[TomatoSoup]

no good reason “I” can think of for a 09 n/a with 3300 miles on it to light up the dash like a Christmas tree

Well, your car - with only 3300 miles on it - is between 14 to 15 years old! Things age and things fail. In fact, the low mileage is probably a count against it as it hasn't been exercised enough over those years with only a couple hundred miles driven per year.

 

[billdaman]

In the scenario I described the ABS DID lock the tires as evidenced by the skid marks that I showed to the child’s parents as evidence of how close I came to hitting their child. But the ABS did a poor job in the 25 to 0 mph stop, and subsequently increased the stopping distance. My point is illustrated below:

Reference Physics community - stack exchange:

“A reason why ABS could lengthen the braking distance is because it is not perfect. It tries to achieve as much friction as possible, but needs to avoid the wheels locking up. That requires a iterative process: apply as much braking as possible, but back off when the wheels start to lock. As a result of that process, it will apply a little bit less than optimum braking force. If the static and sliding friction of the specific surface are almost identical (for example, on ice), then the resulting sub-optimal braking force may be less that the sliding friction”

And from Tire rack:

“Anti-Lock Braking Systems (ABS) By automatically intervening to prevent tires from locking up and to avoid uncontrolled skidding, an anti-lock braking system (ABS) allows tires to maintain rolling contact with the road surface when braking. ABS protects tires from flat-spotting by rapidly and repeatedly pumping the brakes faster than humanly possible. In addition to reducing tire damage, ABS offers improved vehicle control and generally decreases stopping distances on slippery roads.”

Man this banter is fun. If necessary I can engage a subject matter expert, and a 39 year in the industry pioneer in the development of several versions of modern ABS systems to provide an unbiased and professional opinion, perhaps backed by substantial test data, but I would rather lose this discussion point/argument and instead do a better job of making forum friends! 😃

Lastly my own experience with the DTS indicates that the overall performance of 2006 vintage General Motors Delphi ABS modules sucks 🤮

 

[RedOne07]

I think your basic assumptions are incorrect. You seem to have the impression (see my previous post) that locking wheels are good for braking distance. Be aware that locking wheels will result in a longer stopping distance.

 

[JohnWR]

I think that a stop from 25 MPH may not really be a good test any more than engaging 4WD in a pickup truck (as in the video you linked) provides a good comparison between having ABS on or off at 50 MPH. There is also the possible problem of prior training. Those of us that learned to drive prior to the introduction of ABS were taught to pump the brakes and to modulate pedal pressure to control lock-up. It was actually one of the more entertaining facets of driver education if your school had a thorough enough class syllibus. Our school had a super-slick asphalt strip at the back end of the student parking lot that could be wet down and we got to practice skid recovery, usually with pretty comical results. Pumping the brakes with ABS is, of course, very bad for good results, and it is incredibly difficult to un-learn, especially if you are switching between vehicles with it and without it.

I was out one day in the Sky when I topped a rise and saw a recumbent bicycle in the middle of my lane going very slowly very close in front of me, and with a truck in the oncoming lane. The cyclist paniced when he realized what was happening, fell over as he tried to maueuver to the side of the road, and I stopped with my front bumper slightly overhanging his rear tire. The truck stopped at the top of the rise to block the lane since, as the driver told me later, he assumed someone would have to collect a body from the road. I walked back to look for skid marks, as I heard the classic chirp-chirp-chirp as the ABS did its thing and wanted to see the results. And I needed to calm down. There were intermittent marks where it looked like each of the four wheels had locked briefly, all at different times.

Could a better driver have stopped faster without ABS? Maybe. I am pretty sure that I couldn't have. The car was still slightly light as it crested the hill, the road surface was not perfectly clear of gravel/dirt/etc, and there were some cracks and patches in the area. I am pretty happy that I had the ABS, but the other guy is quite a bit happier.

 

[wmf246]

I suspect that Bill's thought ( hope? ) was that removing the system completely would improve the braking over the failed condition and would eliminate the fault light. Since replacement of the module is not a guaranteed cure I can see the reluctance to go through the effort for uncertain results.

John

yes, it would be foolhardy to remove a safety device such as the ABS, it is your last sentence that sums up the dilemma.

i am perfectly capable even at my advanced age, to swap out parts; throwing good $ after bad $ is a waste my time and resources. BUT i will read the codes and post them

i have a number of older vehicles that never had ABS and i can drive them fine and safely. the solstice stops fine without working ABS, better than the corvette and the jeep; but it would be nice if it worked and the christmas lights on the dash went away.

thanks

Bill

 

[JohnWR]

John

yes, it would be foolhardy to remove a safety device such as the ABS, it is your last sentence that sums up the dilemma.

i am perfectly capable even at my advanced age, to swap out parts; throwing good $ after bad $ is a waste my time and resources. BUT i will read the codes and post them

i have a number of older vehicles that never had ABS and i can drive them fine and safely. the solstice stops fine without working ABS, better than the corvette and the jeep; but it would be nice if it worked and the christmas lights on the dash went away.

thanks

Bill

I completely understand, and agree.

