Pontiac Solstice Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,248 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Source: Autoline Detroit with John McElroy
Host John McElroy discussed the change in the dealership strategy that GM is taking. McElroy reports that the new marketing entity named "BPG". The Buick, Pontiac, and GMC "...brands are going to be grouped and sold together in dealerships." McElroy goes on to report that "GM is going to eliminate any product overlap".

McElroy says the following models exhibit "product overlap":
  • Buick Lacrosse and Pontiac Grand Prix: McElroy pointed out that "Gran Prix sales are dropping like a rock". He picks LaCrosse to be retained.
  • Buick Terraza and Pontiac Montana: Because the Terraza name is not well known, McElroy expects GM to keep the Montana.
  • Pontiac Aztek and Buick Rendezvous: McElroy predicts the Aztek will be dropped.
  • Buick Ranier and GMC Envoy: McElroy observes that "GMC is all about SUV's" and selects the Envoy to continue.
Summary of model lineup guesses from John McElroy:
Buick
  • LaCrosse
  • Lucerne
  • Rendezvous
Pontiac
  • G6
  • Vibe
  • GTO
  • Montana
  • Torrent
  • Solstice
GMC
  • Canyon
  • Envoy
  • Safari
  • Savana
  • Sierra
  • Sonoma
  • Yukon
Now for The Crimson Avenger's wild speculations:

For my self, I expect to see Pontiac produce high performance vehicles, and I would watch to see Pontiac bring back the Super Duty moniker for their engines and drive trains, and in addition to the old parts counter secret recipes and parts numbers, actually offer a Super Duty option much like the Dodge SRT-{insert number of cylinders here} sequence. If Pontiac goes the hot rod route, they could do for GM what Dodge has done for Daimler/Chrysler.

I'll go one step further, I expect to see the marketing reach back to the Tiger that was used to market the first GTO, and I would watch for Pontiac to work on a Viper class machine with a big cat name, possibly the Puma, or better yet, Panther with a Ram Air VI (6) V12 making 850 HP. Maybe they will actually build a Banshee. Personally, I would have considered a GTO if it had looked like the 1999 concept.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,213 Posts
Canadian Dealers typically grouped like this

My dealer is a Pontiac Buick GMC dealer as are the other dealers in town.

The other common GM grouping is Chev Olds Cadillac or Chev Cadillac.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
284 Posts
Crimson Avenger said:
Source: Autoline Detroit with John McElroy
[/list]Summary of model lineup guesses from John McElroy:
Buick
  • LaCrosse
  • Lucerne
  • Rendezvous
Pontiac
  • G6
  • Vibe
  • GTO
  • Montana
  • Torrent
  • Solstice
GMC
  • Canyon
  • Envoy
  • Safari
  • Savana
  • Sierra
  • Sonoma
  • Yukon
Now for The Crimson Avenger's wild speculations:

For my self, I expect to see Pontiac produce high performance vehicles, and I would watch to see Pontiac bring back the Super Duty moniker for their engines and drive trains, and in addition to the old parts counter secret recipes and parts numbers, actually offer a Super Duty option much like the Dodge SRT-{insert number of cylinders here} sequence. If Pontiac goes the hot rod route, they could do for GM what Dodge has done for Daimler/Chrysler.

I'll go one step further, I expect to see the marketing reach back to the Tiger that was used to market the first GTO, and I would watch for Pontiac to work on a Viper class machine with a big cat name, possibly the Puma, or better yet, Panther with a Ram Air VI (6) V12 making 850 HP. Maybe they will actually build a Banshee. Personally, I would have considered a GTO if it had looked like the 1999 concept.
:agree: I will go one more step further, as the Safari and Sonoma models in the GMC line-up are gone, move the Montana and Torrent over to the GMC nameplate and leave only cars in the Pontiac line. Then there would be room for another halo car like the Banshee. The G6's addition of the coupe and convertible for the 06 model year almost round out the line, maybe by adding an all-wheel drive high-performance hatchback to the G6 would sooth those who would miss the SUV's and mini-vans labelled as Pontiacs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
936 Posts
If the guess is correct for Pontiac I would say that is one sick offering and once I get my solstice this long time Pontiac guy will go elswhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,512 Posts
It would be a shame to see the Grand Prix go. I love the one I've got now and would replace it with a new GP if they keep the model out to 2010. (I'll have to pay off the Sol before I can replace the GP.) If the GP goes, I guess I'll just have to get that G6 hardtop convertible that they're working on.
 

