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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have two Fieros and an Olds Intrigue and have been a fan of GM for YEARS.
BUT Why do they make the ugliest cars on the road? Well Hyundai is much wors so GM has some room to get wors :rolleyes: But realy when will GM make cars that look cool and perform to expectations?
I have been saying for a while now that GM needs to offer a V6 in the KAPPA but I only get strage remarks from people about how a 170HP I4 is all that is needed for a 3000pound car? :leaving:
I see that GM has made great cars before and they do have some great cars now (how else would they still be in buisness?" but overall why are they so far off target? Is there "bulls eye" in fantisy land? GM = "Dont wory, people will buy it because it is a GM no matter how ugly it (Azteck) is or how underpowered it is (HHR)" Do they realy think people will buy under powered sports cars or ugly people movers for ever? With a 30,000mile/three year waranty how can they go wrong :rolleyes: The only thing they have going for them right now is SUV's/Trucks (not the HHR, this isa bad thing........very bad thing), Caddy and the Vette.
The KAPPA is a GREAT opertunity for GM to get back the respect they once had. GM PLEASE MAKE THE KAPPA a world class sports car, not just another "castrated car" Give it a 280HP High Value VVT 6speed V6 to compete with the Nissan 350Z. The engine is in your hands, the car is ready for domination, GIVE IT TO US.

Thank You Rick :rant:
 

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Rick'

Other than the bland styling, and the riduculous gouging, what's wrong with the GTO? 2+2 seating, coupe, hardtop, RWD...

Re-style it (which I think they are, along with a new platform - called the Zeta, I think or there's a bunch of info over at Troy's GTO forum or GMI), keep the horses under the hood... it's already proved to be a decent drifting car.

If you want road-ripping power, what is wrong with the 'vette? It holds two golf bags, and has all the goodies you want, or you can strip it out to be an amazingly competent race car.

As much as we are enamoured with the Kappa, it has it's flaws:

1) It was designed to be a convertible. This makes the structure heavier than it needs to be. If it were never a 'vert, just a fixed roof coupe, I'd bet you could drop 200# and pick up a BUNCH of body stiffness.

2) It's big. Wide. 1" narrower than the 'vette. ALMOST 4" WIDER THAN A COBALT. This has effects we haven't felt yet - from cone sighting on an AutoX course to lane awareness. It's almost too big for what it should be - but again, that was dictated by styling.

3) It's really just a niche platform. Something built to get the "show car" into "production". And it comes with a bunch of packaging compromises, and extra eyecandy with a very heavy emphasis of form OVER function.

4) Being a 'vert, there are inherent issues with exposed craniums. Folks like you and me will likely put some sort of roll bar in the car. But performance convertibles are really a thing almost of the past - I'm surprised the safety diehards haven't found a way to justify outright banning of 'verts or requiring some sort of protection standards. You really can't get on to a track (or shouldn't) without roll protection - and it's not something to take lightly. Stuff happens. Then again, I stopped riding motorcycles a long time ago 'cause I just didn't feel safe.

Having presented the counterpoints, let me tell you, I'm just playing dev's adv.

GM!!! Attention!!!

Please listen to Rickady88GT. If you want a "turn and look at me", "gotta have", "low volume", "collectible" niche car, you MUST AMAZE us within the next year.

You've got the "Kappa buzz", but if you don't follow it up with something soon, the Kappa WILL BE THE NEXT FIERO. I really want to buy my next generation Kappa in 2012 - but then I'll be really in a mid-life crisis and need the car that Rickady88GT is talking about.

High Value V6 280 hp, small V8 at over 350 HP, if not this generation, then you had better follow through in the next. If you have time. If you can stay ahead of Toyota globally.

If not, maybe you should think about trying to bring it to the table sooner...

Peace.

Out.
 

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Since we're making open appeals to GM...

Dear GM,

Here's an idea for you, make your regular sedans, coupes and wagons look awsome and inspiring, kinda like Chrysler is doing now, and you won't have to spend money on "niche" and "halo" cars to get people into the dealerships. There really is no excuse for bland, boring and down right ugly design. You used to know this better than anyone.

A few years back, you ran an ad for the new Impala that featured the very popular '63 Impala. It was supposed to draw a heritage connection (and maybe pander to the hispanic buying population), but all it did was show how great your cars used to be and how unremarkable they are now. Take your designers to a classic car show and ask them why people are spending tens of thousands dollars, and thousands of hours of their own money and labor, that they will never see again, to restore what used to be regular ol' bread and butter sedans, coupes and wagons to thier former glory. Then go back to the design studio and think about that.

