Fidanza Flywheel - Page 2 - Pontiac Solstice Forum
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post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-26-2006, 10:35 PM
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a flywheel, by definition, is an "energy storage device", that is, it stores its energy by rotating. when you accelerate, the lighter mass makes it easier for the engine to spool up. when you brake (in gear), it places less stress on your drivetrain becasue there is less weight to stop. like light wheels vs heavy wheels, and big rotors vs small ones.

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A few mods...
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post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js_euler
It's like reducing the weight of the car in a very leveraged way (pun intended). So your power/weight goes positive, even though your hp and torque remain unchanged. Same effect as a lightened driveshaft, saving that rotating weight (mass).

You're not understanding the entire principal of what a flywheel does. It's not just a device used for the starter. Adding a lightened flywheel to ANY application will NOT automatically give you better performance across the board. You WILL gain top-end acceleration, but at the expense of low-end torque.

Like I said before, General Motors doesn't waste 26 pounds of steel for absolutely no reason at all. There IS a purpose to this. If you want to insist that you know what you're talking about, and that everyone should get one, then go ahead. I'm simply stating that you need to consider what the uses of this are with your application. If you live in the city, and you hit a stop light every 100 meters, this is NOT a modification for you. If you live in the suburbs, or you spend lots of time on the highway, then this IS the modification for you. I'm not trying to disuade anyone from buying it... I just want to dispell the myth that many passer-bys on here will think that... it'll improve the performance of their car throughout the entire RPM range.

Only reason why I'm being adamant about this is because this motor is a 4 cyl. It NEEDs as much low-end torque as it can get. The weight of the flywheel helps the motor build up torque through momentum.

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post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 08:12 AM
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A lightened flywheel will have positive and negative effects. It will allow more HP to reach the rear wheels (less parasitic effect). It will also decrease the life of internal engine components (like the crank shaft) and it can turn your car into a "bucking Bronco" when you wind the engine up and then let off the gas. I would not want to guinea pig this mod but if not alot of time was put into the engineering of the stock flywheel (probably not), I could see a carefully designed and matched aftermarket flywheel improving the stock engine to a degree.
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post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 12:53 PM
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Thanks to werks we know the stock flywheel is 21 lbs.

I was watching an episode of Sports Car Revolution in which they were building up an Acura RSX-S car. Moving to a Fidanza flywheel they freed up ~12HP at the top end. This was after some other mods first though like cams, intake, exhaust.









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post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentil
Thanks to werks we know the stock flywheel is 21 lbs.

I was watching an episode of Sports Car Revolution in which they were building up an Acura RSX-S car. Moving to a Fidanza flywheel they freed up ~12HP at the top end. This was after some other mods first though like cams, intake, exhaust.

Yeah, I saw that... they were building a track car. Their goal was something that would be very competetive in SCCA racing.

The cams, intake and exhuast were all done at different times and had individual dyno results.


From their web site: (removed anything not having to do with the Acura)

http://www.sportscarrevolution.com/episodeguide.htm

Quote:
Episode Six
Does a cat back exhaust really deliver the goods? The answer is revealed amid controversy we did not expect.

Episode Seven
Could a Mugen air box actually make horsepower. You may be surprised.

Episode Eight
Would you rip the engine out of a brand new Acura? We do as a part of the quest for more power.

Episode Nine
Cam shafts make power when properly applied. Just how to do that in a high revving, high tech v-tech is discussed in detail. 8800 RPM anyone?

Episode Ten
If you have a limited slip, does that mean you take a partial fall? We install a Mugen piece in the hope that an LSD will make for a shorter trip around the track.

Episode Eleven
Clutching at straws, we seek more performance from the Acura with a new pressure plate, clutch disc and a very light flywheel from TODA.

They did a dyno on the car after every show to show the improvements.

The Flywheel modifications were combined with some slightly adjusted tuning. They DID increase horsepower by replacing the flywheel. The horsepower gained was peak HP at around 8,000 rpms, but like I mentioned, it was at the expense of some low-end grunt.

But they were building this car as an SCCA track car. Not as a street machine.

They also hurt their acceleration when they went to larger disc brakes. This whole project was done more as a teaching tool for ricers. It was meant to dispel all of the typical ricer mods that people do on their cars. They made it a point to show that by going with larger diameter rotors, that it actually hurt the acceleration of the car. The point being that, unless you actually NEED the additional braking surface (for racing), then don't do this on your street car because you're going to actually go slower...

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post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 02:19 PM
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Yeah, it was defintely a very interesting series with the RSX-S buildup.









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post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 02:46 PM
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What channel is Sports Car Revolution on? Speed Vision?
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post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 04:24 PM
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I guess I'm being insistent

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82-T/A
You're not understanding the entire principal of what a flywheel does. It's not just a device used for the starter.

Like I said before, General Motors doesn't waste 26 pounds of steel for absolutely no reason at all. There IS a purpose to this. If you want to insist that you know what you're talking about, and that everyone should get one, then go ahead.

Only reason why I'm being adamant about this is because this motor is a 4 cyl. It NEEDs as much low-end torque as it can get. The weight of the flywheel helps the motor build up torque through momentum.
The discussion was about performance gains from lightened flywheels, about which I opined. I think I actually DO understand most of the principles behind the flywheel. For instance, though I did not mention the dampening characteristics of a flywheel, I am not wholly ignorant of that function. I never even mentioned the role of the flywheel as regards the starter. And I'm not even close to "insisting" anything. I have not advocated that anyone get a lightened flywheel, let alone "insisting . . .that everyone should get one."

