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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
first, to be clear, I am making this thread not only to make a point I've made int the past (though now that point is proven) but because the discussion itself helps fulfill itself, the discussion becomes a self fulfilling prophesy when others are researching the car

I have a gxp sine 2007, put 50k on the first one, the only reason I didn't buy out the lease was rhys mylan wanted to get rid of his cheap so I bought his with 4 k on it, I have put 45 k on this one

I paid 15 for the second car in 2010, I've been offered a few times while shopping for an suv 15 in trade and then 13 outright when they saw I was not interested in trading

so there you have it, while it hasn't appreciated in sale value nor has it devaluated like others would have

if you consider your car a necessary to accomplish accomplish your other goals (and that's what a car is for most people), it's a tool, and when you invest in a tool you don't need it to be worth more when you sell it then when you paid, you need the tool to make money on other projects

this "tool" has not only made me money on other projects, it has depreciated far less then any other tool of this nature I might have bought, net investment here, it is a clear positive investment

so yes, this car has been a clear investment with positive net return

on the other hand, I will always own a gxp, if this one dies I will buy another, when I get a more exotic car this one will always be in my stable, it is simply a work of art that I have not grown tired

so there you go, have at me "cars are not investments" guys...cause in this case, the solstice gxp was clearly an investment

PEACE!:devil:
 

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We've been over this ad nauseum. An investment is something you buy hoping that in the future, the value will increase so that when you sell it, deducting your initial purchase price and any interest you paid on the investment, you receive more money than you put into it.


Your rather unique take on the word 'investment' is anything that depreciates less than the usual for a particular class of goods.

I guess I could make up my own definitions too, but on the whole I prefer to stick with what everyone else uses for a given term as it makes discussions more meaningful.

If you said that GXPs seem to depreciate less than some other comparable cars, I would have no issue at all, but when you starts saying that this equates to an 'investment', I'm afraid you've lost me.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
aha, I got a bite!

We've been over this ad nauseum. An investment is something you buy hoping that in the future, the value will increase so that when you sell it, deducting your initial purchase price and any interest you paid on the investment, you receive more money than you put into it.
that's not correct, an investment is something you pay for with the expectation of positive return, you expect to wind up with more money then you invested one way or the other

for instance, people invest in their tools all the time, competitive drivers (you for the first example)invest in better brakes (I would hope), you can no way no how sell your brakes for more then you paid for them but if they help you place higher in one single event you have a positive return on that investment

and wspohn, there is no way you are going to tell me you haven't heard colleagues tell you they are "investing" in better shocks, better brakes or whatever and I would even lay odds you've used the term that way yourself

your concept of what is or is not an investment is not what investors consider an investment

Your rather unique take on the word 'investment' is anything that depreciates less than the usual for a particular class of goods.
interesting you would call my common "take" on what or what is not an investment "unique", for any investor, it's common...sorry
I guess I could make up my own definitions too, but on the whole I prefer to stick with what everyone else uses for a given term as it makes discussions more meaningful.
you have, by changing the meaning to suit your personal point of view, for your information, an investment is something you make more money on then you spend, you shouldn't be redefining it

If you said that GXPs seem to depreciate less than some other comparable cars, I would have no issue at all,
I did say that, glad we agree on at least one thing

but when you starts saying that this equates to an 'investment', I'm afraid you've lost me.
sorry this is hard to follow, it's pretty pedestrian so I am surprised coming from you, if you make more money on something then you've "invested" that's a positive investment

for instance, if i buy an apartment building, take rent over years far in excess of what I paid for it or would have made in interest, then sell it for less then I paid for it, I have made money on that solid investment

another example;

I'm a salesman, drive luxury cars when on an appointment, I make sales I would not make if I drove something that cost less, the car costs more, the sales outweigh the added cost, that car is an investment

hope that helps and you are no longer lost
 

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aha, I got a bite!



that's not correct, an investment is something you pay for with the expectation of positive return, you expect to wind up with more money then you invested one way or the other

for instance, people invest in their tools all the time, competitive drivers (you for the first example)invest in better brakes (I would hope), you can no way no how sell your brakes for more then you paid for them but if they help you place higher in one single event you have a positive return on that investment

and wspohn, there is no way you are going to tell me you haven't heard colleagues tell you they are "investing" in better shocks, better brakes or whatever and I would even lay odds you've used the term that way yourself

your concept of what is or is not an investment is not what investors consider an investment



interesting you would call my common "take" on what or what is not an investment "unique", for any investor, it's common...sorry


you have, by changing the meaning to suit your personal point of view, for your information, an investment is something you make more money on then you spend, you shouldn't be redefining it



I did say that, glad we agree on at least one thing



sorry this is hard to follow, it's pretty pedestrian so I am surprised coming from you, if you make more money on something then you've "invested" that's a positive investment

for instance, if i buy an apartment building, take rent over years far in excess of what I paid for it or would have made in interest, then sell it for less then I paid for it, I have made money on that solid investment

another example;

I'm a salesman, drive luxury cars when on an appointment, I make sales I would not make if I drove something that cost less, the car costs more, the sales outweigh the added cost, that car is an investment

hope that helps and you are no longer lost
A whole lot of word smitthing going on here. You are using two different uses of the term 'investing' or 'investment' and interchanging them freely, greatly distorting things.

