GM Announces Solstice Recall [merged] - Pinion Seal Recall - Page 5 - Pontiac Solstice Forum
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post #61 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 08:26 AM
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MobiusPrime : For all those in the past who suspected there were way more diff problems than some people would admit, here is your vindication. for all those who adamantly denied any major issues, here is your wakeup call to join reality. I've noticed the "defenders" of the diff have remained mostly quiet on this thread.
This recall involves a leaky seal. No more, no less.

It looks to me as if GM recognized a seal problem from the beginning of reported problems, and started working, or having Getrag work, on a new design. While that was going on, and until they knew the solution was effective, they replaced seals as they failed. The 2008s got the new seal/yoke design, and it seems that GM is now confident that the redesign was successful. So they issue a recall to get the new parts installed.

If this is not an example of the way things are supposed to work, I don't know what is.

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post #62 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 08:50 AM
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If this is not an example of the way things are supposed to work, I don't know what is.

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post #63 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MobiusPrime View Post
For all those in the past who suspected there were way more diff problems than some people would admit, here is your vindication. for all those who adamantly denied any major issues, here is your wakeup call to join reality. I've noticed the "defenders" of the diff have remained mostly quiet on this thread.
I'm not sure I ever defended the rear diff, but I will point out that, as the old saying goes, "one's perception is their reality". I have no clunk, no whine, no leak. If they can make ONE Solstice in early 2006 with none of these problems in a repeatable manufacturing process, then they can make others. I haven't had time yet to read through this whole thread, but I suspect what we have here is a supplier that had spotty quality. If that is the case, you could say that the design of the Solstice rear diff is sound, but a bad parts supplier compromised that design in some number of cars due to poor quality. Lucklily for me (so far) I haven't had any issues as a result. So, my perception is that that rear diff is just fine.

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post #64 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 12:54 PM
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newman27 : I'm not sure I ever defended the rear diff, but I will point out that, as the old saying goes, "one's perception is their reality". .......
I have been told by several of my mentors that "Perception is not reality, but to an individual, it is far more important."
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misssol : i think by diff problems he is talking about not so much the leaks but the whining and the clunking, which some people here agree with gm by saying they are normal,which they are not----what i would like to see is gm come out and tell the truth and say they added the torque bar to cure the clunk problem and that the diff's that whine could be from running them low on oil instead of insulting people and blowing them off by telling them these obvious problems are normal when now ,by gm finally doing something about them ,is gm's admission that they are not--they actually had the gall to try and tell the arbitraiter at my lemon hearing, that it was normal for a new car to leave puddles of oil
This recall has absolutely nothing to do with the clunking or whining (of differentials), and does not address the leaks caused by vent issues. The fact that the repair now includes the yoke and nut makes it obvious that the problem goes beyond the seal itself, and explains why just replacing the seals did not always solve the problem.

I think it is also important to realize that there are a variety of issues with the differential, and a variety of causes for the symptoms that various people have seen.

There have been at least two varieties of clunk, one under load, and one not. The torque bar is certainly in response to the first, but is unlikely to have any effect on the second. My car exhibits the second clunk. I won't say that I like it, but I know enough about mechanical systems to understand that it is not harmful, and is not a sign of troubles to come.

Whine can certainly be caused by lack of oil, but have all of those who complain about a whine had serious enough leaks that they ignored for long enough to drop the oil level sufficiently to cause damage ? I don't think so. All gearboxes whine. Metal to metal contact causes it, although it is usually at a low enough volume that you cannot hear it. The design of the Kappa makes whine more noticeable at a lower level. That said, just because whine is normal does not mean that all whines are normal. Some are an indicator of problems, some are not. Someone has to make the judgement about which is which, and sometimes they may get it wrong.

Like whines, leaks can be normal under some circumstances. I won't try to understand what was said at your arbitration, as I was not there and have not read a transcript. Taking statements out of context is rarely a good idea.

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post #65 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 01:08 PM
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normal: of or pertaining to the norm or average.
I have neither the whine nor clunk. If however, these are present in half of the differentials out there, then they are, by definition, "normal."

Now, are they desired? Designed? Proper? Well, those are different questions.

"Normal" has a meaning. Left-handedness is not "normal." (I _am_ a southpaw.) Obesity in America _is_ now "normal" (unfortunately).

Semantic rant over. We return you to your discussion of the pending recall.

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post #66 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:07 PM
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Chemist : Quote: normal: of or pertaining to the norm or average.

I have neither the whine nor clunk. If however, these are present in half of the differentials out there, then they are, by definition, "normal."

Now, are they desired? Designed? Proper? Well, those are different questions.

"Normal" has a meaning. Left-handedness is not "normal." (I _am_ a southpaw.) Obesity in America _is_ now "normal" (unfortunately).

Semantic rant over. We return you to your discussion of the pending recall.
I think that in the discussion of "normal" behavior for a mechanical system we should use Merriam-Webster's second (or its medical dictionary's first) definition:
2a: according with, constituting, or not deviating from, a norm, rule, or principle
2b: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern

It does not matter what proportion of examples exhibits the behavior, but whether the behavior conforms to the design standard of the system in question.

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post #67 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Small Dealer View Post
Take a look at it again.

It says, "GM will provide reimbursement to owners for repairs completed on or before ten days after the owner mailing is completed,..."

What that means is that if an owner pays for a repair, similar to the recall repair, out of their own pocket, they will be reimbursed. But only if the repair is completed before the 10th day after notification of the recall.

Doesn't set any time limits on the repair being done for no charge by a Pontiac dealership under the terms and procedures of the recall when finally announced.