Maybe bring some of the old designers that are still alive back in as consultants or inspirational speakers. Maybe put on a slide show and old movie day for your young designers, and prop open thier eye lids like they did in Clock Work Orange if that's what it takes. Some of that good ol' design sense has to rub off. Just crack open the history books, you once had an impressive catalog of inspiring offerings. Sure, they weren't all classics, but many are destined to be. From what you offer now, I don't see much at all that will escape the crusher.

I realize that the new cars are technicaly far superior. They're more efficent, pollute less, last way longer, quieter, safer, handle much better, stop better and in some cases, are even faster, but still they fail to inspire. You've done much commendable work to satisfy our analytical brains, now it's time to appeal to our hearts. While it is imposible and not really desirable to simply recreate the past, and time surely marches on, the spirit of those old cars can, and is being reborn by some of your competitors. To win back buyers from the foriegn competion, who buy the way has the analytical brain thing wired, you need to make cars that are less appliances and more possesions. To go from "I have" to "I own" in people's minds and hearts.

Your halo projects like the Solstice, SSR, and Corvette have this spirit, why not the sedans too?? Make the whole product line be the lure, not just one or two cars. I don't have to tell you that the American car market buyer is about as sophisticated and tough to please as any in the world, and I don't have to tell you that the competition is fierce, but it seems to me that the weak point in your offerings, and more importantly, many of your competitors, is styling and design.

As Americans, we are at a point that we are no longer satisfied with beige Maytag jelly beans in our drive ways. We want more. You thrilled my father's, and my grandfather's, and my great grandfather's generation, now my generation wants that thrill too. You can do it!

A concerned American car enthusiast.
 

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Actually perhaps Rick is on to something...

GM: Please produce a car for me with 90% of the Vettes performance and content for less than 50% of the price. Come on give the people what they want.





BTW here is a picture of MY "ugly" POS Hyundai. Funny, but I must have missed all the vehicles GM had at $18k US that looked as good as this car. I guess I was mistaken and all people turning their heads when I drive by was because they have never seen such a gawdy looking piece of ****?


 

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I am not sure I like the direction this thread is taking. But here we go.

I see two main issues you bring up in your post. GM styling is sub par, and GM’s power is sub par. Are they? In some places yes, in others no.

Styling: Most of their cars are meant to serve as appliances to average people who are not huge enthusiast. Cars like Malibu’s, Century’s, etc. To try and avoid offending their core buyers, those cars are conservatively styled. They each have their own looks, to differentiate the brands. The Malibu has a slightly chunky look to it to me, but I wouldn’t call it ugly. At least no worse than a Camry or Accord. Its overall pretty plain, and that is the idea. Keep it conservative enough so it doesn’t offend too many buyers that just want the vehicle as a reliable appliance. Sometimes they do drop the ball, like the Aztek, but that’s the only car I would really call a poorly styled car in GM’s lineup.

Their enthusiast cars are a lot better IMO. The GTO is still plain, but it’s a band aide car and with the hood scoops it looks better too. The Sky and Solstice are great, the Corvette looks really good, and the SSR is really neat to look at. Cadillac is love it or hate it, but I do like the XLR roadster. The sedans, not so much, but they have been successful too.

I agree there is not much excitement except for a few niche vehicles, and they could gain some areas with some more exciting cars. I think the G6 coupe and verte could be a little better for example. They are not bad, but they won't stand out from the Accord coupes and Solara coupes of the world either.

Power: Again, you can find plusses and minuses. I’ll start with the HHR. It’s a Delta platform derived wagon. Essentially a wagon version of a Cobalt. Being such, its getting Cobalt engines. Is that underpowered? Maybe for a sports car enthusiast, but not for the market segment it will play in. Competitors are likely to be the PT Cruiser, with similar 4 banger engines (except the top of the line turbo), the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix with less powerful engines, the Mazda3 with similar power outputs, Focus 5 door hatches and wagons with similar power, Kia Spectra5’s with similar power numbers from 4 bangers, and on and on. It will match the power levels accepted in its market segment, so I am not sure its underpowered. It may not be to the liking of an enthusiast that wants more power, but its not targeted at those buyers either.

As far as Kappa goes, its been beaten into the ground on the forum. Like the SSR, it has similar power to other offerings in its market segment. That may not be enough power for some enthusiast, but GM is not trying to target every enthusiast with this platform right now either. GM wants to go after the 4 cylinder, $20K roadster market and has made the car fit that market appropriately.