·
Mod Emeritus
Joined
·
7,468 Posts
Rogobuck said:
:agree: I will go one more step further, as the Safari and Sonoma models in the GMC line-up are gone, move the Montana and Torrent over to the GMC nameplate and leave only cars in the Pontiac line. Then there would be room for another halo car like the Banshee. The G6's addition of the coupe and convertible for the 06 model year almost round out the line, maybe by adding an all-wheel drive high-performance hatchback to the G6 would sooth those who would miss the SUV's and mini-vans labelled as Pontiacs.
Safari and Sonoma are gone! :thumbs: GMC currently has no small van, and the Montana would fit fine over there. Their small truck is now called the Canyon, a new redesign.

I'd pop the Torrent over to Buick, and drop in the 3.6L DOHC from the LaCrosse CXL. With the Rondezvous already, Buick can keep the crossover SUV's, and leave the more rugged truck based SUV's to GMC.

At any rate, Pontiac should not have any SUV or minivan, as neither match it's "performance" image.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
284 Posts
Fformula88 said:
I'd pop the Torrent over to Buick, and drop in the 3.6L DOHC from the LaCrosse CXL.
If GM would put this engine into the Torrent (or the Chevrolet Equinox) it would be parked in my garage next to my Solstice. I will not buy a vehicle with an engine made in China (think Walmart)! :yesnod:
 

·
Mod Emeritus
Joined
·
7,468 Posts
Rogobuck said:
If GM would put this engine into the Torrent (or the Chevrolet Equinox) it would be parked in my garage next to my Solstice. I will not buy a vehicle with an engine made in China (think Walmart)! :yesnod:
Even if that 3.4L was American made, I still wouldn't put one in my garage. 185 HP just seems a little too weak for me in that vehicle. Especially when their Saturn Vue cousin has 250 HP from it's Honda sourced engine. A 255 HP 3.6L Dohc, or even a little less power from the 2.8L version of the high feature dohc V6 would be better.
 

·
Mod Emeritus
Joined
·
7,468 Posts
DreamerDave said:
Unless they have one with an engine like AztekzRpurty's! :)
Oh, no! I can just see the really long threads calling for an LS2 Torrent now, and then the subsequent announcement by Mallett that he will be offering an LS2 Torrent! :willy: :glol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
936 Posts
I was just at my dealer and they had a Grand Prix GXP and I thought the thing was awsome. It is not the right time for me but if it was around for awhile I can see myself buying one some day. I guess the problem is that pontiac was just too late getting into the game with the GXP. I sure hate to see the Grand Prix go I have owned four of them.
 

·
Mod Emeritus
Joined
·
7,468 Posts
ateam_77 said:
I was just at my dealer and they had a Grand Prix GXP and I thought the thing was awsome. It is not the right time for me but if it was around for awhile I can see myself buying one some day. I guess the problem is that pontiac was just too late getting into the game with the GXP. I sure hate to see the Grand Prix go I have owned four of them.
I wonder how well it drives with all that power spinning the front wheels, and all that weight up in the nose. I haven't seen any good reviews yet. Hopefully they have torque steer tamed, but it still has to be tough to get the power down without liquifying the tires.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,248 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Fformula88 said:
I wonder how well it drives with all that power spinning the front wheels, and all that weight up in the nose. I haven't seen any good reviews yet. Hopefully they have torque steer tamed, but it still has to be tough to get the power down without liquefying the tires.
Along a similar vein, it makes me wonder how the Dodge SRT-4 deals with the same issue. The SRT-4 being a turbo might be easier to launch because it will develop it's maximum torque somewhat later, after the tires are rolling a bit...

I'm also surprised that no one has commented on my wild speculations for a Pontiac Panther super hot-rod.... something to make the Banshee look like a house cat. The Pontiac alignment is "affordable performance" so if they could produce a car with a price tag below $60,000.... and wouldn't it be cool to see a Pontiac follow in the footsteps of the AC Cobra and Cobra Daytona and do very well on the racing circuit.... :lurk:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
281 Posts
Crimson Avenger said:
...I'm also surprised that no one has commented on my wild speculations for a Pontiac Panther super hot-rod.... something to make the Banshee look like a house cat. The Pontiac alignment is "affordable performance" so if they could produce a car with a price tag below $60,000...
Well, I wanted to be nice, but since you asked..."I think you're crazy!" Pontiac can't even get an F-body replacement off the ground. Freakin' F-bodies were cheap, V8's lifted from Corvettes meant all the Corvette guys paid for powerplant development. If GM can't keep a cheap F-body alive, there's no way they can introduce a whole new high-dollar sports car to the world.

