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Discussion Starter #41
What he said^

Additionally: the car-to-door 'concertina' boot is a right-angle S-shape. The way to thread the wires through is to detach the car end and stretch it out (nearly) straight. Then reattach the end afterward.

As an aside, for amplifier watts, most head units work on 12V and so are rated at 'peak' watts (that's why you usually see them all say 40 watts - though even THAT is a stretch). Better amps include a voltage booster/inverter so that they can push more watts, but head amps generally don't have enough space for that.
Soup, Sent you a PM too...or "discussion" as this new format calls it.

Since I value all of your knowledge (especially HIDs and LEDs...haha), and I know you will give me what I'm looking for and what I want to do. Will the following speakers work or will I need an amp? I was going to go with a 10" sub and a component speaker set. If I'm going with this sub, should I get rid of the Monsoon amp and buy a new one? Here's what I'm looking at for now. Maybe upgrading the headunit later this year. Appreciate and value any response....

Infinity Reference Series REF6530cx 6-1/2" Component Speaker System 6.5
Features:
  • 6-1/2" 2-way Reference Series Component System
  • Power Handling:
    • Peak: 540 watts per set / 270 watts each side
    • RMS: 180 watts per set / 90 watts each side
  • Plus One+ woofer cone design offers greater bass output and increased efficiency
  • Injection-molded polypropylene cone woofer
  • Hi-Roll rubber surround
  • 3/4" Edge-driven textile dome tweeter
  • Starfish mounting brackets for easy tweeter installation
  • 2-way external crossover network
  • True Four Ohm Impedance technology
    • speaker's 3-ohm impedance combines with speaker wire impedance for a 4-ohm load
    • compatible with virtually all factory or aftermarket car stereos
  • Frequency response: 53-21,000 Hz
  • Sensitivity: 93 dB
  • Top-mount depth: 2-1/16"
  • Grilles Included
  • 1 Year Autosounds4less Warranty
And for the sub:
Kicker CompRT10 10 Inch 25cm Subwoofer DVC 2 Ohm 400W
10" CompRT 2 Ohm

The CompRT 10-Inch Subwoofer is an all-weather thin subwoofer with a pair of 2Ω voice coils.

With our custom SoloKon™ technology and the CompRT’s unique interior support system, the sub sounds fat – but keeps it thin!

The CompRT 10-Inch Subwoofer works best with a sealed or ported enclosure and 400 watts of recommended power. See below for more details.

Specifications

SIZE [in, cm]: 10, 25
IMPEDANCE [Ohms]: 2 DVC
POWER WATTS [peak/RMS]: 800/400
SENSITIVITY [dB 1w/1m]: 84.8
MOUNTING DEPTH [in, cm]: 3-7/16, 8.8
MOUNTING DIAMETER [in, cm]: 9-1/8, 23.1
MIN SEALED BOX VOL [cu. ft, L]: 0.4, 11.3
MAX SEALED BOX VOL [cu. ft, L]: 1.25, 35 .4
MIN VENTED BOX VOL [cu. ft, L]: 1.25, 35.4
MAX VENTED BOX VOL [cu. ft, L]: 1.75, 49.6
 

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Soup, Sent you a PM too...or "discussion" as this new format calls it.
I'll reply here so others can see - and in future, too.

First, here's an excellent post & thread on audio upgrades (from back in the day) that also outlines the factory speaker specs: Kappa Stereo lessons learned