Now that is not an attack on you or your desire for a more powerful Kappa product, so please don't take it as such. Its simply an explanation of where GM is at right now, for the current car and its first year. Their product model for the Solstice calls for a 4 cylinder, $20K roadster to compete at the bottom end of the sports car market against competitors like the Miata. So the car matches that model. For now, it is what it is. If and when GM decides to target the middle of the sports car market, you may very well see V6 engines, more features, fancier tops, any number of things of that nature. Its certainly worth telling GM that is what you want them to build too, because if they think there is a market for it they will try and build it. Right now they think there is a market for a 177 HP $20K roadster, so that is what they are building.

Some will be happy with the Solstice, others will wish for more. But it is what it is for the time being.
 

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Its not at all that 177 hp is all that's needed in Kappa. When has GM ever brought out the highest hp version of a car first and then introduced stripped-down versions for the masses. Never. It's not that it takes a V6 or a V8 to create a solstice that will get the attention of Mustang drivers. The GTO and the Mustang are closer alike than they are apart - wait till gen II of the new GTO.

It is also not impossible to get your desired 350 hp out of a 2.4 I4 with the proper additions and massaging. 250 would probably be more than enough, and consider that right now crate 2.0 with S/C get 205, so 250 with S/C on a 2.4 seems to me easy as pi.
 

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Nice car, Darkhamr! I've like the latest-gen Tiburon's styling from the get-go. However, I think it's the only bright spot (styling-wise) in Hyundai's lineup. But people should watch out for Kia/Hyundai in a generation or two... they're improving their cars at a scary rate.

To Rickady88GT: Perhaps you're feeling the mid-level performance car void in GM's lineup? Perhaps if/when the new Camaro is released then it will be more in line with what you're hoping the Kappa cars to be? I could see the next-gen Camaro taking the 350Z head-on (in price, performance, target customers, etc.). Both would offer nearly Corvette performance for half the price. Or am I way off on this one?
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Darkhamr, If it turns you on roll with it.
I think it is a poor attempt at ripping off a Ferrari style. But that is just my opinion. Lots of people talk trash about the cars I have, but they are my cars and I am the one that likes them. So I could not care less what other people say about my choice of cars. I did not bring up your brand of car as an atack on you, I just have a beaf with the Hyundai Corp for YEARS. In my opinion they make ugly cars, you like yours but can you show a pic of another "Good Looking Hyundai" This is a GM based forum, why does it suprize you that I or some one else takes shots at other manufacturers? Like I said I am not taking a shot at you, I dont even know you and have no reason to attack you. I am looking out for GM and could not care less what happens to Hyundai? I am the type of person that will give credit were it belongs and Hyundai just dont deserve it. It is NOT an attack on you or any other Hyundai owner.
This is my opinion and I endorce this opinion. Rick

BTW What exactly is wrong with wanting Corvette performance for $30,000? Nissan 350Z fans expect nothing less? And the after market is HUGE because of the popularity of the Z. I want that kind of succsess in one of GM's affordable cars. The VETTE is way to much money for meand others. And way to many extra goodies, just give me the power and performance in a car that ALOT of people can afford to buy and compete with.
 

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ho2go said:
To Rickady88GT: Perhaps you're feeling the mid-level performance car void in GM's lineup?
I think I was skirting this idea, and Ho2go just said it more eloquently. GM has a hole in its lineup. They have no sports cars under $45K Corvettes. Nothing to match up to the high $20K and low $30K sports cars from competitors such as the RX-8, 350Z, Crossfire, etc.

The Camaro could be that car, but it and the next GTO will have to be somewhat different than the current GTO. Although I think the GTO is a great musclecar, its not the same kind of car as those sports cars are. GM needs something a little more svelte than the GTO to go directly head to head in the $30K sports car market. When they designed the C5 FRC, they intended to strip it down and compete at a lower price, but demand for C5's was so good they didn't have to. Unfortunately, they didn't have a plan B either.

GM has had other holes too. They really have not fielded a legitimate sports coupe in the mold of a Acura RSX, Toyota Celica, Mitsubishi Eclipse or Hyundai Tiburon. The Grand Am tried to fill that role, but it was sorely inadequate to compete with those cars. The G6 coupe might, but it looks a little big to compete too. Cobalt SS could too, but its more of a pocket rocket than a true sport compact.

GM has left a lot of holes in their lineup for enthusiats for a long time!
 

