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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
UPDATE!
Took my car into the dealership and told them about the code for P0301 and all of the symptoms. Left it there and told them to do an engine diagnostic. Later in the day they called me and told me there was a TSB from GM telling them what to do when these symptoms start to show up on all 2.0 turbo engines. Basically it is due to much carbon build up inside the intake and exhaust. This is what my ticket said:

26298 MISFIRE ON COLD START. FIS 1.30 #PIP5029B: Engine Misfire Due to Major Carbon Deposits On The Intake And Or Exhaust Valves - (Sept 24, 2012). PERFORMED INDUCTION SERVICE AND FUEL SYSTEM SERVICE, ADDED FUEL TREATMENT TO FUEL SYSTEM. MAY TAKE SOME DRIVING/MILLAGE TO FULLY TREAT ISSUE. TK12636

So it looks like they did not run an engine diagnostic on my car, but instead just ran the code through GM's computer system to let it tell them what to do. My total out the door was $96.58 Originally they quoted me $230.00 out the door, but when I went to pick it up, they changed the price, said it was because the diagnosis. The engine diagnostic along is usually $109.00

I told them that I already added a high quality/industrial dealership bought fuel injector cleaner, but they insisted that it be added when doing the the fuel system treatment along with the induction cleaner. Bill says this was used:

1 93000 3 PT INDUCTION CLEANER - $62.94
1 88861013 CLEANER - $26.28


The second one is the fuel injection cleaner, which I did myself last week and used 1 full tank of gas. I asked them if doing it again back to back was safe, and they said it was okay to do. I did not know about the carbon build up on the intake and exhaust valves. Hopefully this will solve my problem. Next thing I'm going to buy is an oil catch can from DDM Works. I will keep everyone posted on my car.
 

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The carbon build up on the valves, is a common issue with DI. But typically, unless you drive like grandma all the time, it will not result in noticeable symptoms.

I was there when they pulled my first engine apart at 37,000 miles: The internals looked in perfect condition and pristine. You could even still see the the OEM cross-hatch marks on the cylinder walls. There was just a coat of carbon build up on the valves, but no "hot spots" or "clumps" of carbon. Nothing much more than I would expect from any engine.

Here are a couple pictures:
(You will notice the residual oil laying around from disassembly that looks like yellow cream, that is another story. :lol:)



You can also see a little ring of carbon at the very top of the cylinders in this picture, right where the piston throw ends. Again, not really anything more than I have seen in about any disassembled engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #44 (Edited)
Since I bought the car with 20K miles on it and it was an 08', there is not telling me what type of quality gas the previous owner used. I only use Shell Premium or chevron with Techtron. I think the previous owner did not drive it much and it sat in their driveway for long periods of time. They may have used crappy gas and oil for all I know. It's possible a grandma may have owned it too. ;)

The original spark plugs were still in it when I changed them out. I only use full synthetic mobil 1 oil on my cars. Sounds like my car just need a good tune up and put into the hands of some one who loves their car. I can tell already the car engine is running much smoother and a little bit quieter when idling.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
The Oil Catch Can (though possibly a good idea) probably won't reduce carbon build up. That's a natural by-product of both the efficient burn and the lack of 'fuel wash' in a direct-injection engine.

Direct Injection Fouls Some Early Adopters - AutoObserver
Yeah, but I figured it couldn't hurt. Anything I can do to "help" the engine will be good. I am also looking at buying the new DDM Works in-line fuel filter.
 

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If the previous owner drove it like a regular car meaning, his/her shift points were below 2500 RPM there is going to be carbon build up in the engine.
Also if he/she start it and let it idle instead of driving it, that will also will contribute to excess carbon build up.
I strongly believe your problem is related to the previous owner, hope the dealer is right and the work they did will fix it for you.
 

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If they used BG, I can tell you, it will definitely work if it was carbon. I had it done on my Mustang GT at 70k. I went from not being able to get out of my own way, to having so much acceleration, I thought they replaced my motor. I also went from 19mpg to almost 22mpg after it and was able to use 87 octane with no engine knock instead of having to run 91+.

