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:patriot: Man I believe the union will lose this fight. Risky to me to strike with the threat of China.....Better take what they can get and keep it stateside........
 

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Detroit news

Thanks for the link, there are some interesting articles there! :willy:
 

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otalldon said:
:patriot: Man I believe the union will lose this fight. Risky to me to strike with the threat of China.....Better take what they can get and keep it stateside........
The problem is that it probably isn't worth accepting some of Delphi's demands, such as wage cuts from $27 to $9 an hour with an increase of health insurance costs for family coverage rising from $500 to $5000 a year. Those kinds of concessions would absolutely cripple nearly every Delphi worker. It's essentially asking them to take a $35,000+ pay cut before overtime, plus pick up $4500 in health costs. Their net pay for the year would be around $13,000 (again, before OT). :eek:

I bet that would bankrupt nearly all of their worker. They wouldn't be able to afford their homes or support their families. It would put them under the poverty line. They would end up having to find new jobs anyway.

They may feel a strike is the only way to try and salvage something, because at those pay and benefit levels, they really don't have much left to lose by striking.
 

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Yeah, but could also be first indication of relocation too. I am in manufacturing. Everyday we try to be more competitive with our competion and still increase the bottomline. Here we have empty factories everywhere that have gone to china. We used to think it was going to Mexico, but now it's China....
 

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Fformula88 said:
They may feel a strike is the only way to try and salvage something, because at those pay and benefit levels, they really don't have much left to lose by striking.
Or they could just move to another town and get a new job. Is Delphi commited to be their employer until they die? Learn a new skill. It's good for the mind and body.
 

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stang said:
Or they could just move to another town and get a new job. Is Delphi commited to be their employer until they die? Learn a new skill. It's good for the mind and body.
Maybe they would rather do something to save their current jobs and salaries, or at least get Delphi to negotiate a more reasonable salary rollback before they move somewhere else and/or learn a new skill.

In fact, I think that is a somewhat insulting response to manufacturing workers. Should we tell everyone in the country who's job could be in danger someday to simply cut line and go elsewhere, learn a new skill or trade, and start over?
 

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Fformula88 said:
Maybe they would rather do something to save their current jobs and salaries, or at least get Delphi to negotiate a more reasonable salary rollback before they move somewhere else and/or learn a new skill.

In fact, I think that is a somewhat insulting response to manufacturing workers. Should we tell everyone in the country who's job could be in danger someday to simply cut line and go elsewhere, learn a new skill or trade, and start over?
I just don't see how threatening to not work helps. It perverts the relationship. Nobody wins.

I'm from the camp of, if you hate your job, leave it. Some of the greatest companies were started by former employees of a larger company that was no longer competitive. If a company can't or won't pay for the best employees, it will show up in their product.
 

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stang said:
I just don't see how threatening to not work helps. It perverts the relationship. Nobody wins.

I'm from the camp of, if you hate your job, leave it. Some of the greatest companies were started by former employees of a larger company that was no longer competitive. If a company can't or won't pay for the best employees, it will show up in their product.
It can hurt the relationship, but that doesn't mean it cannot be affective, or ultimately improve things for both labor and management. This isn't about an individual disliking their job and quitting. It is about a labor force as a whole fighting for what they think is fair.

The idea in labor/management relations is that both sides get together and make reasonable compromises on issues to come to a contract that is suitable for both sides.

In the current Delphi situation, Delphi management has decided the current agreement is not acceptable as they are losing too much money under it. So they are asking the bankruptcy court judge to render that contract null and void, so they can force a massive pay cut on labor.

Labor is incensed by this and rightfully so. When labor signed the current contract, they had already made concessions to management to get and or keep the current working agreement as it is. The accepted a tiered pay scale where new hires were brought in cheaper than existing employees. They probably agreed to layoffs and a scaling back of the workforce. In return, management agreed to keep paying them what they were for the life of the contract.

Since management is now trying to breach that contract, labor is feeling like they have been stabbed in the back. A contract that was signed in good faith is about to be breached by management. I think the relationship is already well strained at this point.

Now labor can do three things. One, they can accept the changes and go along with it.

