V6 Engine swap - Page 2 - Pontiac Solstice Forum
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnWR View Post
Somewhere in the article it states that the engine is truck-exclusive, so probably not a Camaro option, although I don't know why they would decide that.
I work for the company that made the assembly line for the new CSS 4-cylinders being made in Spring Hill. The 2.7 version is a large engine physically it would be a tight fit in a Kappa, and with the new camshaft tech I do not know how you would control it without the ECU they make for it.

I don't know if they have announced it yet but they are also making a smaller version for use is some cars (I don't know what platforms) that would fit better in a Kappa, but it would have the same issues getting it to work with the Kappa's BCM.

Look into how the camshafts work on these new CSS engines, it is pretty interesting, not just

cam Phaser's for VVT, there is a lot more going on up there.

As for the V6 swap I would do a lot of research before buying any hardware, I am not sure how well the DOHC V6 will fit between the wheel wells. But if you have the time, skill, and patience to do it, why not. I like different.

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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 08:46 AM
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I think you would be far better off to simply invest in a new or NOS LNF, or totally rebuild the one you have.
I agree. If you want more power, use forged pistons and then add a larger turbo - you can wind up between 400 and 500 bhp reliably. And spend more time driving rather than sorting out a swap.

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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cammerjeff View Post
I work for the company that made the assembly line for the new CSS 4-cylinders being made in Spring Hill. The 2.7 version is a large engine physically it would be a tight fit in a Kappa, and with the new camshaft tech I do not know how you would control it without the ECU they make for it.

I don't know if they have announced it yet but they are also making a smaller version for use is some cars (I don't know what platforms) that would fit better in a Kappa, but it would have the same issues getting it to work with the Kappa's BCM.

Look into how the camshafts work on these new CSS engines, it is pretty interesting, not just

cam Phaser's for VVT, there is a lot more going on up there.

As for the V6 swap I would do a lot of research before buying any hardware, I am not sure how well the DOHC V6 will fit between the wheel wells. But if you have the time, skill, and patience to do it, why not. I like different.
It is hard to believe that an engine bay that will hold a V8 won't manage an L4 of any configuration, but since I haven't seen one I will accept your opinion.

Any engine swap is going to require a ECM/PCM/ECU or whatever the correct alphabet soup is for the model, and communication between it and the BCM is going to be the same regardless.

Overall the technology in that engine is well beyond most of what is available elsewhere, and I think it is pretty impressive.

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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 05:32 PM
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As was previously mentioned, I think you'll run into fit issues with the LY7. Th reason that the V8s fit is because they are pushrod, the LY7 being a DOHC puts extra height and width at the top of the engine structure. This is where packaging volume is at the highest premium in the Kappa engine bay.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:14 PM
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It is hard to believe that an engine bay that will hold a V8 won't manage an L4 of any configuration
The issue is the height of the engine. In an L4, the head sits at the top of the motor, unless one can figure out a way to rotate it, conquer oil pickup issues, offset gravity vector's impact on ring life, and design some mounts to keep it in place. The bare block of an LNF or LE5 is pretty tiny. The head is (guessing based on fallible memory) around 60% as tall as the block.

The LS engines are all push-rod, cam-in-block (you might, but not everyone knows that.). Even a 4-banger without OHC would be a few inches shorter. But, swap that for a V configuration, with the heads pointing off 30* (estimate) from vertical, and you get a much shorter engine vertically (Y), and maybe 1.5x cylinder outer diameter length-wise (Z). With the right mounts, you can wind up with a bunch more space between the valve covers & intake manifold and the hood with the V than with an inline. The issue at that point is all the stuff on the sides of the engine bay, like the poorly-located PS reservoir, AC lines, etc.

I'd love to see what a V6 swap would do. Cheaper motor, better weight impact, and NA. The DI engines are great about reducing turbo lag, but an NA motor has zero lag. There's no substitute for off-the-line torque. I love my GXP, but nothing fun happens until 2500RPM.

Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, Werks Big Wheel K04 and tune, Solo catless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces, RPM rollbar

Last edited by raygun; 08-07-2018 at 01:23 PM.
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:31 PM
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raygun: I was responding to cammerjeff's comment about the L3B L-4 engine that I referenced in post 2 in which he said it was likely to be a tight fit in the Kappa engine bay.

The L3B has variable valve timing and lift which combined with the dual-volute turbocharged will give some incredible performance.
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:48 PM
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The DI engines are great about reducing turbo lag, but an NA motor has zero lag. There's no substitute for off-the-line torque. I love my GXP, but nothing fun happens until 2500RPM.
Why does everyone forget about normal NA engine behavior? They all (including turboed engines) have 'lag. Just take a look at a dyno curve some time. Until they reach the rpm at which they are hitting the torque plateau, they are 'lagging'. Use hotter cam and it is even more evident.

So saying that there is no turbo lag, while technically correct, as there is no turbo, ignores the 'lag' occasioned by the normal operation of the NA engine. Maybe we should start calling the fact that an engine utilizes a camshaft the cause of 'NA' lag...

And FWIW, the LNF products so much torque so early, that they deemed it necessary to set a tune that will not allow full torque production in low gear, lest there be driveline breakage - that's real low torque production!

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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wspohn View Post
Why does everyone forget about normal NA engine behavior?
I wouldn't call that lag - and lag on any FI motor is going to be a lot more disruptive than the equivalent on an NA. The torque curve on a given NA engine is typically much more "flat" than on a comparable (whatever that means in this case) FI motor.

Sure, you don't get peak torque at 0RPM unless you're talking about a Tesla. But, it's a lot more predictable, and much easier to manage on a track. I'd rather not have to use NLS to keep power up when working my way through a road course - and it's rarely optimal in terms of lap time to shift at redline, anyway. One of the reasons that the Miata is so popular, despite being severely under powered, is that it's very, very predictable in terms of torque curve, steering (loves to oversteer, but it lets you know beforehand), etc. Having a spike in your torque is not much fun if you're actually *driving* instead of just nailing it between stop lights.

Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, Werks Big Wheel K04 and tune, Solo catless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces, RPM rollbar

Last edited by raygun; 08-07-2018 at 02:00 PM.
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by wspohn View Post
lest there be driveline breakage - that's real low torque production!
That's not-so-great component selection. 260 lb ft - or even "340" with the GMPP tune - isn't that much, and the delivery isn't nearly as smooth as any NA sports car I've owned.

Again, I love the car - I have two of them. But, the goal of any engineer building a turbo motor is to get it to act like an NA, and there's a reason for that.
t

Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:15 PM
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Having a spike in your torque is not much fun if you're actually *driving* instead of just nailing it between stop lights.
Where is this 'spike' you speak of......


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Recently departed: 1965 Jensen CV8, 1969 Lamborghini Islero S, 1988 Pontiac Fiero GT, 1969 MGC roadster
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:32 PM
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Why does everyone forget about normal NA engine behavior? They all (including turboed engines) have 'lag. Just take a look at a dyno curve some time. Until they reach the rpm at which they are hitting the torque plateau, they are 'lagging'. Use hotter cam and it is even more evident.

So saying that there is no turbo lag, while technically correct, as there is no turbo, ignores the 'lag' occasioned by the normal operation of the NA engine. Maybe we should start calling the fact that an engine utilizes a camshaft the cause of 'NA' lag...

And FWIW, the LNF products so much torque so early, that they deemed it necessary to set a tune that will not allow full torque production in low gear, lest there be driveline breakage - that's real low torque production!
I don't follow your use of "lag" in this context. "Turbo lag" as generally used refers to throttle response, and would not be visible on a dyno curve since it dos not report when the throttle was opened. Since the NA engine is the baseline for measuring lag it will, by definition, have none. Belt-driven superchargers have none because their displacement changes with engine RPM. Turbo-superchargers have to react to increased exhaust flow before their displacement can increase, so there is inherent lag. Modern scroll design and valve valve timing will help to reduce lag and the dual-volute turbo, dedicated head design, and variable valve lift
of the L3B will help even more, but physics demands that there will always be some. I have seen design studies of turbos with electric assist that are supposed to eliminate lag entirely, but it seems like a lot of complication for relatively little reward.

