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If GM is really moving away from badge engineering, see other thread (http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2933), and they intend to do away with clone cars, then I have one simple question.

Why build the Saturn Sky?!? :confused:

All it is, is a clone of the Solstice. This is exactly the same thing as the;

Buick Lacrosse/Pontiac Grand Prix
Buick Terraza/Pontiac Montana
Pontiac Aztek/Buick Rendezvous
Buick Ranier/GMC Envoy

Why build a Solstice and a Sky?

My guess is they will want to see which one fairs better is sales, and drop one after a few years. which worries me :( cause I know people are going to go for the "bling bling" of the Sky, because it is gawdy and over-the-top :brentil: and most brainwashed americans love gawdy over-the-top things.

The people who love the pure, untainted look of the Solstice with get ousted due to a popularity cotest.

I still don't understand those two chrome tongue depressors they put on the Sky' hood?!?!?!:confused:
 

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Liam1694u said:
If GM is really moving away from badge engineering, see other thread (http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2933), and they intend to do away with clone cars, then I have one simple question.

Why build the Saturn Sky?!? :confused:

All it is, is a clone of the Solstice. This is exactly the same thing as the;

Buick Lacrosse/Pontiac Grand Prix
Buick Terraza/Pontiac Montana
Pontiac Aztek/Buick Rendezvous
Buick Ranier/GMC Envoy

Why build a Solstice and a Sky?

My guess is they will want to see which one fairs better is sales, and drop one after a few years. which worries me :( cause I know people are going to go for the "bling bling" of the Sky, because it is gawdy and over-the-top :brentil: and most brainwashed americans love gawdy over-the-top things.

The people who love the pure, untainted look of the Solstice with get ousted due to a popularity cotest.

I still don't understand those two chrome tongue depressors they put on the Sky' hood?!?!?!:confused:
With the exception of the Terraza and the new Montana, all of those vehicles are not the same. They do share the same platform, which all multi-brand auto companies do. Just b/c one car shares the same frame doesn't mean it's badge engineered. There are styling points, interior, handling & suspension, powertrain, more than just a nameplate. It's not the same as when a Regal was Cutlass was a Monte Carlo was a Grand Prix, with virtually NO difference in anything except the hood emblem. Also, how many people do you know that will only buy XXX Chevy truck) brand, even though YYY (GMC truck,) is so dang close enough that they wouldn't know the difference.

I guarantee that if you drove a Ranier and got into an Envoy, or a Lucerne and jumped into a Grand Prix, you would notice a significant difference. Buicks float on the road. They're marketed as near-luxury, just below Cadillac.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, he Torrent is a near clone of the Equinox, with the exception of the suspension & powertrain. It's just not as prevalent as it was 20 yrs ago.

Also Solstice vs. Sky....anybody remember a couple of cars called Camaro & Firebird?
 

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Because badge engineering to me means more then two cars. Most of the models in GM actually extend across like 3-5 different vehicles. For example the Theta platform consists of;

Saturn Vue
Chevrolet Equinox
Pontiac Torrent
Suzuki Grand Vitara

Having two cars on the same platform isn't too bad. Especially when they're designed for two different markets, and there's hopefully no overlap. Realisticaly, how would GM have actual cars in any lineup if they didn't use the same platform multiple times? They can't build a new platform for every car they have. It's not badge engineering that GM is doing away with, it's the overlapping of products that shouldn't exist, or fail to make sales.

So far the Solstice appeals to more people looking for a cheaper car, looking to race possibly, and like retro styling. The Sky will be more upscale, and suprisingly appeals to the tuner crowd more. As long as they stay in their respective markets and don't erode each others sales then it's a win for GM.
 

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Using the same Kappa platform as the Sol allows Saturn to market a sports car that it otherwise would not have. I see no problem with this. You won't find Pontiac and Saturn under the same dealership roof, just as you won't find Chevy and GMC truck together, (OK rarely). The problem I see and agree with is that as GM moves towards consoldiating GMC/Buick/Pontiac dealerships, crossover marketing of similar vehicles has to stop in order to maintain brand identity and interest. It doesn't make alot of marketing sense to see an Aztec and Rendevous at the same dealer.
 

