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Discussion Starter #1
Just got back from my pontiac dealer they had two soltices on display. They were preproduction cars one was red with leather and the other was silver with cloth inside.They both looked great.I got talking to the dealer and they said that two people trying to sell their soltices on ebay that were ordered were canceled by GM.I dont feel sorry for them.They lost their soltices for the love of money.No soltices for them. :( :(
 

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Where is your dealer located and how much was he asking? What were the VIN #s? And shouldn't GM offer them to people on the "wait list"? It's not exactly the same as if the customer canceled and the cars go the dealer.

I know most of you don't have any sympathy for those trying to sell their 1st 1K on Ebay, but do you really think GM has the right to cancel your order based on what YOU want to do with your car once you buy it. They could decide that those planing to strip the Pontiac and GM logos need to be canceled also. JMHO :cool:

P.S. I don't care if people want to remove the Pontiac or GM stuff from their cars. I just used that as an example. :)
 

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dave clancy said:
.I got talking to the dealer and they said that two people trying to sell their soltices on ebay that were ordered were canceled by GM.I dont feel sorry for them.They lost their soltices for the love of money.No soltices for them. :( :(
how would the dealer know this?.....and on what grounds did GM cancel their order......just curious...there are currently 3 F1K cars on ebay..none in the possession of the owner..and only one identifies a VIN number....621 and his ad states he doesnt have the car in his possession yet..but expects it 31 Aug....
 

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PAO said:
how would the dealer know this?.....and on what grounds did GM cancel their order......just curious...there are currently 3 F1K cars on ebay..none in the possession of the owner..and only one identifies a VIN number....621 and his ad states he doesnt have the car in his possession yet..but expects it 31 Aug....

Mighty curious ;)
 

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That is a rumor hard to believe. I would support it, but find it hard to believe that GM could pull someone's car because the where up for sale on EBAY. More power to mighty GM if they did pull this one off.
 

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TerpFan said:
That is a rumor hard to believe. I would support it, but find it hard to believe that GM could pull someone's car because the where up for sale on EBAY. More power to mighty GM if they did pull this one off.
Why? Do you believe only GM and their dealers should make a profit from the sell of a Solstice. Are you gong to give yours back to GM when you decide to get another vehicle? Would you have bought one if GM had you sign a contract that said you could never sell it for more than you paid for it? Sorry I'm just trying to understand why you would support GM telling someone what they should or shouldn't do with one of their products. I understand the part about not ordering a 1st 1K just to make a profit, I don't happen to agree, but I understand.
 

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dave clancy said:
Just got back from my pontiac dealer they had two soltices on display. They were preproduction cars one was red with leather and the other was silver with cloth inside.They both looked great.I got talking to the dealer and they said that two people trying to sell their soltices on ebay that were ordered were canceled by GM.I dont feel sorry for them.They lost their soltices for the love of money.No soltices for them. :( :(
Maybe they were dealers trying to sell on Ebay; that might give GM leverage to cancel their orders.
 

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Sydney said:
Why? Do you believe only GM and their dealers should make a profit from the sell of a Solstice. Are you gong to give yours back to GM when you decide to get another vehicle? Would you have bought one if GM had you sign a contract that said you could never sell it for more than you paid for it? Sorry I'm just trying to understand why you would support GM telling someone what they should or shouldn't do with one of their products. I understand the part about not ordering a 1st 1K just to make a profit, I don't happen to agree, but I understand.
It might of been the dealer from brown & **** that got 3 first 1000 supposely by Having 30 people try to get thru during the promotion with the intent of them not taking the car. Well at least he told that to someone on the phone from this forum. He was from Greenville, NC. A lot of people reported him. And he kept changing his story ever time he posted. Most of know who it was that did this.And if it was him I glad becaues he didn't play by the rules.
 

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Sydney said:
Where is your dealer located and how much was he asking? What were the VIN #s? And shouldn't GM offer them to people on the "wait list"? It's not exactly the same as if the customer canceled and the cars go the dealer.
I think the original post was somewhat misleading. I got the impression that the first three sentences were supposed to be completely separate comments from the last two sentences. He said the two Sols at the dealer were preproduction cars, so they would not be for sale ... we've heard of a car or two show up at a number of dealers at various times. Then, on a separate note, the dealer was talking about completely different cars whose orders were cancelled due to selling. My guess is that last part was second-hand information not involving that dealer himself. I would possibly further speculate that the cancelled orders the dealer mentioned were those offered by dealers which everybody here was discussing weeks ago.

