No Start Issue! - Page 2 - Pontiac Solstice Forum
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-02-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Silver Fox View Post
The message shows on an '06 as well ... at least it did on mine before I had the recall done.
Weird. I have the "passenger airbag off" light constantly on, but I've not seen a message on the DIC. It might be time to open up the dash again. A lot of stuff got moved around when I installed the Sky dash; it's possible that I just didn't properly reconnect the passenger airbag.

(Which would be scary if I ever had passengers.)

Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, RPM Stage 2, Solocatless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , Stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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I have narrowed down the issue. There is voltage to the starter, as confirmed before.

There is NOT voltage to the starter solenoid wire when the key is turned to Start. I have checked all of the relays and fuses. What else could prevent this from being activated? Something in the BCM? Ignition switch in the column? Is there a neutral safety switch, and where would it be accessed from?

2006 2.4L
Water damaged from an insurance sale.
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 06:36 PM
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Auto or manual?

For manuals, the clutch has to be down, and thereís a switch for that attached to the pedal mechanism.

For autos, I believe it has to be in park, but Iím not certain.

I donít suppose you have HP tuners?


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Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, RPM Stage 2, Solocatless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , Stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 06:50 PM
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If you have mentioned whether it is an auto or manual I have missed it.
The auto has a neutral and a park switch.
The manual does not have a neutral switch. There is a clutch pedal position sensor.
NOTE: This is a sensor that must be "learned", and not a simple switch.

Does the CRNK relay in the UFB pull in? I would expect you to be able to hear it.

Circuit Description (Key Start)
The ignition switch is turned to the START position
A discrete signal is received by the BCM
The BCM sends a message to the ECM
The ECM confirms neutral, park, or clutch pedal fully depressed, as appropriate.
The ECM supplies 12 volts to the control circuit of the crank relay.
The crank relay supplies 12 volts to the S terminal of the starter solenoid.
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Last edited by JohnWR; 01-05-2019 at 06:53 PM.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnWR View Post
If you have mentioned whether it is an auto or manual I have missed it.
The auto has a neutral and a park switch.
The manual does not have a neutral switch. There is a clutch pedal position sensor.
NOTE: This is a sensor that must be "learned", and not a simple switch.

Does the CRNK relay in the UFB pull in? I would expect you to be able to hear it.

Circuit Description (Key Start)
The ignition switch is turned to the START position
A discrete signal is received by the BCM
The BCM sends a message to the ECM
The ECM confirms neutral, park, or clutch pedal fully depressed, as appropriate.
The ECM supplies 12 volts to the control circuit of the crank relay.
The crank relay supplies 12 volts to the S terminal of the starter solenoid.
Thanks for the sequence, JohnWR! That at least helps me know how to trace the issue back.

It is an automatic, that's why I question if the neutral/park switch could be the issue. It has done some weird things in the past with sticking in park (which I think was the brake pedal switch), as well as some shift issues. I also noticed tonight that the shift indicator lights are not coming on, for Park or Neutral. I'm not sure if they illuminate before the engine is running?

I have confirmed that the CRNK relay works, but I have not confirmed that it is indeed pulling in at start. There are relays "clicking", but I will check this one specifically now to see if it is. I can meter the slots in the UFB for voltage as well.

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Water damaged from an insurance sale.
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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OK, confirmed there is no voltage (actually, a nominal voltage of 2.04v) at the CRNK relay when the ignition is turned. I take this to mean the signal is not sent by the ECM. This narrows it down to the ECM or before.

There IS voltage at the RUN/CRNK relay, which I think indicates the BCM is giving the all ok signal?

Assuming it is more likely the Park/Neutral switch or a connector than the ECM or BCM themselves, I will start with those.

2006 2.4L
Water damaged from an insurance sale.

Last edited by fullytweaked; 01-05-2019 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Additional info
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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Does anyone have any knowledge or suggestions on the Neutral Safety Switch? I'm trying to determine the location before I start tearing things apart, but have not found anything so far. I do not have a repair manual.

Apparently there is a P/N switch inside the 5L40E transmission, but this is commonly a redundant switch, not necessarily used in the control circuit.