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:brentil: :brentil: :brentil:

Why is it that when GM uses a platform under more than one people, they are criticized for badge engineering, but when any other company does it, they are applauded for creative engineering?

The Solstice and Sky share hard points, major components, and drivetrains. However, they have unique interiors, exteriors, driving characteristics, even different power outputs from the engine. Badge engineering is when you take identical cars, and essentially just change the name on them.

Should Nissan be criticized for badge engineering a 350Z from a G35? Toyota for badge engineering a Lexus ES300 from a Toyota Camry. Honda for badge engineering a Pilot SUV from an Acura MDX, or the RSX from the Civic?

What about Chrysler. Are they doing the wrong thing with their "Badge engineered" Charger and Magnum from the Chrysler 300? Or was it the poor decision of Mercedes to badge engineer all three from an E-class?

Everyone loves the Mazda3 compact, and the Volvo S40. Gee, how could they be good having been "badge engineered" from a Euro Ford Focus. Few people whined about the Ford 500's chassis and hardpoints coming from the Volvo S60.




None of these cars are badge engineered, even though they share platforms. Same go for the Sky/Solstice, or the G6 and Malibu and Saab 9-3. Each car is unique enough, or fundamentally different enough to be its own car.

No automaker will survive having all it's cars on unique platforms. They must be shared due to the high costs. Each model just needs to be clearly differentiated from each other.
 

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brentil said:
Because badge engineering to me means more then two cars. Most of the models in GM actually extend across like 3-5 different vehicles. For example the Theta platform consists of;

Saturn Vue
Chevrolet Equinox
Pontiac Torrent
Suzuki Grand Vitara
Isn't the new HHR on that platform too?
 

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Yeah I agree there is a difference between badge engineering and building off the same platform. The latter is a must to survive.
 

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Fformula88 said:
:brentil: :brentil: :brentil:

Why is it that when GM uses a platform under more than one people, they are criticized for badge engineering, but when any other company does it, they are applauded for creative engineering?

The Solstice and Sky share hard points, major components, and drivetrains. However, they have unique interiors, exteriors, driving characteristics, even different power outputs from the engine. Badge engineering is when you take identical cars, and essentially just change the name on them.

Should Nissan be criticized for badge engineering a 350Z from a G35? Toyota for badge engineering a Lexus ES300 from a Toyota Camry. Honda for badge engineering a Pilot SUV from an Acura MDX, or the RSX from the Civic?

What about Chrysler. Are they doing the wrong thing with their "Badge engineered" Charger and Magnum from the Chrysler 300? Or was it the poor decision of Mercedes to badge engineer all three from an E-class?

Everyone loves the Mazda3 compact, and the Volvo S40. Gee, how could they be good having been "badge engineered" from a Euro Ford Focus. Few people whined about the Ford 500's chassis and hardpoints coming from the Volvo S60.




None of these cars are badge engineered, even though they share platforms. Same go for the Sky/Solstice, or the G6 and Malibu and Saab 9-3. Each car is unique enough, or fundamentally different enough to be its own car.

No automaker will survive having all it's cars on unique platforms. They must be shared due to the high costs. Each model just needs to be clearly differentiated from each other.
My thoughts exactly...

In my mind, even at GM the days of "badge engineering" are over. When that was prevelent, just about the only thing they changed was the name, and possibly the grill. Case in point: the original Dodge Caravan, Plymouth Voyager, Chrysler Town and Country. They look identical, just about the only difference is the number of standard features.

These days, when they use the same frame/hardpoints, etc, they still style the vehicles differently. Using the kappa as an example, can you tell that ANY visible piece will be shared between the cars? Certainly no sheetmetal will be, I'm sure some things will be like the radio, but I'd be willing to bet even the feel of the seats will be different. So I would not call these two cars "badge engineered"
 

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At the Houston Auto show, they displayed both the Sky and the Solstice close enough to each other that you could see them both if you got far enough away. There's only so much you can do with a long hood, short deck, two seated roadster. Even though they were both a shade of silver, I was enthralled that GM was able to make them so different in style. I would have figured that, instead, one could have been made to be a modification of the other, but this was not the case. These were two completely different cars! If you said they were built on different platforms, by different companies, you would be believed. By appearance, the Solstice has more in common with the BMW Z4 than it does with the Sky.
 