Oh well ... that's just a bunch of guessing on my part ... perhaps Dave will clear things up about what he actually saw soon.
 

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It's none of GM's business what consumers do with the vehicle they purchase. Their job is just to make the cars, not determine who buys them.
 

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SlySol said:
I think the original post was somewhat misleading. I got the impression that the first three sentences were supposed to be completely separate comments from the last two sentences. He said the two Sols at the dealer were preproduction cars, so they would not be for sale ... we've heard of a car or two show up at a number of dealers at various times. Then, on a separate note, the dealer was talking about completely different cars whose orders were cancelled due to selling. My guess is that last part was second-hand information not involving that dealer himself. I would possibly further speculate that the cancelled orders the dealer mentioned were those offered by dealers which everybody here was discussing weeks ago.

Oh well ... that's just a bunch of guessing on my part ... perhaps Dave will clear things up about what he actually saw soon.
I miss read the "preproduction" part. My bad. Thanks SlySol, for pointing that out.
 

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Let's kill all the scalpers!

lupado said:
It's none of GM's business what consumers do with the vehicle they purchase. Their job is just to make the cars, not determine who buys them.
I humbly disagree. Partly on ethical grounds, but I'm fairly certain that this would also come out in GM's favor if someone sued for their right to engage in this form of chicanery. Pontiac set out to sell the first 1000 vehicles to those individuals who loved the car best. Makes sense- keep people from being picking up torches and pitchforks after they get screwed en masse , and hitting the web with metric buttloads of anti-GM hatespeech. GM instructed dealers in writing to not apply massive markups on the Solstice. I somehow doubt they intended to have anybody, whether freedom-fighting individuals like lupado, or dealers, scalp early spots for the first 1000. Ethically, without need of explanation(writer's cramp coming on), GM should annihilate any dealer or individual trying to turn a quick scum-sucking buck off the 1st 1000 vehicles.
 

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Remo said:
I humbly disagree. Partly on ethical grounds, but I'm fairly certain that this would also come out in GM's favor if someone sued for their right to engage in this form of chicanery. Pontiac set out to sell the first 1000 vehicles to those individuals who loved the car best. Makes sense- keep people from being picking up torches and pitchforks after they get screwed en masse , and hitting the web with metric buttloads of anti-GM hatespeech. GM instructed dealers in writing to not apply massive markups on the Solstice. I somehow doubt they intended to have anybody, whether freedom-fighting individuals like lupado, or dealers, scalp early spots for the first 1000. Ethically, without need of explanation(writer's cramp coming on), GM should annihilate any dealer or individual trying to turn a quick scum-sucking buck off the 1st 1000 vehicles.
I disagree, also humbly. There is nothing unethical about selling a car for more than it worth if everyone involved knows the value of said car. I believe everyone in the market for a Solstice knows it's MSRP value.

The Solstice made it debut on a program based on seeing how low people will go to screw each other "to turn a quick scum-sucking buck."

GM "suggested" ,and from the responces on the forum not to strongly, that their dealers not over charge.

Finely Pontiac set out to sell the 1st 1000 to anyone who could get to their dealer first.

Just my opinion.

I do agree that dealers that lied or broke rules to obtain Solstices should be dealt with as harshly as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The cars that were at dealer were hand built at the warren tech center in MICHIGAN.The cars will be crushed after they tested. Every car that I have seen are what I call preproduction hand built cars.
 

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What is happening here is the point is being covered over with all this talk about profit. GM dosen't care if someone makes a profit on reselling one of their cars, in fact it is a good thing.

The point for discussion is: can Pontiac/GM not deliver a 1000 First 1000 Exclusive Retail Order Solstice to a buyer that had or has the car listed for resale anywhere (not just eBay). ( Of course I am totally skipping over if it is true or not. I believe it is not true based on the source)

I would say Yes. GM/Pontiac can have a say in what a buyer does with a car. Especially if the car has special incentives or status. For example, under the GM Employee Purchase Program, a GTO buyer must keep the car for 24 months.

They could take away these "orders" not because they are trying to resell them or make a profit on flipping them, but because the "buyer" has become not eligible for the program.

Program rules clearly state that eligible buyers "must be individuals purchasing for personal use". Another requirement that isn't quite as tightly fitting is "persons engaged in the business of reselling, brokering, or wholesaling motor vehicles are not eligible to purchase". There may even be other rules that could come into play, but I do not have access to all of them here at home. GM/Pontiac reserved the right to interpret and ammend the rules as they see fit, and anyone who participated agreed to follow the rules. Think it gives GM/Pontiac a leg to stand on if they wanted to not deliver a car to a person attempting a resale.


