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UGGHH, introduced air into the cooling system

22K views 148 replies 12 participants last post by  laser411 
#1 ·
Hello all,

So my low coolant light came on yesterday and I filled it and now my car is overheating. I am currently stuck at work (I limped it here).

I have a set of sockets and pliers and other tools as well. As well as a decently steep hill I can park on. Now that I have ****ed up and introduced air, what is the best way for me to correct this without getting towed to a shop?:(
 
#2 · (Edited)
GXP or NA?

I’d be hesitant to try this on the side of the road. If you had an air compressor and a vacuum bleeder tool like an AirLift, it’s easy to bleed the system. But, you may try the DDM method.

Basically, you disconnect the coolant line that goes into the head. Front of the engine, top drivers side of the head, connection points up and down. It’s a fairly small hose.

With that disconnected, remove the 10mm bolt below the reservoir that holds it to the bracket and disconnect the coolant level sensor that plugs into the reservoir. Fill the reservoir, the lift it up so that the coolant level is higher than the top of the engine. Coolant will (quickly) start leaking or gushing out of the head where you disconnected the hose.

Put the hose back on, lower the reservoir, reattach everything and run it for a bit, keeping an eye or temp and coolant level. When reattaching everything, try to keep the reservoir as high as possible until the hose is reattached. If the reservoir isn't the highest point in the coolant circuit, it'll suck air in. (Hooray, physics.) This is just an overly-wordy way of saying that water runs downhill.

This can be aided by squeezing the radiator hose with your hand a lot, or so it has been said. Obviously, don’t get your hand caught up in the belts or fan.

It helps if you have the heater on full blast while doing these things.

I had limited success with this method, but it’s probably the easiest thing to try without access to a shop.

Note: if you have a GXP, there is a TSB regarding coolant filling. There are a pair of check valves that need to be inserted in the coolant hoses. Available from GM, but I had to order mine as no one had them in stock.

Here’s the video on the DDM method:

https://youtu.be/YF5Ka4oeCxA

Hopefully goes without saying, but never open the reservoir when the engine is hot. It is under pressure and will spew ~5-10 feet in the air and give you severe burns.

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#3 · (Edited)
 

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#5 ·
That should work. Many O'Reilly autoparts stores will also "loan" you a similar tool. Basically, you buy it and get a full refund when you return it.

The DDM Video is for a GXP.

Good job with the string.

I'll reiterate that many people have had good results with this method. It didn't entirely work for me, but apparently you *may* have to do it a few times.

Good luck!
 
#7 ·
Good luck!

When you button it up, I’d recommend just driving it around the block a few times in case it stays overheating again.


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#9 ·
I have the valves but haven't noticed that noise. Hmmm...

Where is the noise coming from? Did you put all of the clamps back on?

Is the temp stable or still overheating?
 
#10 · (Edited)
It was sitting at 205 and didn't seem to go any higher but I let off to keep from puking more coolant as I tried to fill it above both hoses. Clamps are back on and I cannot tell where that noise is fully coming from. It's very rhythmic and pretty predictable. Where are the valves? Do you have a picture?

Also, I want to be fully clear and say that the system was opened while warm/hot (after sitting for 5 min) and, in hindsight, it was obvious that it sucked air in.
 
#13 ·
The coolant level is WAY too high in that video. The level should be at, or just above, the molding join half way up the container.

The sound seems to be coming from the return hose bubbling steam through the coolant.
 
#11 ·
One of the valves is in that hose going into the head. The other is in the small hose going into the radiator. They resemble welding jets.




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#12 ·
#14 · (Edited)
Shouldn't the pressure just puke out the excess and then pull a vacuum?

Should there be steam bubbles?

I just ran the car for about 6 minutes at 2500rpm and then idle for 3 minutes and it kinda sat at about 220 degrees in 85-90 degree weather (in the sun). What is the normal?

Does it make a difference that my blower is not currently functional? will that prevent the heater core valve from opening?
 
#15 · (Edited)
220Âş is a bit high. Mine idles a little under 200Âş in our wonderful Dallas weather. 220Âş won't destroy your engine, but it may get hotter when you start driving around and put load on the engine. (But, it might not!)

Even if the blower isn't working - btw, that's a common problem with an easy fix that costs about $30 and takes half an hour - having the HVAC controls set to full heat and fan on should do the trick.

I suspect that the bubbles and gurgling you're seeing are due to more air pockets, but that is just a guess. If it's running well enough to get it home, do so. Get a vacuum tool and bleed the system that way as it's pretty fool-proof. If you don't want to burn $100 on a tool you'll likely use twice, ever, just go borrow one from O'Reilly. Note that I also had to put a vacuum cap on the overflow outlet on the reservoir to pull a vacuum. They're about $5 for a set at the parts store. You could also just jam a bolt into the overflow hose and put a worm clamp on it.

One step that was missing from my earlier explanation: after bleeding the system and starting the car, you must ensure that the coolant reservoir doesn't become empty. When the thermostat opens up - around 195Âş, the engine will suck a lot more coolant into the circuit.