From the first post in that thread:
The system has the crossovers in the amp, the speakers all have there own feed from the amp, including the tweeters in the dash. The rear speakers and the sub are tied together on the fader.
Tweeters are 2 ohm
Door speakers are 2 ohm
Rear speakers are 4 ohm
Sub is dual voice coil (2 amp inputs ) 2 ohm
The Infinity speakers you mentioned seem fine - certainly from the fitment perspective - but you'll have problems using them properly with the Monsoon amp wiring - to quote from above: "the speakers all have there own feed from the amp, including the tweeters in the dash". A couple of notes here:
  1. Since the Monsoon amp is wired to the tweets and woofs separately, I ASSume the Monsoon amp has some basic crossover internally. If so, you'd need to not use the crossover that comes with the Infinitys, that then being a waste of $$.
  2. If there is NO crossover inside the Monsoon amp (maybe just a blocker cap directly on the tweeter), then in theory, you could splice into the Monsoon-door-speaker wiring somewhere (and sorry, I don't know where) to insert the Infinity's crossover, then wire that to the speakers in the door and pillars. But in doing that, you may have decreased volume since you waste one pair of wires (though this depends on whether the Monsoon has separate amps for doors and tweets, or splits them internally off one. I just don't know the internals of the Monsoon amp, so it's all a grey area.
I was 'fortunate' in that my car did not have Monsoon, So I put my own known quantity amp in and wired it directly to my new speaker crossovers and then to speakers. Sorry.

As for the sub, it has the correct impedance, which is good. A 10" is possible to fit, especially if it's flat (or nearly so - read through that thread above), but you will still need some heavy physical mods to the woofer box, and a custom adapter ring, to fit it. But then, I put in a kicker 8" sub to mine, and even I needed to make an adapter ring, since the mount holes didn't align :(

Good luck - seems like you're making a good plan and getting more and more edjucamated as you go - which is a REALLY good thing before you spend any $$$!
 

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To add to what TS said, Google seems to think the Monsoon amp is rated for 225 max. (Copied and pasted):

The Monsoon system from factory (premium) is: solstice monsoon system that uses an amplifier to power two 4 inch speakers in the back, two one inch tweeters & two 6 inch speakers in the doors and an 8" subwoofer behind the passenger. The system is rated at 225 watts max power.

If that's the case, then the actual RMS power is about half that (always ignore an amp's max power rating). Dividing that between the speakers, well... it doesn't make sense to upgrade the sub and other speakers without upgrading the amp. You'll like that Kicker. I have the 12 inch shallow version. But as TS said, you'll have to modify the box to make it work. The good news is that that driver only requires a minimum of .4 cubic feet airspace in a sealed enclosure, which is about right for the Monsoon box.
If you do go with a replacement amp, I'd suggest either a 5 channel (if you're going to keep your rear speakers), or a 3 channel for the front components and sub. Amplifiers will output about double the watts at 2 ohms, compared to 4. With that in mind, I'd suggest getting either a SVC 2 ohm sub, or DVC 4 ohm sub, rather than the DVC 2 ohm sub you're looking at (again, if you're going with a different amp), otherwise you're leaving output on the table.
Also, a quality replacement amp will easily handle 2 ohms and above, so the 3 ohm Infinitys will be fine. I know it says it'll combine with the speaker wire's impedance for 4 ohms, but that'll depend on the wire gauge, length, etc. Why they listed that as a "feature" is beyond me, seeing as such is the case with every other speaker ever made (impedence increases with the use of speaker wire). But either way, those Infinitys will work out fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Thanks guys. So if I go new speakers and sub and amp its gonna run me about $1000 and thats keeping the headunit. Cool. Ive learned a lot from everyone. Thanks!!
 
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Glad to hear it Ghost.. I spent about $2300 on mine with a new head unit. Hard to justify it at times as i hardly spend that much time in the car. New wheels ran me about $1800.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
If I get an amp with a DSP, do I still need crossovers? I can then do better 4" speakers too, or even do my 5" that I wanted to do correct? The DSP will have a 13 band graphic equalizer. Or am I going overboard at this point? I found a great deal on a 6 channel amp with DSP, it's under $400 on clearance. That's why I'm asking. I've ate, slept and woke researching audio stuff....
 

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The DSP is a fine idea, especially if it it is automated (where you have a calibrated microphone and the amp adjusts itself). But I doubt that it has enough range, or is designed for being a crossover. I wouldn't suggest you use it in such a way. Instead use 2 channels for the fronts (and keep the crossover), 2 chans for the 3/4 panels and 2 for the sub.
 