In financial terms, wsphon's description is spot on. There are few, if any cars of any kind that would qualify as good 'investment's from a financial perspective. At best it's speculative. The 427 Cobra that sold for $1million 10 years ago brings half that now. The $500K is great if you bought the car at it's original $6500 sale price, not so great if you bought at market peak.

Your use of the term 'invest' as in 'investing in better brakes' has nothing whatsoever to do with financial investment. The only way in your example one could say the hypothetical racer got a net positive return on his 'investment' is if he got better lap times in a way demonstrably attributable to the brakes. That is if his goal was to get better lap times. BUT, if his goal was to win the race, failing winning it would be a net negative investment in your example.

The point is you are changing the discussion altogether. Here, the Lotus forum I am on frequently, and others all have this discussion. Lotus isn't out of business (yet) like Pontiac, but the 5000 or so Elise/Exiges in country are all there will ever be because they are no longer produced or imported. So their rarity/collectibility in terms of raw #'s is theoretically 20 times better than the 100K or so Kappa cars in the US....but even on the Lotus forum the consensus is that depreciation is a bit slower (the 05's retain over 50% of their original MSRP) and that the bottom might not be as steep, but to see them as investments in the traditional, generally accepted sense of the word is seen as foolish by all but the most hopeful dreamers trying to justify why they don't drive their cars.

Car forums speak about cars as investments the way wsphon describes it, not your way.

Now, if you said that based on how you use your car, how you enjoy your car, and the pleasure you get from it, you feel you are getting your money's worth, I think a lot of us could go along with that.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I'm not using different terms then anyone who invests wspohn, you simply want to be right and ignore the facts of positive return in order to make your point

if you are going to use your car for your business to make money that's an investment even if you have to junk your car

if your car depreciates less then a different car you would have bought then you have a positive return

you can decide your investments on your own terms if you want but if you don't use the actual definition I (and most investors) use then you will wind up without the positive benefits others will find
 

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Sorry, perris, the others have it correctly. Your definition of 'investment' is wrong unless you expect to get back more than you put in.

Merrion Webster definition:

Definition of INVESTMENT
: the outlay of money usually for income or profit : capital outlay; also : the sum invested or the property purchased

Dictionary.com definition:
in·vest·ment
[in-vest-muhnt] noun
1. the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.
2. a particular instance or mode of investing.
3. a thing invested in, as a business, a quantity of shares of stock, etc.
4. something that is invested; sum invested.
5. the act or fact of investing or state of being invested, as with a garment.
 

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i got my 2.4 n/ with 30k last year for 15, now it has 55k and after driving it the way i have its worth like 7k and im okay with that because i got this car to thrash around as a DD and man this thing has been beat up, not as investment, i think if i were to trade in though they would offer me 10k min only because its a 'rare' car, and it looks soo damn good, anyway im gonna go grab breakfast if you need me you can find me drifting around whittier:devil: (mr police officer i was just kidding!)
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Sorry, perris, the others have it correctly. Your definition of 'investment' is wrong unless you expect to get back more than you put in.[/blockquote]

excuse me?

the very definition you provide makes my point;

Merrion Webster definition:

Definition of INVESTMENT
: the outlay of money usually for income or profit : capital outlay; also : the sum invested or the property purchased
I wonder if you even read that before you posted it as there it is in the very first sentence, I get far more income from my autos then I spend

anyway, I am on board with webster, those of you who are not, shame

my car is an outlay for income and profit, thank you for making the point even though you thought you were doing otherwise

even your next quote, highlights are mine

Dictionary.com definition:[/U]
in·vest·ment
[in-vest-muhnt] noun
1. the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income[/B], orappreciation in value.
notice "or" appreciation in value is the secondary NOT the primary definition

so thanks for providing the links to make my point, preciate it
 

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Discussion Starter #9
for those who think I am being argumentative, i am not

I have a luxery car my collegues do not, my collegues are with you guys and think you lose money on cars so they spend as little as they can

I sell more then they do, I sell at a higher margin, I sell to a better market...mostly because of my investment in the tools of image

I, unlike them, understand what most successful investors understand, positive return on investment doesn't always mean appreciation of the asset but if you have a net gain after expenses

so those of you who don't want to take advantage of this simple money making investment strategy, I am fine with that

those of you who do, have some fun making money with your investments!
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Car forums speak about cars as investments the way wsphon describes it, not your way.
and you say I am word smithing?...yet here you need some kind of disclaimer to make your point

anyway, I will agree with that statement, "car" forums do speak of investments the way wspohn does, so are are on the same page as far as that sentence

those who agree with "car" forums and not webster are however on very shaky ground
 

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Aha, that explains the purpose of the post.