 

[wmf246]

Well, your car - with only 3300 miles on it - is between 14 to 15 years old! Things age and things fail. In fact, the low mileage is probably a count against it as it hasn't been exercised enough over those years with only a couple hundred miles driven per year.

Soup

that is the only reasonable, if not understandable, explanation; my regularly driven vehicles have problems too tho..... . the older they are tho the less problems they seem to have

my 96 Caravan, purchased new, has less than 100K miles and other than bad paint, an inoperative vent window and door lock, bad subframe mounts (rattles) and having to charge the a/c occasionally will probably run forever

thank you

Bill

 

[wmf246]

John

this is the scan i did this morning, repeated several times. unless my scanner is faulty....

Bill

 

[rob the elder]

I had that show up when my battery was in the process of dyeing. When I put in the new battery the lights went away. Is it possible there is an electrical ground or supply problem to the ESC system?

 

[wmf246]

I had that show up when my battery was in the process of dyeing. When I put in the new battery the lights went away. Is it possible there is an electrical ground or supply problem to the ESC system?

Rob
i understand the difficulty of trying not to fix something that isn't broke, BUT the battery is not the original battery and has been on a maintainer since new and starts the car in a heartbeat (this morning). grounds, that is a whole different item.. obviously the main ground is good otherwise something should show up during start, so now it would see that if it is a ground problem then it should be something that is linked solely to the ABS system, nothing else appears to be affected...

🙄 🍻

Bill

 

[JohnWR]

@wmf246 : The EBCM (Electronic Brake Control Module) is grounded at G105, which is located on the frame rail at the left front corner of the engine bay. Look all the way forward, below the headlight.

Also, regardless of the cause, if you have a warning light you should have a code. Otherwise you have a system problem that should be affecting more than what you are seeing.

I looked up your reader and did not find anything that specifically references chassis codes, so I wonder if you are able to read them.

From the main menu of the scanner you should have an option labeled "DTC Lookup". I would go there and try to look up C0110 which is the code for Pump Motor Circuit Actuator Stuck. If it will not allow you to switch the P to a C you will know that you cannot use that scanner for this problem.

 

[wmf246]

@wmf246 : The EBCM (Electronic Brake Control Module) is grounded at G105, which is located on the frame rail at the left front corner of the engine bay. Look all the way forward, below the headlight.

Also, regardless of the cause, if you have a warning light you should have a code. Otherwise you have a system problem that should be affecting more than what you are seeing.

I looked up your reader and did not find anything that specifically references chassis codes, so I wonder if you are able to read them.

From the main menu of the scanner you should have an option labeled "DTC Lookup". I would go there and try to look up C0110 which is the code for Pump Motor Circuit Actuator Stuck. If it will not allow you to switch the P to a C you will know that you cannot use that scanner for this problem.

 

[wmf246]

John
i dug out my Autel MS906; for just a $1000 more than the other you get more information.....

Bill

 

[billdaman]

I suspect that Bill's thought ( hope? ) was that removing the system completely would improve the braking over the failed condition and would eliminate the fault light. Since replacement of the module is not a guaranteed cure I can see the reluctance to go through the effort for uncertain results.

Just to be clear, I would not remove an ABS system that was functioning as intended, if I had the choice between ABS or not ABS, I would choose ABS. This doesn’t change the fact that as a college student I proved several times with my BFF on a country road with identical vehicles, ABS and non ABS, I could consistently do shorter 60 to zero stops By 10+ feet. This was further reinforced by my own experiences in years afterwards (sometimes it just takes longer for ABS to do a panic stop) However, overall, in all driving conditions, considering all possible circumstances the ABS equipped vehicle should (with few exceptions like some GM mid 90’s vehicles where ABS was a POS) perform far superior WRT to safety than a non ABS vehicle.

Now if the discussion is on vehicle complexity, reliability, serviceability? Hands down non ABS wins. Just like I win every time against ABS on a dry roadway in a 60 to zero panic stop! 😂

 

[Lou O.]

Well, my 2 cents....take her to a good shop and have the entire brake system power flushed, perhaps twice. Pushing fresh DOT 4 fluid thru all the lines and ABS system just may free up any stuck valves, etc. Can't hurt, and should cost under $200. Try this first before killing off the system. Let us know if it worked, and good luck!!

 

[Richardhiatt]

The only problem with locked tires is zero ability to guide the car. The cars inertia determines where it's going to go. If you're heading in a straight line that's not a big problem but if you're on a curve it could be disastrous even on dry pavement.

 

[Richardhiatt]

You need to realize that your car is at least 13 years old. Seals, fluids, bushings deteriorate over time weather the car is driven or sitting in your garage.

 

[JohnWR]

I hadn't planned to revisit this thread, but this popped into my YouTube feed this morning:

 

[Richardhiatt]

It's pretty hard to out think a computer. Same thing with a manual transmission compared to a automatic. Even with a less than stellar launch the sol's automatic is slightly faster than the manual.

 

[Richardhiatt]

Thanks for posting that John. A few people need to see that video before they do something that could have disastrous consequences.