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Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
Kenwood Excelon XR600-6DSP 6-channel Car Amplifier

-or-

Sony XM-GS6DSP
 

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Looking on Kenwood's page, the specs list "Digital X'over" - so it's likely you could use channels for tweeters and doors.
 

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That unit has high and low pass filters but does not have bandpass filters, which means it would work as a crossover for your front components (midwoofer and tweeter), but not for rear midrange (if that's what you're intending to do). But it will work for fronts and sub(s)
 

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And if you're set on having rears, you could power them with the receiver's built in amp and use the KW 6 channels for front midwoofers, tweeters, and sub(s), or use the passive crossover included with the component set you'll get, and use only 2 channels of the KW for fronts, 2 for rears, and 2 for sub(s). Of these two options, I think the first will sound best (twice the power to the front speakers).
 

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question.... for the door speakers,I put in some good poineers, but did not put the back sealing foam cups or the foam rings around the speaker to seal to the door panel. how much difference does it make?? I have them but they didnt arive intime for when I had time to install the speakers. is it worth the pain to pull it all apart to install them? so any body just install the foam backseals and notice much more bass? mine sound great but lacking some lowend.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Looking on Kenwood's page, the specs list "Digital X'over" - so it's likely you could use channels for tweeters and doors.
And I wouldn't have to rewire!! Haha. I HATE running wire in a car! The power cable for this will irritate me enough....lol
 

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Discussion Starter #55
And if you're set on having rears, you could power them with the receiver's built in amp and use the KW 6 channels for front midwoofers, tweeters, and sub(s), or use the passive crossover included with the component set you'll get, and use only 2 channels of the KW for fronts, 2 for rears, and 2 for sub(s). Of these two options, I think the first will sound best (twice the power to the front speakers).
So another question for you. Is it better to have the DSP in the headunit or the amp? Both have time alignment. However, if I get the DSP headunit, I will only get a 4 channel amp vs. the 6 channel I've been looking at....any suggestions???
 

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The best DSPs will be standalone units. But between an amp DSP and a headunit DSP, the amp DSP will probably have more features. If the reason you're getting a DSP is for crossovers, EQ, and delay/ time alignment only, then either would work (although I'd look closely at the unit's spec sheet to be certain). If you're looking to reproduce real rear fill (like a surround sound type effect), then you'll need very specific features in the DSP (the ability to combine channels/ mixer, a sufficient number of inputs and outputs, and/or a built-in surround chip/ processing), at it'll have to be a standalone unit.

Check out the units' DSP features, and look for parametric EQ ability. Most will have graphic eq, but a parametric allows you to choose which frequencies you'll boost/cut, where a graphic EQ has set frequencies. Parametric EQ really allows you to tailor the sound to your liking. Also with better DSPs, you'll have the ability to EQ each speaker separately, vs just EQing the system as a whole or just front and rears.

If you go with a 4 channel amp, you'll have to use the passive crossovers that come with your component set. With a 6 channel, you can use the DSP's crossover. Either will work with a DSP headunit or DSP amp (or a standalone DSP for that matter), but the 6 channel will have significantly more headroom so you can crank it up without distortion.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Alright, I know these are "overkill", but need to know. Obviously I would still like to try and use the rear speakers....until I hear for myself. Which of the following amps are better? Got speakers already that will definitely handle the Kenwood... The Audiocontrol could be a bit much.... Both are about the same price where I'm getting them. The feature I liked with the Kenwood was I could turn down speakers individually.

Kenwood Excelon P-XR600-6DSP
-or-
Audiocontrol LC6.1200

I know that the Audiocontrol is WAYYYY over the power that I need, but the customer service rep at Crutchfield was pushing Audiocontrol. If neither is decent, do you have a 6 channel you would recommend? I would get an Audiocontrol DSP if the price was right on the amp!! Or if you have a suggestion that would give me the same outcome with a 4 channel, that would work too. But, if I'm doing a stand-alone DSP, I don't want to spend more then $400 on the amp. Just want really good sounding music. Thank you all for your help BTW. I know this has been a huge learning experience for me. I added a sub and amp to my MACH system on my Mustang, but I didn't do it...I had it done.
 