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Rickady88GT said:
BTW What exactly is wrong with wanting Corvette performance for $30,000? Nissan 350Z fans expect nothing less? And the after market is HUGE because of the popularity of the Z. I want that kind of succsess in one of GM's affordable cars. The VETTE is way to much money for meand others. And way to many extra goodies, just give me the power and performance in a car that ALOT of people can afford to buy and compete with.
Nothing. BTW what is wrong with family sedans that outperform every car from the 60s and 70s that didn't have a prancing horse or bull on the side of the hood? Nothing. What I want is the new Caddy 5 sec 0-60 performance in a Pontiac Grand Prix (G8?) with enough cash leftover for my 177hp Solstice.
 

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Rickady88GT said:
BTW What exactly is wrong with wanting Corvette performance for $30,000? Nissan 350Z fans expect nothing less? And the after market is HUGE because of the popularity of the Z. I want that kind of succsess in one of GM's affordable cars. The VETTE is way to much money for meand others. And way to many extra goodies, just give me the power and performance in a car that ALOT of people can afford to buy and compete with.
:agree: I couldn't agree more with you. Nissan's Z has near-Corvette performance at a pretty affordable price. My point was that perhaps this mission will fall to the next-gen Camaro/GTO, and not the Solstice. Perhaps GM actually had the foresight to limit the Sol's performance so as to not intrude into the next-gen Camaro/GTO's market.

So this is not an attack on you! It just makes too much sense to me to have a 3-tier performance car menu: Solstice, Camaro/GTO, Corvette. If you want more performance then just move up to the next tier.
 

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Fformula88 said:
GM has had other holes too. They really have not fielded a legitimate sports coupe in the mold of a Acura RSX, Toyota Celica, Mitsubishi Eclipse or Hyundai Tiburon. The Grand Am tried to fill that role, but it was sorely inadequate to compete with those cars. The G6 coupe might, but it looks a little big to compete too. Cobalt SS could too, but its more of a pocket rocket than a true sport compact.
Yes, I've felt the same thing for a long time too. GM definitely needs a sport compact. But I'll have to disagree with you and say that the Cobalt SS *is* GM's answer to the RSX, Celica, etc. The Cobalt SS should offer GREAT performance for the money. So we know GM's capable of it. :) Now like you, I, and Rickady88GT have alluded to, there are other holes in GM's lineup that need to be filled!
 

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ho2go said:
Nice car, Darkhamr! I've like the latest-gen Tiburon's styling from the get-go. However, I think it's the only bright spot (styling-wise) in Hyundai's lineup. But people should watch out for Kia/Hyundai in a generation or two... they're improving their cars at a scary rate.
You are quite right, styling has been not been their highest priority to date. That will change now that they have the quality and value to pretty much match anyone. They are only infants in the auto market learning to crawl. They will soon be ready to walk.


Rickady88GT said:
Darkhamr, If it turns you on roll with it.
I think it is a poor attempt at ripping off a Ferrari style. But that is just my opinion. Lots of people talk trash about the cars I have, but they are my cars and I am the one that likes them. So I could not care less what other people say about my choice of cars. I did not bring up your brand of car as an atack on you, I just have a beaf with the Hyundai Corp for YEARS. In my opinion they make ugly cars, you like yours but can you show a pic of another "Good Looking Hyundai" This is a GM based forum, why does it suprize you that I or some one else takes shots at other manufacturers? Like I said I am not taking a shot at you, I dont even know you and have no reason to attack you. I am looking out for GM and could not care less what happens to Hyundai? I am the type of person that will give credit were it belongs and Hyundai just dont deserve it. It is NOT an attack on you or any other Hyundai owner.
This is my opinion am I endorce this opinion. Rick

BTW What exactly is wrong with wanting Corvette performance for $30,000? Nissan 350Z fans expect nothing less? And the after market is HUGE because of the popularity of the Z. I want that kind of succsess in one of GM's affordable cars. The VETTE is way to much money for meand others. And way to many extra goodies, just give me the power and performance in a car that ALOT of people can afford to buy and compete with.

Hehe. Not to worry my friend I take no offense as neither your nor anyone else's opinion has any real impact on my tastes. But, as you can imagine your comment was very stereotypical to me and smacked of alot of ignorant opinions I have witnessed from people that couldn't name any Hyundai model other than the Pony. Alot of "well my father once said...." :willy:
 

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By the way, doesn't GM own a large chunk of Hyundai? If Hyundai loses money, they both do. And does anyone remember that the Tiburon started out as a back to basics roadster concept that only shared the wheel well eyebrows with its production progeny? GM could have gone that route with the Solstice! But the latest version is a great looking car!