There, that about covers it.

Now, for the record, here's what I think (not insisting anything)

General Motors put a 26 pound flywheel on the back end of that motor to:
- provide an interface to the clutch
- dampen the operation of the motor (that whole noise/vibration thing)
- have a handy place to put a gear ring for the starter

And I still believe that hp and torque are NOT a function of the flywheel weight.

Let's try to be reasonable and accurate in our replies, shall we?

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post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-27-2006, 09:47 PM
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I have a Fidanza flywheel on my current car.
It is a pontiac Vibe.
It has a 1.8 liter motor with an aftermarket turbo kit on it. I run between 200whp and 250whp on a 2700lb fwd car.
I got the lighter flywheel when I decided to put on a beefier clutch.

Here are my takes:
On the bad side, it is easier to stall in 1st gear. I believe there is some truth about loosing low end torque. It takes some getting used to, but everytime someone drives my car, they usually stall in 1st.

The engine feels whispy. In neutrall , it obviously revs quicker. It also drops its revs quicker too. It makes the car feel lighter over all.

Because the revs drop quicker, it just about forces you to shift faster, you feel like you are in a fast forward mode. The good side to this, is that you can shift with your foot on the throttle more, and your clutch will hold the power. This is a big benefit to me as the turbo is making lots of torque and hp, which the stock clutch had trouble with. The lighter flywheel is nicer to your clutch in otherwords.
Also, because the turbo needs load to spool faster, the lighter flywheel caused the turbo to spool at a slightly higher rpm, but because the revs are quicker, the lag time is identical.

Overall, I cant help but think that just as my forged wheel lightened the rotating mass, so did lightening the flywheel, in which the end result is a faster, nimbler car.
In retrospect, I would spend the money elsewhere. The worse drivability in first gear is not worth the gains. I already have a turbo, it makes power enough. I will not do this mod on my Sol when I get it.
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post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-30-2006, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js_euler
And I still believe that hp and torque are NOT a function of the flywheel weight.

Let's try to be reasonable and accurate in our replies, shall we?
I don't want to be mean, but, have you ever installed or replaced a flywheel? And have you ever gone with a lighter flywheel?

It's ok to offer advice, but if you've never actually used what you're talking about, then why are you arguing about it?


By the way, the flywheel is not a dampening device. It CAN be used as a balancing device IF the motor is externally balanced.

The device that gets installed on a car to eliminate noise and vibrations is the harmonic balancer which goes on the front of the crank.

The Ecotec motor has balancing shafts which are installed to help internally balance the motor and reduce the negative torque effects of the rotating assembly. They spin counter to the rotation of the crank and cams.

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post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-30-2006, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js_euler
And I still believe that hp and torque are NOT a function of the flywheel weight.
You are correct, they are not. But..... but it is a function of how much of the engine's HP and torque is transfered to the rear wheels under acceleration.

HarvesterUT is correct in that a flywheel is an energy storage device. Accelerating a flywheel requires a certain amount of energy. That energy cannot be transfered to the rear wheels. A lighter flywheel absorbs less of the energy and allows more to go though to the rear wheels.

But there is no free lunch. Since the lighter flywheel takes less energy to accelerate it also stores less energy and it requires less resistance to decelerate the flywheel. That is the stalling at takeoff that faultline experiences. And why the engine revs drop faster.

Factory flywheel designs are heavy to smooth out the power pulses especially at lower RPMs and make it easier for the "average" drive to take off from a stop light without stalling the car or having to use excessive revs. With a heaver flywheel the engine decelerates slower allowing smoother shifting (up and down).

Because of gearing (torque multiplication) the effects of a lighter flywheel are much more noticeable in the lower gears.

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post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-30-2006, 10:52 AM
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Every sports car I have ever own has had the factory flywheel removed in place of a lighter one. If you want true heel/toe performance this is the way to go. ECU tuning can greatly benefit after the swap.
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post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-30-2006, 01:58 PM
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Well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBJay
Accelerating a flywheel requires a certain amount of energy. That energy cannot be transfered to the rear wheels. A lighter flywheel absorbs less of the energy and allows more to go though to the rear wheels.

But there is no free lunch. Since the lighter flywheel takes less energy to accelerate it also stores less energy and it requires less resistance to decelerate the flywheel. That is the stalling at takeoff that faultline experiences. And why the engine revs drop faster.

Factory flywheel designs are heavy to smooth out the power pulses especially at lower RPMs and make it easier for the "average" drive to take off from a stop light without stalling the car or having to use excessive revs. With a heaver flywheel the engine decelerates slower allowing smoother shifting (up and down).

Because of gearing (torque multiplication) the effects of a lighter flywheel are much more noticeable in the lower gears.
No argument here, LBJay, and well put.

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post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-30-2006, 03:41 PM
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Having throttle by wire with ECU controls on it could this possibly help the stalling issues with a lighter clutch? Say if the ECU is designed to keep the RPM's from dropping to low to quickly when between gear shifts?









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post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 01-30-2006, 04:08 PM
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OK. So if you had to choose between only making one of the following 2 mods, which would you choose and why?

1. Lightweight flywheel (stock, 23lbs - lightweight 9.5lbs) = -11.5 lbs rotational weight

vs.

2. Lightweight wheels (stock, 23.6 lbs - BBS RGR, 10 lb) x 4 each = -54.4 lbs unsprung weight

Obviously both these mods can be done, but let's say a guy only wants to spend enough money to do one of these mods. Which one would you do?

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