To give something like a Chevy Corvette Z06 halo car to Pontiac would piss off the Corvette faithful to no end, too. And the Corvette faithful don't just buy Corvettes, they buy Chevy trucks and cars for daily drivers. I doubt GM will risk alienating them with a competitive cousin over at Pontiac.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
Fformula88 said:
I wonder how well it drives with all that power spinning the front wheels, and all that weight up in the nose. I haven't seen any good reviews yet. Hopefully they have torque steer tamed, but it still has to be tough to get the power down without liquifying the tires.

I saw an article in Motor Trend where they compared drivetrains using a G35, Scoobie STI, and a GP GXP...

All equipped with Traction control. The computer kept the GXP right in line but turn the TCS off and it's hell on wheels.


I think it was the same issue that compared the SRT-4 with the Cobalt SS Supercharged. They showed a graph taken using GPS to demonstrate the torquesteer of each car and the SRT veered to the right just a little bit, where the Cobalt was more unpredictable in how far right it went.

I can get the issue if you like... =)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,248 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Crazy? Yup, guilty as charged!

The Batman said:
Well, I wanted to be nice, but since you asked..."I think you're crazy!"
Yes, you are most definitely right, I'm almost certainly crazy. Having said that, however, I think that it is time for Pontiac to take on the Viper.

A Pontiac Panther more like one of the super cars, but priced around $60,000. With 850 HP from a forced induction 7.6 liter V8 would be possible and actually less power per liter than the Subaru STI. A mid engine, all wheel drive design would make an outstanding platform for racing, and it would finally live up to the real Gran Turismo Omologato moniker that (with tongue in cheek) Pontiac put on the Tempest in 1964. It would be inspiring for Pontiac to do well in one of the production classes in the Le Mans Endurance Series.

I'm sure there are lots of us closet racers who would jump at the chance to drive a super car without having to have a 7 figure salary. Where would we drive such a car? Where else, but on the track. :cool:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,901 Posts
Crimson Avenger said:
Yes, you are most definitely right, I'm almost certainly crazy. Having said that, however, I think that it is time for Pontiac to take on the Viper.

A Pontiac Panther more like one of the super cars, but priced around $60,000. With 850 HP from a forced induction 7.6 liter V8 would be possible and actually less power per liter than the Subaru STI. A mid engine, all wheel drive design would make an outstanding platform for racing, and it would finally live up to the real Gran Turismo Omologato moniker that (with tongue in cheek) Pontiac put on the Tempest in 1964. It would be inspiring for Pontiac to do well in one of the production classes in the Le Mans Endurance Series.

I'm sure there are lots of us closet racers who would jump at the chance to drive a super car without having to have a 7 figure salary. Where would we drive such a car? Where else, but on the track. :cool:
Unfotunately something like this would take another 2.5-5 years to develope. Unless of course GM has some MR/RR layout platform in development already they've been keeping silent (GM keep something silent?). Especially a vehicle using such an exotic engine combo as you've suggested. I think going with a Supercharged LS2 would be a better idea. Because then they can use a detuned Supercharged LS2 in a GTO GXP. The super car version would make you know like 500~600, the detuned one like 400~500, and you keep your base LS2 for the base cars.
 

·
Mod Emeritus
Joined
·
7,468 Posts
MO-KAN SHO said:
I saw an article in Motor Trend where they compared drivetrains using a G35, Scoobie STI, and a GP GXP...

All equipped with Traction control. The computer kept the GXP right in line but turn the TCS off and it's hell on wheels.


I think it was the same issue that compared the SRT-4 with the Cobalt SS Supercharged. They showed a graph taken using GPS to demonstrate the torquesteer of each car and the SRT veered to the right just a little bit, where the Cobalt was more unpredictable in how far right it went.

I can get the issue if you like... =)
I saw that article. That was last months issue I believe (June issue arriving May 1). The GXP did hold its own fairly well, but it did exhibit some fwd probelms. I was more curious how it felt to my own rear end! ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,248 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Who said anything about not wanting to wait? NOT ME!

brentil said:
Crimson Avenger said:
Yes, you are most definitely right, I'm almost certainly crazy. Having said that, however, I think that it is time for Pontiac to take on the Viper.