:lurk:
Yeah - he's run this highly individualistic 'logic' by the forum before. I only posted so that any newcomer would be aware that what had been said wasn't taken as gospel (and I expect that sandan did the same thing). Most of us have given up actually trying to discuss or debate these 'theories' any more.
 

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In another article ("Learn the Difference Between Affect and Effect") I commented that I almost never see the words affect and effect used correctly. In fact, misuse of these words is so common that I have come to believe that most people no longer have a clue about how they are properly used. Probably most people are not even aware that they are two separate words.

Another pair of words that I see misused far more often than not is than and then. As with affect and effect, than and then are so commonly misused that I suspect that more than mere carelessness is involved. I now believe that many people are either unaware that they are two separate words, or if they are aware of the two words, they have no idea of which is which.


THAN

Unlike then, than is not related to time. Than is used in comparative statements.


EXAMPLES:

~Another pair of words that I see misused far more often than not is than and then.
~He is taller than I am.
~Other than the interest on a small inheritance, he had no income.
~Today's students certainly do seem to read less than students in previous generations did.
~We learned more on the playground than we did in the classroom.
~Despite their lack of flavor, the hothouse tomatoes cost far more than those from the farmers' market.


THEN

Then is used either as a time marker or with a sequence of events.


EXAMPLES:

~I took all of the exams in the morning, and then I spent the rest of the day catching up on sleep.
~Back then we knew what was expected of us.
~I bought apples from this orchard last summer, but I seem to remember paying more for them then.
~Look over the study guide first, and then if you still have questions bring them up in class.

not in this post ,but what the hell is WERK. Is that another way of jivving work?
I am not knocking spelling. Just proper word usage:willy:.
 

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Well perris, compared to investing in that Facebook IPO or the newGM stock...
your Kappa investment is indeed a good one. :cheers:
 

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I enjoyed this little ditty

Also, tool investments also qualify for tax deductions and a return on that investment. Driving a car does not get you tax deductions nor does it return on investment.


A classic was built before 1948


 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Yeah - he's run this highly individualistic 'logic' by the forum before.
pretty interesting you would say I am using highly individual "logic" when I am the person using the primary definition of investment and YOU are using the secondary definition

then you actually try to make the case my primary definition according to webster is wrong and you're secondary definition is the only one we can use

wsponh, you certainly ride a very high horse, to simply put to your post what you tried to claim of me;

for those of you new to this board, wspohn does this alot in a discussion, it seems as far as he is concerned, even webster is wrong if it disagrees with his opinion

so you can believe my webster primary definition is highly individualistic if you'd like, those who understand what investments are know better
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
man, you guys trying to disagree with webster!

here's a simple analogy

I could buy a plastic pair of shoes for a few bucks that will last a month or two and I would not impress anyone in a sales meeting

OR I could "invest" in some quality leather shoes that would last longer AND land me more sales revenue

anyone here think that's NOT an investment with positive return?...even wspohn?

I enjoyed this little ditty
thanks, thought you might

Also, tool investments also qualify for tax deductions and a return on that investment. Driving a car does not get you tax deductions nor does it return on investment.
so you are saying since the government doesn't give a deduction then it must not be an investment...interesting barometer but no...see my example above, the government does not give deductions for clothes unless they are employment specific (thanks for playing)

and yes, I do get a return on my car, I make FAR more because of the car then without it AND I make FAR more because of the car then I spent on it

and since this car depreciates less then other cars I might have bought to serve the same purpose, it was a sound financial investment with positive return

now, if the car depreciated more then another car might have doing the same service, that would not be a sound investment

you guys really need to have a read of webster, really really really, claiming the dictionary's primary definition is wrong and your secondary meaning is the only one that counts demonstrates how sound your opinion
 

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wsponh, you certainly ride a very high horse, to simply put to your post what you tried to claim of me;

for those of you new to this board, wspohn does this alot in a discussion, it seems as far as he is concerned, even webster is wrong if it disagrees with his opinion

Perris, I simply suggested that your view of these matters was not in accord with the opinions of most people here. I did not indulge in the sort of ad hominem remark that you skirted with the quote above. As I asserted early on, we've been through this before and I have no intention of debating the merits all over again. You stick with your definitions and nothing I nor anyone else says is going to change that - end of story.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
wspohn said:
Perris, I simply suggested that your view of these matters was not in accord with the opinions of most people here.
I might agree, those of you who want to disagree with webster seem more pronounced on this board then in the general population

I did not indulge in the sort of ad hominem remark that you skirted with the quote above. .
you didn't?...really?

of course you did

I responded in kind and you took it as ad hominem, it's pretty telling you think when you do it it's not, when someone responds in kind it is

kidding aside wspohn, when you think something you say is not an insult, many times it is, that statement from you is a case on point

A- end of story
we can agree on that part of your post
 
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