1) That probably means most of their workforce will have to quit and work elsewhere anyway. At any rate, labor is the big looser here, and if they all have to quit anyway they are no longer concered with the health of the company.

2) They could try to continue to bargain in good faith. BUT, management has shown that they no longer intend to bargain in good faith since they delared bankruptcy and intend to ask the court to allow them to breach the contract they signed in good faith.

3) They could strike in an effort to force management to offer a better concession than what is about to be forced on them. It may not work either. But the relationship is already extremely strained. A strike could not significantly hurt the relationship at this point. At worst, Delphi closes it's plants for good because of the strike. But realistically, it cannot replace the capacity of all of it's plants quick enough to meet GM's parts needs. So closing all plants is out of the question. Some are still essential to Delphi inm the short run.

As I see it, they have two realistic choices. They (labor) can take what is being forced on them. That will likely cost the union most of it's workers anyway, since they will have to leave to seek better paying employment. It is essentially an unconditional surrender.

Or, they can strike. They essentially have nothing to lose, and a lot to gain by striking. Even if that gain is an extremely long shot, it is a better option for labor than not trying.

I cannot imagine anyone, as a union or as an individual, not fighting to keep their job and pay if it were threatened as long as they had a chance to keep it.
 

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Fformula88 said:
It can hurt the relationship, but that doesn't mean it cannot be affective, or ultimately improve things for both labor and management. This isn't about an individual disliking their job and quitting. It is about a labor force as a whole fighting for what they think is fair.

The idea in labor/management relations is that both sides get together and make reasonable compromises on issues to come to a contract that is suitable for both sides.

In the current Delphi situation, Delphi management has decided the current agreement is not acceptable as they are losing too much money under it. So they are asking the bankruptcy court judge to render that contract null and void, so they can force a massive pay cut on labor.

Labor is incensed by this and rightfully so. When labor signed the current contract, they had already made concessions to management to get and or keep the current working agreement as it is. The accepted a tiered pay scale where new hires were brought in cheaper than existing employees. They probably agreed to layoffs and a scaling back of the workforce. In return, management agreed to keep paying them what they were for the life of the contract.

Since management is now trying to breach that contract, labor is feeling like they have been stabbed in the back. A contract that was signed in good faith is about to be breached by management. I think the relationship is already well strained at this point.

Now labor can do three things. One, they can accept the changes and go along with it.

1) That probably means most of their workforce will have to quit and work elsewhere anyway. At any rate, labor is the big looser here, and if they all have to quit anyway they are no longer concered with the health of the company.

2) They could try to continue to bargain in good faith. BUT, management has shown that they no longer intend to bargain in good faith since they delared bankruptcy and intend to ask the court to allow them to breach the contract they signed in good faith.

3) They could strike in an effort to force management to offer a better concession than what is about to be forced on them. It may not work either. But the relationship is already extremely strained. A strike could not significantly hurt the relationship at this point. At worst, Delphi closes it's plants for good because of the strike. But realistically, it cannot replace the capacity of all of it's plants quick enough to meet GM's parts needs. So closing all plants is out of the question. Some are still essential to Delphi inm the short run.

As I see it, they have two realistic choices. They (labor) can take what is being forced on them. That will likely cost the union most of it's workers anyway, since they will have to leave to seek better paying employment. It is essentially an unconditional surrender.

Or, they can strike. They essentially have nothing to lose, and a lot to gain by striking. Even if that gain is an extremely long shot, it is a better option for labor than not trying.

I cannot imagine anyone, as a union or as an individual, not fighting to keep their job and pay if it were threatened as long as they had a chance to keep it.

I am on your side on this one. I believe that the changes are TOO severe for ANYONE to take. I would challenge any company in the country to try something like this and see how the workers take it.

I do understand that the person sweeping the floors on the midnight shift does not need to be paid $25 dollars an hour. But the electronic technician that deals in the static free rooms that handle millions of dollars of product should be properly compensated. Because that is the high skilled job that cannot be easily replaced.
 

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stang said:
I just don't see how threatening to not work helps. It perverts the relationship. Nobody wins.