The "spike" is not a bump in the dyno curve, it is a bump in the response curve that occurs when the turbo catches up with the engine.

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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:36 PM
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(Earlier response deleted since it didn't really capture the "lag," as in time lag between action and result.)

Thanks, @JohnWR. You explained it much more clearly than I could have.


Though, if I could attempt to put it in simpler terms: lag is the difference between what you expect to happen, and what actually happens, when you mash the throttle. The difference is always more pronounced on a FI engine - way more so on a turbo vs SC or nitrous - vs an NA engine. Unless, of course, you're driving an Aspire uphill - but who would do that on purpose?

Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, Werks Big Wheel K04 and tune, Solo catless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces, RPM rollbar

Last edited by raygun; 08-07-2018 at 02:46 PM.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:52 PM
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The LNF exhibits noticeable although not (to me) objectionable lag in its throttle response. Hit the throttle and the engine reacts ever so slightly later. In contrast the supercharged LE5 almost seems to anticipate the need for power: Touch the throttle and the power is already there with no detectable lag. The NA LE5 has no lag either, but the markedly lower power output makes it difficult to compare to the other two.

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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 02:55 PM
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Not sure I am understanding you - do you believe that the NA Kappa is much easier to drive than the turbo Kappa?

We haven't really had much lag issue on turbo cars in recent years. I drove race car of a friend - turbo BMW 2002. The lag was so bad that you had to floor the accelerator about when you hit the corner apex in order for it to 'come on' by the time you exited the corner. Worst case I've ever driven.

The LNF in comparison has negligible lag, although those replacing the K04 with larger turbos will experience some.

I drove a Fiero that I had turboed for 20 years and it was one of the smoothest most forgiving cars I've owned.

I currently drive two high output sports cars, one turbo and one not and there is nothing to choose between them - drivability of both is excellent.

Current fleet:
1957 Jamaican bodied MGA
1958 MGA Twin Cam (race car)
1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1971 Jensen Interceptor
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe
2007 BMW Z4M coupe
Recently departed: 1965 Jensen CV8, 1969 Lamborghini Islero S, 1988 Pontiac Fiero GT, 1969 MGC roadster
Mods at https://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f...thread-102178/

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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wspohn View Post
Not sure I am understanding you - do you believe that the NA Kappa is much easier to drive than the turbo Kappa?
Yes. My '06 was easier to drive on a track before the turbo kit, and more so than my GXP.

The NA was less entertaining due to being WAY, WAY underpowered, but much easier. By "easier," I mean more predictable. A good driver that's familiar with their car will compensate, and do well. But, and I hope you'd agree: having a jerk in torque when you're approaching an apex is not ideal.

On the other hand, there are many examples where this isn't a big deal, like the late model Boxters with turbo 4's. The engine architecture and management system are so good that lag is barely perceivable. Again, they did their best to make it act like an NA.

The electric assist systems mentioned earlier attempt to counter lag by sending compressed air into the intake before the turbo spools up. (My understanding is that they generally fail in just about every way imaginable.)

The difference between the BMW you mention and the GXP is lag. Sure, it's a really freaking heavy car, but...

The GXP has less lag. But, it's still there and, in my opinion hardly qualifies as negligible. My original point: I'd rather have no lag at all, which means alien technology, nitrous (blech), piping intake through a parallel dimension, or: an NA swap.

Blue-ish 2006 2.4, Werks stage 1 turbo, Borla cat-back, DDM braces, Spec aluminum flywheel, Spec stage 2 clutch, Werks aluminum radiator, some gauges, RKSport hood, Morimoto FX-Rs, GReddy Profec, Norm's fenders

'07 GXP, Werks Big Wheel K04 and tune, Solo catless downpipe, TCE Wilwood 6 piston front brakes, 4-piston rears , stainless brake lines, slotted/drilled rotors, BC Racing BR coilovers, Performance Autowerks intercooler, DDMWorks CAI, charge pipes and braces, RPM rollbar

Last edited by raygun; 08-07-2018 at 03:10 PM.
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