What they do is dump a can in the gas tank, then they usually take a fuel line and pressurize the intake can of BG with their air hose and inject it into the fuel line and "fog" the motor to dissolve the carbon (or at least that's what they did with my Mustang). It's really quite neat to watch, especially if they forget to hook up the exhaust hose to vent the exhaust outside. The exhaust is usually pure solid white and very thick (about what you see in the movies from a smoke screen). It's that way until that pressurized can is gone and the engine stalls out from lack of fuel (about 3 min).
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
If they used BG, I can tell you, it will definitely work if it was carbon. I had it done on my Mustang GT at 70k. I went from not being able to get out of my own way, to having so much acceleration, I thought they replaced my motor. I also went from 19mpg to almost 22mpg after it and was able to use 87 octane with no engine knock instead of having to run 91+.

What they do is dump a can in the gas tank, then they usually take a fuel line and pressurize the intake can of BG with their air hose and inject it into the fuel line and "fog" the motor to dissolve the carbon (or at least that's what they did with my Mustang). It's really quite neat to watch, especially if they forget to hook up the exhaust hose to vent the exhaust outside. The exhaust is usually pure solid white and very thick (about what you see in the movies from a smoke screen). It's that way until that pressurized can is gone and the engine stalls out from lack of fuel (about 3 min).
Funny you mentioned BG, because that's exactly what I bought and used myself a week ago. I had to buy it online because no one sold it over the counter. I bought the fuel injector cleaner. My car did start to run better, but it did not fix my rough idle problem completely. The rough cold-start up did almost disappear completely, but I was no certain was fixed for good. This is why I was surprised when they said they recommended a fuel system treatment. Although I did not do the direct injection part as you described. Hopefully their way was done the way you described it and will be better now.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
So far the car has been running good all weekend with no problems. This morning however when I went uphill on a steep incline to go into our parking garage here at work, the car started with the shudder again after I came to a stop and parked it. Could the steep incline have forced some debris at the bottom of the tank into the fuel line? I let it sit a few minutes but the shudder was still there when I turned off the car. I really hope this goes away soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
UPDATE! Rough idle gone after TerraClean Decarb Treatment done. Basically after going to my local GM dealership they performed the basic recommended treatment for heavy carbon build up, which was what I mentioned earlier in my post, "engine treatment" and "Fuel Injector" treatment. It definitely helped eliminate the cold start issue I was having in the mornings and did help with my very small rough idle, but I wanted the rough idle gone completely. After the GM service my car was running better but I knew it could still use another better cleaning. The dealership told me to bring it back if the rough idle persisted but I'm not sure what more they could have done to improve the performance other than what they have already tried. So I did allot of research on the best way to thoroughly clean the excessive carbon build up inside the engine without taking it apart and found a machine process called TerraClean Decarbinization. Basically it's a machine that uses a 2 step process to pressurize the fuel rail and gas tank while adding the fuel injector cleaner and a separate solution that is used for the intake and exhaust valves. Here is a link to the video to show you what was done in detail. TerraClean This process really works.
If anyone has major carbon build up and wants a thorough cleaning, then this is the ONLY way to go in my opinion. Immediately after driving my car I could feel and tell an improvement. The rough idle is completely gone and the car drives like new again.
 

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Discussion Starter #52 (Edited)
So did you have this done at a local shop? Or did you have to go on a quest to find someone with the machine?
Yeah, I had to first call the 1-800 number, then they gave me a number for Texas, then another local number for a Dallas shop. Not all dealerships have these. I found several at Kwik Kar service centers. For some reason allot Chrysler dealerships seem to use these machines too, but not all GM dealerships. These machines should be mandatory. I think this is a good preventative maintenance that should be done at least 1 a year.
 

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What shop did you end up using and what was the cost for the service? I can't say I have any issues, but this service certainly can't hurt.
 

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Yep....same exact thing we used to do with the BG Products....
 