These problems are typically an indication that you have a water pump that's on its last legs. How many miles are on the car?
 
#16 ·
122k, but everything was great and it never went about 195 during my spirited driving before. This is definitely the result of me stupidly opening the cap while hot. I swapped out the blower motor resistor (already had it in hand)

I just drove it around and it hit 250, so I am still having the issue and the heat does not function so there is clearly still an air pocket.
 
#19 ·
Like you have it in that pic. Tank just needs to be higher than the top of the engine.

Have you done the "hand job' method? Wrap your fingers around the main coolant hose where it enters the engine (top, front, on driver side) and squeeze like you were milking a cow. If you hear squishing/gurgling, keep squeezing and releasing until you don't hear anything any more. That will get one of the major bubble issues out (though not necessarily ALL the issues). Note: you'll probably have to remove the engine cover trim to get hold on the hose.
 
#20 ·
Yes, but it wasn't parked on the hill at that time, but the reservoir was raised. Could I have done damage that's causing it to overheat now? There's nothing in the oil and nothing leaking on the ground. I see no indication of a bad head gasket or leak.
 
#21 · (Edited)
250Âş isn't damage-causingly hot. But, it's pushing it. I wouldn't drive it.

All indications - as seen from the other side of the InterTubes (ie, we're not there so we're all guessing, albeit mostly-educated guessing) - are that there's still air in the system.

I suspect a failing water pump because of the initial problem: lost coolant. BUT, it doesn't sound like the thing is really dead as of yet, and it's working well enough for the moment. I doubt the pump is causing the immediate issue.

@TomatoSoup does the car need to be running (or at least above thermostat temp) when squishing the hose? There's no heater core valve, but there's still a thermostat. (Also, I just learned that there's no heater core valve. Thanks!)
 
#22 ·
The coolant was low when I bought it (a week ago), and the car had been sitting for a year, the light would just come on once in a while when I was on a hill. I drove it for about 200-300 miles with no issues at all, no smoke, nothing over 195 degrees. I'll continue to try and burp it and if it goes over 230 on the way home, I'll pull over and have it towed.

With the vacuum system, do I have to drain the system first in order to not have air in the lines or will it literally pull the bubbles out?
 
#23 · (Edited)
It'll pull the bubbles out. It's basically a Venturi with some valves and fittings.

Basically, it goes like this:

1. Insert the tool into the top of the reservoir in place of the cap. They come with a set of rubber cone-shaped fittings, one of which should fit nicely in place of the reservoir cap. There'll be a knob to turn to tighten the tool-reservoir interface. Don't overtighten it.
2. Might have to cap off the overflow outlet.
3. Connect your air compressor to the tool. (I hope you already have a compressor. If not, get the next thing larger than a pancake compressor at Big Box Store, figure about $130.) (Or borrow your neighbor's compressor and return it Real Soon Now.)
4. Turn on the air. It'll pull a vacuum on the system. Give it a few minutes for the reading on the gauge attached to the tool to stabilize.
5. Turn off the valve on the tool, disconnect air. Wait ~10-20 minutes to make sure vacuum is stable. If it's not, you have a leak somewhere. Could be in the tool-to-reservoir interface, or elsewhere in the system. If there is a leak, you may likely see coolant coming out somewhere. If that happens, fix that leak before proceeding as the rest of this won't work without a stable vacuum.
6. Attach a hose to the tool, with the other end in a bucket (or jug) of coolant mix.
7. Open the valve on the tool. The vacuum will suck the coolant into the system until the vacuum is exhausted, at which point you know the system is full. Reinstall your reservoir cap and go enjoy the car.

If you run out of coolant in the container during the "sucking" phase (sorry), start over with more coolant in the container. This setup will not pull in more coolant than is required.

Having said all that: some cars can't be properly bled by this or other methods without the check valves. But, that is for some cars. I recommend installing them, but that takes time for shipping, etc. As an engineer, I find it disturbing that this works in some but not all cases. I prefer deterministic systems.

The reason this works is that air weighs less than coolant. Surface tension in the coolant allows the air bubbles (pockets or whatever) to exist. Applying vacuum sort of overrides that effect. (Physicists, please chime in here.) But, that assumes that there is a clear, uninterrupted circuit that the vacuum is applied to. Any blockages - like, say, a closed thermostat - impede the operation of the device.

I imagine that this has been a very frustrating experience. Although this is a tricky issue to fix, it rarely comes up. If the car was sitting for a year, there will be some issues. That said, we have a number of cars running around with way more miles. One guy at Blackhawk last year had something like 200k miles. My GXP just hit 112k. Runs like a top. (After a water pump, high pressure fuel pump, two wheel bearings, 7 hub bolts, and a bunch of mod work.) Stick with it.

And keep an eye on the coolant level once this is fixed.
 