This reimbursement policy, window and decloration is set forth as part of the changes brought about in recalls by the TREAD Act. Which was passed in the wake of the Ford Explorer tires situations.



Also, everyone keep in mind, there is no actual recall yet. Only the announcement of a future action. Nothing will show up for anyones VIN if it is run by a dealership or even a call to Pontiac Customer Assistance.

Regulations require a manufacturer to notify the NHTSA within a specific amount of time, once they decide to conduct a recall. Even if the manufacturer will not be ready for a time to announce and perform the recall. The NHTSA posts that information in their system, where it is easily picked up by the media. Hence the December 21st story for a recall coming months in the future.
I guess I don't understand your post - I have had no problems with my 2006NA- without LS diff. - If I get a recall notice in February and cannot get in to get it fixed till May will I have to pay or will it be covered??

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post #68 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Chemist View Post
I have neither the whine nor clunk. If however, these are present in half of the differentials out there, then they are, by definition, "normal."

Now, are they desired? Designed? Proper? Well, those are different questions.

"Normal" has a meaning. Left-handedness is not "normal." (I _am_ a southpaw.) Obesity in America _is_ now "normal" (unfortunately).

Semantic rant over. We return you to your discussion of the pending recall.
Yep, Chemist has it. Normal, and right are not the same thing.

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post #69 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 06:22 PM
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I guess I don't understand your post - I have had no problems with my 2006NA- without LS diff. - If I get a recall notice in February and cannot get in to get it fixed till May will I have to pay or will it be covered??

Ron
He is saying you will have it covered. That the 10 days is for reimbursement of those who paid for it themselves.

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post #70 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 07:03 PM
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I think that in the discussion of "normal" behavior for a mechanical system we should use Merriam-Webster's second (or its medical dictionary's first) definition:
2a: according with, constituting, or not deviating from, a norm, rule, or principle
2b: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern

It does not matter what proportion of examples exhibits the behavior, but whether the behavior conforms to the design standard of the system in question.
2a would seem to be in line with my prior definition. The latter does lend itself to a more liberal use. As in, "normal" behavior is that which we expect to observe (based on prior experience). If we have owned other cars that do not whine or clunk, we do not expect this one to. When it does, we classify the behavior as "abnormal."

I would still offer the (rhetorical, granted) argument (not fight, but argument ) that if we owned 12 Solstices and they all whined and clunked, we would then classify that behavior as "normal" (for the Solstice), regardless of which of the definitions proffered we chose to use.

Again, I do not fight with you. I'm simply enjoying the discussion.

I now retreat to watch some football. Enjoy the evening.

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post #71 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 08:14 AM
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I agree with those who said they'd rather let sleeping dogs lie. Given some of the stories we've heard about botched repairs I'm more worried about messing things up when nothing is wrong. We won't know all the details until the letters go out in Feb. but it might end up a visual inspection and repair only if leaks are spotted. Most of us around here already keep a close eye on the rear for leaks.

I've never heard of a recall with a 10 days limit so not sure about that I was actually hoping that having this on record might help those who spring a leak later out of warranty

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post #72 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 08:20 AM
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I agree with those who said they'd rather let sleeping dogs lie. Given some of the stories we've heard about botched repairs I'm more worried about messing things up when nothing is wrong. We won't know all the details until the letters go out in Feb. but it might end up a visual inspection and repair only if leaks are spotted. Most of us around here already keep a close eye on the rear for leaks.

I've never heard of a recall with a 10 days limit so not sure about that I was actually hoping that having this on record might help those who spring a leak later out of warranty
mceb ... reread this portion from Small Dealer:

Quote:
It says, "GM will provide reimbursement to owners for repairs completed on or before ten days after the owner mailing is completed,..."

What that means is that if an owner pays for a repair, similar to the recall repair, out of their own pocket, they will be reimbursed. But only if the repair is completed before the 10th day after notification of the recall.

Doesn't set any time limits on the repair being done for no charge by a Pontiac dealership under the terms and procedures of the recall when finally announced.

Somehow we need to stop perpetuating this misconception.

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post #73 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 08:29 AM
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mceb ... reread this portion from Small Dealer:

Somehow we need to stop perpetuating this misconception.
Ahhhh thanks, 10 days is only for reimbursement on older repairs paid out of pocket. That makes more sense, thanks

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post #74 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 10:59 AM
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Some "problems" are problems, and some are just things that people don't like. It would be interesting to see how you would deal with this situation as the seller who knew what was actually going on.

We agree, both in general principle and in the enjoyment of a good debate.

I will add that if our 12 Solstices all did something that was evidence of a malfunction, and not just a characteristic, for example if they all had leaking pinion seals, it would not be "normal", as it would not conform to the standard that "gearboxes should not leak at their pinion seals".
Touche!

I yield the field.

As a teacher, I will sometimes give work that no one in the class can perform. At whose door shall I lay the blame, theirs or mine? The fault is most often mine in this instance. While it may be possible that all simply to apply what was (rightly) given them, the more plausible explanation is that they were not given the correct tools. If I reteach and retrain and they fail again to "meet the standard", I then can place the onus on them.

Now,... differentials do NOT "normally" leak, so our problem was not normal and GM issued a recall. Their motives are secondary to their actions, IMO.

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Last edited by Chemist; 12-24-2007 at 11:18 AM.
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post #75 of 272 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 11:58 AM
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We have all dicussed this issue way too many times. We all have thoughts one way or the other blaming GM or not blaming GM etc, but I'm not going to go down that road again. So, all I'm going to say on this topic is......

IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME !!!!!

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