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It they could change the rear of the Sky (make it a little longer) and remove the twin humps from behind the seats, it would really be its own car. In fact, give it a regular trunk lid like the Miata. This would give GM two different looking roadsters off the same platform. :cool:
 

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DreamerDave said:
Isn't the new HHR on that platform too?
HHR is off of Delta, with the Ion and Cobalt.

Delta in fact is a great example of cars sharing platforms that do not in any way resemble badge-engineered vehicles.
 

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I do not think the 2 cars are in direct competition, despite their similarities. Each car will draw on a different audience because visually they highlight different design elements. The two cars, arguably, look completely different.

Take, for example, the Lotus Elise and Opel (GM) Speedster (also Vauxhall VX220). Not only were they built on the same platform, the cars were built on parallel assembly lines. However, these cars were never sold together. One was sold at Opel dealers and the other Lotus dealers. They certainly did not look alike either. The Opel speedster, IMHO, is a bastardized version of the elise. It looks more like a Toyota Boxster (MR2) than an elise. But some people really prefered the Opel. Some people will prefer the Sky. That's what keeps things interesting.

Opel Speedster


Lotus Elise
 

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platform use

I had always assumed that _every_ car maker built different cars on the same platform. My favorite example is Hyundai, with the 4-door sedan Sonata and the midsize SUV Santa Fe sharing the same platform. You would certainly never confuse one with the other. :)

I see as many differences as similarities between the Solstice and the Sky. Personally, I like the Solstice better, but that is my opinion.

--Chemist
 

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stang said:
It they could change the rear of the Sky (make it a little longer) and remove the twin humps from behind the seats, it would really be its own car. In fact, give it a regular trunk lid like the Miata. This would give GM two different looking roadsters off the same platform. :cool:
hey! dont do that to my sky! do it to your own sol!

seriousely, i do not see these stealing from each other. heck, the only people that know they are built on the same platform are the people on here anyways. dont worry about it.
 

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I think the designer of the Sky used to love carving pumpkins as a kid. Way to many openings for my liking.

Hence, I doubt there will be much overlap in customers because the stying is so diverse.
 

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I guess we can all just make up our own definitions of badge enginneering. But I would prefer to at least attempt to find a common definition.

From Wikipedia (bold emphasis is mine):

Wikipedia said:
Badge engineering is a term that describes the rebadging of one model of car as another. This often occurs when two companies pool resources by operating a joint venture or merging their operations. While originally, differences were confined to the badges used on the model, more typically it involves slight styling differences, usually with different headlights and rear lights. It also occurs when an individual manufacturer owns a portfolio of different brands, and markets the same car under a different brand in different territories. Language problems can also mean that a car has to be given a different name in a certain country.
The Solstice and Sky are 2 different models. That is NOT badge engineering. The 2 cars are not identical cars with different names. They did not make minor trim changes between the 2 cars. Every single element of the exterior sheet metal and the interior design is different. That is not badge engineering. They are built with the same chassis and drivetrain. Otherwise they are completely different models. A far cry from putting Cadillac badges on a Chevy Cavalier. That is badge engineering.
 

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Jimbo, great job at finding the definition! :thumbs:

brentil said:
No, the HHR is the Delta (Cobalt, ION, 93, G4/Pursuit).
Brentil, what is the 93? You don't mean the Saab 9-3 do you? That car is on Epsilon.

For the Vitara/Grand Vitara, everyone is right. The current Vitara (2005 and older) is not built off the theta platform, and instead is a Suzuki platform dating back essentially to the old Suzuki sidekick. It also underpinned the now dead Chevy/Geo Trackers, and the Suzuki XC90).

The 2006+ Suzuki Grand Vitara is moving onto the Theta platform. Here is a pic of it at this site. I do not think it is on sale yet.

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000880043603/
 
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