Does anyone know where the switch is located? Is it on the inside of the console by the gear selector, or on the outside of the transmission under the car?

NEVERMIND: I found it. It is inside the transmission pan!

2006 2.4L
Water damaged from an insurance sale.

Last edited by fullytweaked; 01-06-2019 at 10:15 PM. Reason: New Info
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-06-2019, 10:30 PM
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Ouch


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Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, RPM Stage 2, Solocatless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , Stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-07-2019, 06:54 AM
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Have you considered buying a service manual set? It has happy things like pinouts and component locations. I got my for ~$250, 3-4 years ago. It's been invaluable. I got the three-volume, ~2000 page purple set that covers all '07s from eBay. Helm may have original sets in stock, but the last time I checked, they had been out for quite awhile.

In the mean time, you should be able to test the P/N switch without pulling anything apart. The switch connects to the harness (duh) so you should be able to probe the other end - at the ECM or BCM (or transmission controller, if this car has one) - and check for continuity when the car is in park and in drive. I'd try that before tearing into the transmission.

Alternatively, if you're limber, test it at the connector on the transmission while having a helper shift the car.

I haven't tried this as I have a five-speed, but it's essentially what you'll have to do after dropping the pan anyway, without having to drop said pan. After breakfast, I'll pull the manuals out and see if I can find some pinouts and maybe a diagnostic procedure in the FSM.
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Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, RPM Stage 2, Solocatless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , Stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces

Last edited by raygun; 01-07-2019 at 07:09 AM.
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-09-2019, 12:30 AM Thread Starter
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I’m not sure where to go from here. And I’m out of time. I need to get the car to a shop. Ideally without having it towed.

If I put 12 v to the starter solenoid while turning the key, it should start, right? Is there any reason I shouldn’t do this?

2006 2.4L
Water damaged from an insurance sale.
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-09-2019, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullytweaked View Post
Iím not sure where to go from here. And Iím out of time. I need to get the car to a shop. Ideally without having it towed.

If I put 12 v to the starter solenoid while turning the key, it should start, right? Is there any reason I shouldnít do this?
I did this one time on my truck wasnt a Solstice. Put the key in the run position and used the truck battery. Hooked it to the battery with a jumper cable then touched it to the starter. Fired right up
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-09-2019, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullytweaked View Post
Iím not sure where to go from here. And Iím out of time. I need to get the car to a shop. Ideally without having it towed.

If I put 12 v to the starter solenoid while turning the key, it should start, right? Is there any reason I shouldnít do this?
Whether it will start depends on why the starter isn't working. If the ignition circuit isn't getting power the engine still won't start.

I would do something other than stick a bare wire on the terminal, and you should really run something into the car with a switch of some kind. You want to minimize the chance of shorting something out and, if it does start, and you do drive it to the shop, you will want a way to re-start it easily if it dies on the road.

Beyond that, and making sure the transmission really is in neutral or park, I don't see any reason to not try it.

John
Lexington, KY
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-09-2019, 08:56 AM
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I'll second @JohnWR's statement.

If the ECM isn't commanding a start, then shorting the starter won't get it to start, either, as you'll still be missing spark and fuel.

If you decide to try it, though - be very careful. I once temporarily welded a screwdriver between the terminals on the starter, quite accidentally. It was not fun.

Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, RPM Stage 2, Solocatless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , Stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-09-2019, 09:05 AM
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I would only do this by powering the "S" terminal to operate the solenoid normally, and I would only do it with a remote switch wired to actual terminals.

Like @raygun I have a screwdriver with a chunk missing. It didn't weld, but did turn red hot. "Not fun" is an understatement, as batteries are bombs waiting to go off.

I don't even start cars normally anymore if anyone is within sight of the battery, as I once had one explode.
Got in the truck one morning, turned the key, and heard a whoompf.
The whole top of the battery blew off, and threw acid everywhere.

John
Lexington, KY
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-09-2019, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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That is my plan, to create a circuit with a momentary switch in the car. Definitely not going to short the terminals. (Not that you can even reach them without taking the intake manifold off.)
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