts and maybe a diagnostic procedure in the FSM.
 
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#25 ·
I’m not sure where to go from here. And I’m out of time. I need to get the car to a shop. Ideally without having it towed.

If I put 12 v to the starter solenoid while turning the key, it should start, right? Is there any reason I shouldn’t do this?
 
#28 ·
I'll second @JohnWR's statement.

If the ECM isn't commanding a start, then shorting the starter won't get it to start, either, as you'll still be missing spark and fuel.

If you decide to try it, though - be very careful. I once temporarily welded a screwdriver between the terminals on the starter, quite accidentally. It was not fun.
 
#29 ·
I would only do this by powering the "S" terminal to operate the solenoid normally, and I would only do it with a remote switch wired to actual terminals.

Like @raygun I have a screwdriver with a chunk missing. It didn't weld, but did turn red hot. "Not fun" is an understatement, as batteries are bombs waiting to go off.

I don't even start cars normally anymore if anyone is within sight of the battery, as I once had one explode.
Got in the truck one morning, turned the key, and heard a whoompf.
The whole top of the battery blew off, and threw acid everywhere.
 
#31 ·
This is exciting !!!!!

I have absolutely no input on your issue, but I love reading all the responses and what information is being shared. I really like the root cause analysis techniques and testing that is being used. This is the type of analysis I do lots of at work.

You are braver than me. I would have stopped at the checking of the grounds and battery connections. Once that was confirmed OK - off it would be towed :)

Keep looking. I think you are getting close.
 
#32 ·
I mentioned HP Tuners because it will show you things like p/n switch and clutch sensor status, start commanded, etc. One of the Tech2 clones will probably provide that, as well, but I haven't spent enough time playing with mine to say for sure. You can do all of that with a meter and a scope, but it's a little more involved.
 
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