A possible specific on GM's styling woes can be said in three words, "Chop the Tops!"
1. Chrysler's got a hot full size sedan platform and the main reason it's hot is the high belt line, low roof look.
2.You've got three good looking SUV's, selling on style, in the H1, H2, and H3 and they all share one thing, high belt line and less is more side glass.
3. GM, you gave a HHR to West Coast Choppers to prepare for the Sema Show and the first thing they did was cut the side posts and it looked great! Learn from them! After all, you paid for it!
4.And make a panel version of the HHR. It will sell because there's no other vehicle in that market. Take a chance! When the PT Cruiser debuted, they also showed a custom that had been made into a panel. Chrysler dropped the ball by not making one. Pick up their fumble and run with it! Remember, the Suburban it was styled to resemble was derived by adding windows to a high volumn selling panel van. Check out the prices of old panel vans compared to old window vans.
 

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ho2go said:
Yes, I've felt the same thing for a long time too. GM definitely needs a sport compact. But I'll have to disagree with you and say that the Cobalt SS *is* GM's answer to the RSX, Celica, etc. The Cobalt SS should offer GREAT performance for the money. So we know GM's capable of it. :) Now like you, I, and Rickady88GT have alluded to, there are other holes in GM's lineup that need to be filled!
I agree that the Cobalt SS is their attempt, and it is darn good attempt. However, one thing worries me from the initial reports I have read in magazines. They all seem to agree the car has a really heavy feel to it. One even went so far as to say it was like driving a Camaro in that regard. Sport Compacts need to feel nimble, and these reports suggest otherwise. They also all seem to agree its probably from the big and heavy 18 inch rims and tires!

Hmm, just thought of something. The Sol is also getting big 18 inch rims and tires. :willy:
 

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Rickady88GT said:
BTW What exactly is wrong with wanting Corvette performance for $30,000? Nissan 350Z fans expect nothing less? And the after market is HUGE because of the popularity of the Z. I want that kind of succsess in one of GM's affordable cars. The VETTE is way to much money for meand others. And way to many extra goodies, just give me the power and performance in a car that ALOT of people can afford to buy and compete with.
I do not remember which, but one of the auto buff magazines last month did a comparo of covertible sports car. The S2000, the Benz and especially the Vette creamed the 350Z. Just creamed it.

I've never been a big fan of V6s. They lack the edgy roughness of a high revving 4, but have nowhere near the gut wrenching throb of a V8. BMW's I6 is fun, but a straight 6 would not fit in the Kappa.
 

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Alwaysthatway said:
I do not remember which, but one of the auto buff magazines last month did a comparo of covertible sports car. The S2000, the Benz and especially the Vette creamed the 350Z. Just creamed it.

I've never been a big fan of V6s. They lack the edgy roughness of a high revving 4, but have nowhere near the gut wrenching throb of a V8. BMW's I6 is fun, but a straight 6 would not fit in the Kappa.
It was R&T. And the C300C R/T later in the issue gave the GTO something to think about.

Whatever happened to the idea of I5's as a way to eliminate vibration and outperform 4's and 6's. Oh yeah, that's Audi and Volvo.
 

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Fformula88 said:
I agree that the Cobalt SS is their attempt, and it is darn good attempt. However, one thing worries me from the initial reports I have read in magazines. They all seem to agree the car has a really heavy feel to it. One even went so far as to say it was like driving a Camaro in that regard. Sport Compacts need to feel nimble, and these reports suggest otherwise. They also all seem to agree its probably from the big and heavy 18 inch rims and tires!

Hmm, just thought of something. The Sol is also getting big 18 inch rims and tires. :willy:
Interesting... sounds like we need an expert (cue: anyone who knows more about this than me!). Can big rims/tires alone compromise the nimble feeling of a car? What is typically done to counteract this? Should potential Solstice owners be worried?
 

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ho2go said:
Interesting... sounds like we need an expert (cue: anyone who knows more about this than me!). Can big rims/tires alone compromise the nimble feeling of a car? What is typically done to counteract this? Should potential Solstice owners be worried?
Narrower cross section is the answer and I direct you to the 'tyres' on an MG T series, 18 and 19 in wheels but only 4-5 inches tread width. BTW those cars had no trunk and the spare was mounted outside.
 

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achieftain said:
It was R&T. And the C300C R/T later in the issue gave the GTO something to think about.

Whatever happened to the idea of I5's as a way to eliminate vibration and outperform 4's and 6's. Oh yeah, that's Audi and Volvo.
Yeah, I recall the article on the C300. The GTO definitely needs more oomph.

GM does have an I5, but it is a truck engine. No way it would ever fit in a sportscar. I'm not sure why other manufacturers do not pick up on the idea. I like the Volvo and Audi 5s.
 
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