I'm from the camp of, if you hate your job, leave it. Some of the greatest companies were started by former employees of a larger company that was no longer competitive. If a company can't or won't pay for the best employees, it will show up in their product.
Fortunately, for some the news isn't the only way they get their information. The news has always found good copy at the expense of the labor unions. They continue to incite class envy by reporting inaccurate income and expenses, here-say, and downright lies. The people who think that unions have outlived their usefulness, invariably don't belong to one.

The other thing is just because the reader may be in his 20's, or 30's doesn't mean that the affected employees are. It is way more difficult to find an entry job if you're in your mid-50's. Likewise, people in their mid-50's have bills just like anyone else. How many people you know could go 10 or 12 months or more without a check. Unemployment $362/week for 26 weeks, don't go far.

The people who have made a good living without belonging to a union, have often said "I do fine without one". And, the employers will be there to tell you how much they appreciate you, and tell you that you don't need one. But as long as there is a union where someone makes a decent living, doing the same thing as you, the non-union shops are forced to keep pace with wages to keep talent. If you think it will be the same when the 'Delphi's' go to $9 an hour. The talent leaves there and starts looking for any work they can find. They will be more than happy to take the $20/hr job you do, and do it for $15. Do you think you Boss will keep paying you then.

stang said:
Or they could just move to another town and get a new job. Is Delphi committed to be their employer until they die? Learn a new skill. It's good for the mind and body.
Does the same hold true then?
If you think there is no talent in factories, you are mistaken. Some of the highest tech work around, goes on in there.

I'm not attacking Stang, please understand that. He is well entitled to his opinion. But, on a much larger global view, things are really getting bad and the future is very much in flux for many.

We can no longer exist with attitudes that echo this movie quote- "Sucks to be him, but I'm alright"

JMHO
 

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dealernut said:
I am on your side on this one. I believe that the changes are TOO severe for ANYONE to take. I would challenge any company in the country to try something like this and see how the workers take it.

I do understand that the person sweeping the floors on the midnight shift does not need to be paid $25 dollars an hour. But the electronic technician that deals in the static free rooms that handle millions of dollars of product should be properly compensated. Because that is the high skilled job that cannot be easily replaced.
I believe that Delphi purposely low balled the offer hoping it would cause a strike, thereby throwing it to the courts where both sides must accept.
The judge will come up with a number higher than the $9/hr. But whatever it is there will be some that won't be able to accept it, and will quit. Delphi makes out then, because they cut their workforce, and you don't have to pay retirement to someone that quits. They also have stockholders to answer to. A strike takes the burden off of Delphi, "We offered the best we could, and look what those unions have done now". A strike is really a win for Delphi, in a weird sort of way.
 

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MI Sol said:
I believe that Delphi purposely low balled the offer hoping it would cause a strike, thereby throwing it to the courts where both sides must accept.
The judge will come up with a number higher than the $9/hr. But whatever it is there will be some that won't be able to accept it, and will quit. Delphi makes out then, because they cut their workforce, and you don't have to pay retirement to someone that quits. They also have stockholders to answer to. A strike takes the burden off of Delphi, "We offered the best we could, and look what those unions have done now". A strike is really a win for Delphi, in a weird sort of way.
I tend to agree with this too. Delphi purposely gave a figure they new that labor absolutely would not and could not accept.
 

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It isn't rocket science to figure out which looks better on your P&L statement,
$ 1.85 an hour pacific rim landed US or $22. with benefits "Made in the USA".
Walmart happened to be first but there are a lot of companies on learning trips to Bejeing, a favorite starting point. It is a growth destination for the major carriers.
 

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I don't want to get into a debate about Unions, because I know how those threads end (locked). Plus, I like the playful atmosphere of Solstice Forum. ;)

Here is my honest take on Delphi: Shut down. If they can't find employees that want to work, shut down the plant. Sell off all of the assets and give the stock holders their money back. Business is an investment in capital, people, and ideas. If you are missing any one of the three you are doomed to failure.
 

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stang said:
Here is my honest take on Delphi: Shut down.
It is on it's way. At least as far as US based manufacturing goes.
 
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