#25 ·
I have an update, something has started to leak coolant (steady stream) on the right side (turbo side) of the engine. I don't have the energy to post the video right now so I'll do it in the morning. The image attached is from beneath the car. I can't tell exactly but it's in the general vacinity of the back of what I believe is the water pump.

What are the odds, cracked head pouring coolant out or bad water pump pouring coolant from the back of the water pump?

How do our water pump/ WP bearings fail? I was pretty sure the noise I've heard since I bought the car was a bearing (though I thought it was the belt tensioner) but it couldve been the water pump.
 

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#26 · (Edited)
Well, that's a lot of coolant. :( But, it could have come from spillage while working on the car, over-filling, a cracked radiator hose, a cracked radiator, a bad radiator hose clamp (I have a very long story about that one)... there are a lot of options.

If you had a UV dye kit sitting around, you could put some in the coolant, run it for a few minutes, and see exactly where the leak is. They may sound like snake oil, but they work incredibly well.

Failing that - everything would be a guess. If it ran fine for the past few hundred miles, I'd say that the head and gasket are most likely fine. Nothing you've posted indicates that the engine got hot enough to blow a gasket, much less crack the head.

But, I wouldn't put a ton of time and money into a water pump replacement - it is nontrivial on this motor - without knowing where the leak is. A shop would inject some dye and then see where it is coming out, because that's the most efficient way of determining the problem without unnecessarily tearing things apart and randomly replacing parts.
 
#27 ·
So some questions....have you added coolant in the last few weeks to it? Have you noticed any coolant on the ground before? If it IS your WP, it was a catastrophic failure judging by all that coolant. You had to have had some previous indicator that it was going...if it's the WP. Of course, you might have overheated the engine and warped the head and that could be doing this. But with that much coolant, I'd think you would have white exhaust or a bad miss.

So you said it hit 250.... How "well" do you know your car? Do you know when it's overheating? If you can hear the engine note change when it gets to 220 or so, then you would have known it was overheating.... As I posted on another thread...I'm VERY in-tune with my cars...always have been. That's why I made a great service writer..but hated it. I know when my car is getting hot (above 220). The engine note changes as does my exhaust note. And the power starts to lag a bit...it's not quite as responsive. When it hit 250, did it slowly increase to 250, or was it rapid (10 to 20 seconds...maybe 30)? If it was slow...chances are you killed it. With an air bubble, when it moves, the temp gauge will rapidly increase...without an airbubble, you would see: 190.......192.........194..........................196...................198,

With an airbubble you will get:
190.198.200.205.215.225......

If the later happened within seconds and went to 250 you're probably okay...but from my air bubble experience, if it was the first way....the damage might be worse then a WP.
 
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#28 ·
..205...215..305, in my case. Yay.
 
#29 · (Edited)
It is absolutely leaking with loss of coolant now, it's not spillage. It slowly crept up to 250 and once the high temp light came on, i shut it off and let it sit. It seemed if i was on an incline it would shoot up rapidly. There is no smoke, no coolant in the oil, no changes in engine note or behavior.

It's a steady stream when hot/under pressure. I can't tell the exact location but it's coming from turbo side, in the front, directly behind what i think is the water pump. See this video

I will reiterate that this car had a funky bearing grinding type noise before that seems to be magically gone now. I'm wondering if the bearing is basically gone, leaking coolant through the weep hole (do we have that?) And now that the bearing has a constant stream of coolant coming out of it, it's lubed and not making the noise anymore?
 
#30 ·
It is absolutely leaking with loss of coolant now, it's not spillage. It slowly crept up to 250 and once the high temp light came on, i shut it off and let it sit. It seemed if i was on an incline it would shoot up rapidly. There is no smoke, no coolant in the oil, no changes in engine note or behavior.

It's a steady stream when hot/under pressure. I can't tell the exact location but it's coming from turbo side, in the front, directly behind what i think is the water pump. See this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ4TDbKZod0

I will reiterate that this car had a funky bearing grinding type noise before that seems to be magically gone now. I'm wondering if the bearing is basically gone, leaking coolant through the weep hole (do we have that?) And now that the bearing has a constant stream of coolant coming out of it, it's lubed and not making the noise anymore?
Yes, there is what amounts to a weep hole on the bottom side of the pump. It should be easy to tell if that is the problem. It could also be something simpler like a hose or O ring failure at the water pump which would leak onto the ground in the same general area. (front right side of engine.)
 
#31 ·
Unless the crack in the block/head happens to v3e right above the water pump, it seems highly likely that it's oring/hose failure. I saw videos online that show an oring on the pipe coming from the back, does a new pump come with that oring?
 
#34 ·
I don't see that hole in my video, what orientation would it be while installed on the engine?

It's dripping off of the drain plug for the water pump but I think the leak is higher up but I just can't see the exact source.

I ordered a water pump with orings, thermostat, and sprocket holder which should all be in tomorrow. Just gonna go ahead and pull it apart and if there's a crack in the block, I imagine I'll see it. Did anyone look closely at the video I posted? I can refill it, warm it up and take another video and try to get a better shot.
 
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