In summary, while I don't think they have, I think they could if they wanted.
 

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Small Dealer said:
What is happening here is the point is being covered over with all this talk about profit. GM dosen't care if someone makes a profit on reselling one of their cars, in fact it is a good thing.

The point for discussion is: can Pontiac/GM not deliver a 1000 First 1000 Exclusive Retail Order Solstice to a buyer that had or has the car listed for resale anywhere (not just eBay). ( Of course I am totally skipping over if it is true or not. I believe it is not true based on the source)

I would say Yes. GM/Pontiac can have a say in what a buyer does with a car. Especially if the car has special incentives or status. For example, under the GM Employee Purchase Program, a GTO buyer must keep the car for 24 months.

They could take away these "orders" not because they are trying to resell them or make a profit on flipping them, but because the "buyer" has become not eligible for the program.

Program rules clearly state that eligible buyers "must be individuals purchasing for personal use". Another requirement that isn't quite as tightly fitting is "persons engaged in the business of reselling, brokering, or wholesaling motor vehicles are not eligible to purchase". There may even be other rules that could come into play, but I do not have access to all of them here at home. GM/Pontiac reserved the right to interpret and ammend the rules as they see fit, and anyone who participated agreed to follow the rules. Think it gives GM/Pontiac a leg to stand on if they wanted to not deliver a car to a person attempting a resale.


In summary, while I don't think they have, I think they could if they wanted.
There is an interesting legal argument here.

rule said:
"must be individuals purchasing for personal use".
Question one would be whether selling a personally owned vehicle, in this case a 1000 EOP car, would be personal use. If your not a business, whatever you do with your car could be a personal use. Especially since GM cannot reasonably expect a buyer of a first 1000 car to keep it indefinately, and never sell it at some point.

rule said:
"persons engaged in the business of reselling, brokering, or wholesaling motor vehicles are not eligible to purchase".
This is another good rule, but it just doesn't seem applicable to individuals. Can GM use this to stop an individual from trying to turn around and profit? If they are not in a business of reselling, brokering, or wholesaling vehicles I don't think this would carry weight. If Joe buyer turns out to be a social worker who bought a Sol and turned around to sell it, this really wouldn't apply.



Now I see where you are coming from SD. What GM intended the rules to say and what they actually wrote may be two different things.

I wouldn't know this, but do you know whether there was a special contract for the EOP buyers that they had to sign agreeing to these EOP rules? Whether or not they actually signed a statement acknowledging these rules could also play big into any legal discussion on them.
 

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Fformula88 said:
Now I see where you are coming from SD. What GM intended the rules to say and what they actually wrote may be two different things.
That is the great thing about it. What GM intended is that they can interpret the rules as they see fit. It dosen't matter how they look like they came out in written form.

It is no different then these threads, some times what I intended to write isn't what it came out of the keyboards as, but I still interpret it to mean what I wanted to say. :lol:

And I know the second qualification dosen't really apply, that is why I wrote it wan't "tightly fitting" (there is that intent and written thing again). But it does go to GM's "intent" that the cars are for the "buyers" to use (and own), not resell.

Fformula88 said:
I wouldn't know this, but do you know whether there was a special contract for the EOP buyers that they had to sign agreeing to these EOP rules? Whether or not they actually signed a statement acknowledging these rules could also play big into any legal discussion on them.
I don't have my Solstice folder here at home (in the early days I did bring it home nightly for late night posts). I would assume that by registering for a participation number at the Apprentice site, you were confirming that you would play by the rules. I have not seen any posts about additional or special EOP contracts.

One of the forms that is commonly signed at delivery, requires the buyer to sign that they are the "ulimate retail purchaser". They wouldn't be if the eBay buyer was waiting in the dealership lounge to take the car away.
 

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I don't think whether EOP participants signed a contract or agreed to any terms is the question. As far as I'm aware no one other than those whose cars have already been built and invoiced have entered into a contract with GM and therefore the cars still belong, unencumbered, to GM and they do not have to sell them to anyone.

On the other hand I completely disagree that there's any reason for GM to cancel these orders or that it's in any way wrong for anyone (other than dealers who cheated to obtain a first 1,000) to sell these cars anywhere they want and for any amount of money.

