[kgschlosser]

See how the friction plate on the flywheel is bolted to the flywheel?

The clutch disc is also an 8 puck and not a 6 puck. Did you notice the rivets in the clutch disc do not go through the pads. There is also a lot more in the pay of rivets holding it together. I would be curious to know what the clamping force of the pressure plate is. It's got 2 sets of springs.

 

[kgschlosser]

The ARP bolts are 1mm shorter then the OE ones. It may say on the packaging what you need to torque them down to. I know it says on their website.

 

[kgschlosser]

Are the second set of springs in the pressure plate the same as the OE ones?

And the clutch disc has no markings on it what's so ever?

This is getting frustrating that all these companies have bloated claims for power handling and are rebranding cheap parts in order to get higher profits. The diaphragm spring is the same spring as the OE one?

 

[kgschlosser]

you bought the FX400 right??

What is the model number of the one you bought?

 

[kgschlosser]

This is what is being done.

The FX400 and the FX500 clutches that CM (ClutchMasters) sells only have a single difference between them. The FX400 has a sprung disc and the FX500 is unsprung.
there are 2 versions of those clutches. One is called a "Full Face" and the other is a "6 puck."

A Full Face clutch makes a full circle where as a pucked clutch doesn't.. A full face clutch as I would see it is like the OE clutch where the friction material makes a complete circle on both sides of the clutch. This is not what you have. you have what I would call is a hybrid. not really a full face and not really a puck clutch.

If you change nothing else in a clutch except the design of the disc and you go from a full face to a puck clutch there is an illusion that is given to the driver that the clutch is grabbing better because of the feel of it. It's all about PSI. with a full face the clamping force is distributed around the entire clutch face. with a puck clutch that surface area is much smaller so the PSI is higher. But the trade off is less friction material doing the grabbing and that is why i say it is an illusion.

The clutch you have is a hybrid. the friction material starts and stops like a puck clutch. It does this on both sides but it alternates from one side to the next It gives you the illusion but at a cheaper cost to build.

They use the term "Heavy Duty" do describe the pressure plate. My Question is heavy duty compared to what? compared to the OE pressure plate the statement is incorrect. compared to a moped clutch then yes I could be considered as heavy duty. This is misleading for them to do that. You are buying for your vehicle so the comparison you are making is to your vehicle. So the pressure plate is going to be of a better, stronger design then the OE one is. This is not the case.

I would be on the phone with them tomorrow and I would be asking questions like.. What makes this pressure plate heavy duty? and find out exactly what the clutch material is that is being used. I would mention to them that the pressure plate that you received is an OE pressure plate and how is that heavy duty when comparing it to the OE one. It's not.

Ask them to see the clutch dyno sheet where the clutch tasted at the rated power levels. If they are not able to provide that then ask them how they determined what the rating is. I bet you it has never been tested and the ratings are theoretical based on the friction coefficient, material contact area and clamping force.

They do not list the different torque ratings for the clutches. It would be interesting to see what the different ratings are for the different models.

 

[kgschlosser]

@HHGadget

If I get m a couple of measurements from the clutch disc I can tell you what would be needed in clamping force for your application. I can also give you an approximate on what the OE pressure plate clamping for is. an using that number I can tell you what the estimated theoretical torque rating would be for the new clutch

center of disc to outside edge of friction material
center of disc to inside edge of friction material

I also need the distance between the friction measured on the outside and inside as well.

I need those 4 numbers and I can do some math and we can see what would be needed and what the new clutch is.

 

[kgschlosser]

I think I found the LUK part number for the pressure plate.

Here are the part numbers that I found.

Pressure Plate: 124 0407 10
Clutch disc: 324 0430 10
Dual Mass Flywheel: 415 0318 10
Flywheel Bolts: 411 0159 10
Clutch Slave: 510 0230 10

Unfortunately they do not give any specifications other then the diameter being 240mm

 

[kgschlosser]

There is a way to reset the spring and set it to a higher amount of force. This process has been patented and I do not know who owns that patent. From my understanding it is a pretty involved process to do.

I spent last night educating myself on how a clutch is designed and the math behind it. The OE disc is a full face disc. The clutch material makes a 360° path around the disc. A puck disc has segments of friction material usually in 6 sections or 4 sections. A puck disc will be able to hold a higher amount of torque with the same clamping force as a full face disc. It comes at a cost tho. reduced life. @HHGadget ordered a full face disc and that is not exactly what he got. While the metal disc it's self is a full face the friction material is not.

 

[kgschlosser]

You are right about the model numbers. But actually look at your clutch disc. While the metal disc is solid and not like a "puck" disc the friction material is not. The friction material is about 1/2 of what the OE clutch is. That being done is going to increase the contact pressure at the friction material by almost double what the OE is. Downside is the clutch is going to last 1/2 as long as the OE clutch would. If you wanted a long lasting clutch capable of holding you would have to have the clamping force of the pressure plate increased by close to double what it is.

Did you ask them what the clamping force is of the modified pressure plate? If I know that and the measurements I asked for in a previous post I can tell you what the theoretical torque rating is going to be.

 

[kgschlosser]

If you want to get into the design I can take you all the way down that rabbit hole. Your brain will be hurting afterwards.

The hard part about the LUK pressure plate and the clamping force is that it's not a constant. You see those additional springs? Those are part of a centrifugal design that increases the clamping force as RPM increases. How effective it is, I couldn't tell ya, I would need to call LUK and ask them.

 

[kgschlosser]

I set up my portable garage and if it gets too hot out I can wheel the portable air conditioner out there and fire it up. It works more as a cooled fan as it is only able to lower the temp in the garage maybe a degree or 2 and that's it. but having it as a cooled fan really helps a lot.

 

[kgschlosser]

lookin good!!! Checking as you go is the right thing to do Bench bleed the clutch slave before you install it to save yourself some grief. I am pretty sure I told you how to do that on the phone. If you don't remember give me a call and I will tell you how to do it again. it will save your leg later on in the install. It won't get 100% of the air out and some leg exercise will need to be done but no where near the amount needed if you don't bench bleed it.

 

[kgschlosser]

The thing about dual mass flywheels is they act like harmonic balancers. So when you delete the dual mass flywheel you are actually removing one of the 2 harmonic balancers in the vehicle. The one on the front of the engine is going to be sized to handle anything the dual mass flywheel does not so when you remove the dual mass flywheel you are taking away a large portion of the harmonic balancing. companies like ATI an also Fluidampr make harmonic balancers for performance vehicle or vehicles that have been modified. Both ATI and Fluidampr both sell dampers that are NHRA complaint and with that in mind one of the very first things that would be removed on a race vehicle is the dual mass flywheel. One can hope/assume the damper is manufactured to compensate for the lack of a dual mass flywheel. I would think the damper is made to be used without a dual mass flywheel.


I have owned manual transmission vehicles for the entire time I have had my drivers license. I can tell you that the use of dual mass flywheels on a gasoline engine used in a car has not always been done. Most cars made in the 80's and 90's did not have dual mass flywheels. I have not once ever had the gear lash (gear chatter) that happens when removing the dual mass flywheel. So there has to be something the older vehicles have that eliminate it from happening. The only thing that comes to mind if the harmonic balancer is designed differently. The gear lash is being caused by the twisting of the drank shaft that occurs when a cylinder fires. The dual mass flywheel is designed to make shifting the vehicle easier but because of it's design it has got to partially act as a damper as well.

 

[kgschlosser]

there are no performance gains to be had.

Look at it this way.. sis you own a vehicle that was made in the late 80's early 90's that was a manual transmission? did it make this noise? There is a reason why it didn't which is more then likely the damper.