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Discussion Starter #55
What shop did you end up using and what was the cost for the service? I can't say I have any issues, but this service certainly can't hurt.
Kwik Kar service on Inwood Rd. in Dallas, Tx. Cost $114.00
 

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I haven't been on in a few months so I just got caught up on your situation as this is news to me and my wife owns an 08. Good news on your situation. Did you change the oil after you had that service done?
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I haven't been on in a few months so I just got caught up on your situation as this is news to me and my wife owns an 08. Good news on your situation. Did you change the oil after you had that service done?
The major carbon build up is only with the GXP engines. It can happen to any year with a turbo. I did the oil change before all of these symptoms started. I always use full synthetic Mobil1. I'm not sure if the previous owner used quality gas and full syn oil, so it really depends on how well you treat your car. My car runs fine now. I always use Chevron with Techtron or Shell V-Power gas. Both premium grades. Basically when it comes to the turbo, if you use crappy gas and crappy oil changes you will see the carbon build up much faster. If you use Seafoam fuel injector cleaner after every oil change, you should be fine as long as you keep using quality gas and oil. I say this because after my service at the dealership I went to KwiK Kar to have the TerracClean service done and one gas tank later followed it up with the Seafoam fuel injector cleaner. Now the shudder is completely gone and I know as long as I keep the injectors, intake and exhuast valves clean the problem should stay gone.
 

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My '08 GXP has 24,000mi on it and I have never experienced this at all and now that I hear about it, I hope that I don't!
 

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The major carbon build up is only with the GXP engines. It can happen to any year with a turbo. I did the oil change before all of these symptoms started. I always use full synthetic Mobil1. I'm not sure if the previous owner used quality gas and full syn oil, so it really depends on how well you treat your car. My car runs fine now. I always use Chevron with Techtron or Shell V-Power gas. Both premium grades. Basically when it comes to the turbo, if you use crappy gas and crappy oil changes you will see the carbon build up much faster. If you use Seafoam fuel injector cleaner after every oil change, you should be fine as long as you keep using quality gas and oil. I say this because after my service at the dealership I went to KwiK Kar to have the TerracClean service done and one gas tank later followed it up with the Seafoam fuel injector cleaner. Now the shudder is completely gone and I know as long as I keep the injectors, intake and exhuast valves clean the problem should stay gone.
Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked if you changed after the cleaning service is you should always change your oil afterwards not before. All injector cleaners (BG, Chevron, Seafoam, etc)can and will get past the rings and into the oil, especially if you do it right and let it soak in the cyclinders, and that is not good. I know most of them are of petroleum based but they don't mix well and you will contaminate the fresh oil you just changed. I tried to find the article I read this on but can't find it. I also read about this on BITOG forum some years back too. Just some fyi and I am glad to hear you got this problem solved.

My wifes 08 was bought used like yours but only had 3400 miles on it so not too much could have been done by purchasing crap gas. She knows to only run top tier gas in it and 92 or higher octane.
 

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Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)
Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked if you changed after the cleaning service is you should always change your oil afterwards not before. All injector cleaners (BG, Chevron, Seafoam, etc)can and will get past the rings and into the oil, especially if you do it right and let it soak in the cyclinders, and that is not good. I know most of them are of petroleum based but they don't mix well and you will contaminate the fresh oil you just changed. I tried to find the article I read this on but can't find it. I also read about this on BITOG forum some years back too. Just some fyi and I am glad to hear you got this problem solved.

My wifes 08 was bought used like yours but only had 3400 miles on it so not too much could have been done by purchasing crap gas. She knows to only run top tier gas in it and 92 or higher octane.
Yes, I understand what you are saying about changing the oil after adding BKG and Seafoam, but the stuff I added was only to the fuel injection, not the crank case. Both companies DO offer oil additives and say to change the oil soon after, but those were not the 2 products I bought. I read the instructions for both and both my products were for the fuel system only. Seafoam says IF you add it to the crank case/oil you must change the oil after running it for about 15 minutes. I did not use it for that reason. BKG sells 2 separate products, one is an engine enhancer that is added to the oil and the other is added to the fuel tank. So far I have not bought anything for the fuel tank. However the dealership did add something to the engine as a cleaner and said there was no need to change the oil. That was the first thing I did before I tried cleaning the fuel injectors better and then went with the TerraClean followed up by the Seafoam fuel cleaner. Hope this helps.
 
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