A Pontiac Panther more like one of the super cars, but priced around $60,000. With 850 HP from a forced induction 7.6 liter V8 would be possible and actually less power per liter than the Subaru STI. A mid engine, all wheel drive design would make an outstanding platform for racing, and it would finally live up to the real Gran Turismo Omologato moniker that (with tongue in cheek) Pontiac put on the Tempest in 1964. It would be inspiring for Pontiac to do well in one of the production classes in the Le Mans Endurance Series.

I'm sure there are lots of us closet racers who would jump at the chance to drive a super car without having to have a 7 figure salary. Where would we drive such a car? Where else, but on the track.
Unfortunately something like this would take another 2.5-5 years to develop. Unless of course GM has some MR/RR layout platform in development already they've been keeping silent (GM keep something silent?). Especially a vehicle using such an exotic engine combo as you've suggested. I think going with a Supercharged LS2 would be a better idea. Because then they can use a detuned Supercharged LS2 in a GTO GXP. The super car version would make you know like 500~600, the detuned one like 400~500, and you keep your base LS2 for the base cars.
I fully expected that it would take 5 to 7 years, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want them to work on an all wheel drive Panther.

The Corvette and Viper are both racing in the Le Mans Endurance series, and the Viper is now some 14 years on from its first production vehicles in 1991 deserves to be taken to task.

The Viper was fairly quick from prototype/concept shown in 1989 to production in 1991, and has seen improvements since then. Among other goals, they set one to beat the old Shelby Cobra 0-100-0 record. It was a good place to start, but they also made it turn and made it strong enough to race.

Now, to beat some the Viper's performance will take using more than two wheels to propel the vehicle, and it will take substantially more horse power.

You've suggested building a car that would use the existing LS-2 engine, and while that might work, I'm not convinced. Let's look at what Viper did... They are using an aluminum block V-10 with push rods and 2 valves per cylinder. While this works well, it isn't necessarily the best for extreme horse power per liter numbers.

Does anyone remember the Quad-4? Did anyone know that because the cylinder spacing and bolt patterns were the same that the Quad-4 head would fit on a V-8 (Can't remember which one... I think it was a Pontiac V-8)? I'm not saying that they should use the old Quad-4 head and an old block, but what I am trying to say is that this is going to take more innovation than just pulling stuff off of the parts shelf.

Even beyond engine design (which would probably be a new engine design) there would be a lot of work to build an all wheel drive system capable of dissipating 850 HP. Basically, almost every part of the machine (including the body and suspension) would have to be re-worked to make it capable of withstanding the torques and power levels involved.

Am I saying it would be quick to market? No. Am I saying it would be easy? No. Would it be worth it? Quite possibly.

Why 7.6 liters? Well, there's this small light (for cast iron) V-8 that GM has in its history that while is very close to the Chevy small block (on which the LS-2 is based) in dimensions and weight is a beefy motor that made loads of naturally aspirated horsepower with 455 cu in (7.45 liters) When used at 30 over, it's 7.6 liters and still plenty strong. I'm talking about the old Pontiac V-8. It's substantially smaller than the 454 Chevy big block, and much lighter. When balanced and using 1965 forged steel rods and light weight forged aluminum pistons, it can easily turn 6500 RPM. And the rods also had piston oiling jets much as the ecotech.

Let's wind the clock forward: we now have machines that are producing 120 horse power per liter (Subaru STI, etc.) in showroom trim. To get to the 850 Horse power mark, we need just over 110 HP/liter. By using 4 valve heads like the Quad-4 DOHC heads, it actually becomes possible to get enough fuel and air into that 7.6 liters to take advantage of the higher RPM made possible by the reduced rotating mass of the lighter rods and pistons. To save weight, (just as was done with the Chevy small block to make the LS-1 and LS-2 engines) shift over to a sleeved aluminum or magnesium block based on that Pontiac block, and use aluminum for the heads.

OK, enough of starting to work the designs. GM does already have a 1000 horse power engine/transmission combo in that Cadillac super car from a couple of years back. Which ever way you go, you'll want to take some of the clues and lessons from the Cadillac.

Will we be driving one before the decade is out? Probably not. But, the Panther could live, and if it was able to beat the other super cars in performance (not unlike the 1964 Tempest having better acceleration than almost everything Europe had to offer [I didn't say anything about the cornering of the Tempest so bear with me]) then Pontiac would be getting back to its roots. The Panther really would be Super Duty--now that's "ACTION"! :cool:
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top