This is a car, a material possesion, not a child. There is no decree that people must be worthy to own this car or must love or care for this car. Some people do, and that's great, but none the less to others it's just a vehicle like any other and that's fine too. As long as there's no fraud or misrepresentation involved then whether a car was bought as an investment, on a whim, or for any other reason really should not matter to GM or any of us. Would anyone be upset if someone put a Harley on ebay for more than they bought it for? (Harley's, I understand, are routinely resold for more than the purchase price).
 

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Sydney said:
I disagree, also humbly. There is nothing unethical about selling a car for more than it worth if everyone involved knows the value of said car. I believe everyone in the market for a Solstice knows it's MSRP value.
I guess I missed your point here- nothing wrong with selling a car for more than its worth? Uh...what? First, I'm all for the free market economy. If dealers want to apply sadistic markups to non- EOP vehicles, then that is what the car is worth. It someone pays it, there's the market supply and demand in action, and God Bless America. This is not, however, the elephant in the room that we were discussing.
Sydney said:
The Solstice made it debut on a program based on seeing how low people will go to screw each other "to turn a quick scum-sucking buck."
Well, yes, but that's a T.V. show, and I fail to understand how the television impacts the legal and ethical realities of this topic. Also, I don't think the show was about how low people would go, but about their professional performance and ethics. The inept and shady characters got fired.
Sydney said:
GM "suggested" ,and from the responces on the forum not to strongly, that their dealers not over charge.
OK, now I think we're with the essence of the discussion. I've read some of the materials sent to dealers on the EOP program, and I don't think that GM directly threatens dealers with punitive actions for not following the rules. GM does have some sway over dealers, though, and did strongly instruct dealers to follow the rules. Obviously, they decide who gets what vehicles, and suggestions from GM are supposed to carry a lot of weight. Manufacturers do step in from time to time to rectify situations.
Sydney said:
Finely Pontiac set out to sell the 1st 1000 to anyone who could get to their dealer first.
From the materials that was sent to dealers and the marketing surrounding the EOP program(it sounds as if you missed The Apprentice showings), GM most definitely did not want the EOP to degenerate into a short-lived, free-market profit orgy. With a car that gets people all emotional like this, I believe they had enough foresight to try to insulate the EOP process and win the hearts of as many customers as possible at the cost of extra profits in dealer pockets. It just makes sense. The EOP may be bad for profiteers in the short run, but it's a great opportunity for a desperately needed PR coup for GM.
 

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Remo said:
I guess I missed your point here- nothing wrong with selling a car for more than its worth? Uh...what? First, I'm all for the free market economy. If dealers want to apply sadistic markups to non- EOP vehicles, then that is what the car is worth. It someone pays it, there's the market supply and demand in action, and God Bless America. This is not, however, the elephant in the room that we were discussing.
You introduced ethics into the debate. I guess I must have missed your point.
My whole point was that an individual owner of a 1st 1K Solstice has the same rights to sell their for as much as they can get as the owner of any other car.
Remo said:
Well, yes, but that's a T.V. show, and I fail to understand how the television impacts the legal and ethical realities of this topic. Also, I don't think the show was about how low people would go, but about their professional performance and ethics. The inept and shady characters got fired.
To me the show just ties in with the "Greed" factor in this issue.
Remo said:
OK, now I think we're with the essence of the discussion. I've read some of the materials sent to dealers on the EOP program, and I don't think that GM directly threatens dealers with punitive actions for not following the rules. GM does have some sway over dealers, though, and did strongly instruct dealers to follow the rules. Obviously, they decide who gets what vehicles, and suggestions from GM are supposed to carry a lot of weight. Manufacturers do step in from time to time to rectify situations.
Again we dissagree. This point has little to do with the point I originally tried to make. That what on individual intents to do with thier property shouldn't be an autombile makers buisness. End of point.
Remo said:
From the materials that was sent to dealers and the marketing surrounding the EOP program(it sounds as if you missed The Apprentice showings), GM most definitely did not want the EOP to degenerate into a short-lived, free-market profit orgy. With a car that gets people all emotional like this, I believe they had enough foresight to try to insulate the EOP process and win the hearts of as many customers as possible at the cost of extra profits in dealer pockets. It just makes sense. The EOP may be bad for profiteers in the short run, but it's a great opportunity for a desperately needed PR coup for GM.
I never miss an opportunity to miss the Apprentice. :) Still in the end it was basically 1st 1000 to the dealers get the car irregardless of motives for wanting the car.

I guess we will just have to disagree on this . No biggie. :)
 
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