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Alright, I know these are "overkill", but need to know. Obviously I would still like to try and use the rear speakers....until I hear for myself. Which of the following amps are better? Got speakers already that will definitely handle the Kenwood... The Audiocontrol could be a bit much.... Both are about the same price where I'm getting them. The feature I liked with the Kenwood was I could turn down speakers individually.

Kenwood Excelon P-XR600-6DSP
-or-
Audiocontrol LC6.1200

I know that the Audiocontrol is WAYYYY over the power that I need, but the customer service rep at Crutchfield was pushing Audiocontrol. If neither is decent, do you have a 6 channel you would recommend? I would get an Audiocontrol DSP if the price was right on the amp!! Or if you have a suggestion that would give me the same outcome with a 4 channel, that would work too. But, if I'm doing a stand-alone DSP, I don't want to spend more then $400 on the amp. Just want really good sounding music. Thank you all for your help BTW. I know this has been a huge learning experience for me. I added a sub and amp to my MACH system on my Mustang, but I didn't do it...I had it done.
I have no personal experience with Audiocontrol gear, but when researching equipment for my system, I removed them from the list of contenders early on based on threads over at DIYmobileaudio.com. Here's an example: Audio control DSP vs DSP Mini?
There are dozens more just like that. Apparently their equipment has a high noise floor, which means there will be audible distortion when the signal is amplified. Also, their DSP appears to be subpar compared to others feature wise.

There are a couple of cheaper DSPs that may work for you, that have a great reputation in the car audio world. Dayton, and minidsp. Some of these models have dedicated "rear fill" circuitry, which sounds like it would be perfect for you. You can't do that with the 2 models you're looking at. Instead, you'll just be reproducing the same signal in the front and rear, which will bring your soundstage behind you. You don't want that.

Also, Alpine makes a couple of DSPs that might work for you, since it seems you've upped your budget a bit. The Alpine I used, PXE-0850, or the PDP-E800. In fact the 800 looks like it would be perfect for you. It's 8 channel, with 2 channels bridgeable for the sub, 2 for tweeters, 2 for mids, 2 for rears. You would not need an additional amp or DSP. You can actually bypass your headunit completely with this as well and stream music via built-in wifi. But it's a bit pricey. With the 0850, you'd also need an amp. With the 800, all you need are speakers.

As far as amps go, you need either 7 channels of amplification total, or 5 total, depending on whether or not you use the component's passive crossovers or if you use the DSP's active crossover. You could also get away with 3 channels, if you use passive crossovers and power the rear speakers with the head unit. But there's no way to do rear fill/ surround with this setup.

  • fronts (tweeter and midwoofer)= 2 or 4
  • rears= 2
  • sub=1

A 6 channel amp would work if 2 channels are bridgeable for the sub, but this doesn't appear to be the case with the Audiocontrol or KW. As a result, your sub won't get the power it needs, and the output will be disappointing.

So, in summary, the Alpine E800 would be a great solution, but it's not cheap. A more economical solution would be either a minidsp or Dayton DSP, along with a 5 channel amp (6 channel if 2 channels can be bridged for the sub), and use the passive crossovers that come with the component set.
You'll want close to 75wpc x4 + around 300wpc x1 for the sub @2 ohms. And again, you can't get 2 ohms from a 2 ohm dvc sub. You can either get 4 ohms or 1 ohm. So make sure the sub you choose can be wired for 2 ohms.

Looks like sonicelectronix has a bunch of amps that would work for this configuration:

 

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Discussion Starter #59
Since the GM-DX975 is out of stock everywhere, and it's the best above, I found this one and I'm going to go with it....I think. Comments?

Sony XM-GS6DSP
 

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That'll work, but because it's only 45 wpc, I'd recommend using active crossovers rather than the component's passive crossovers. You have more control over the sound with active, and about double the power to your front speakers (where it matters). Power the rears with your head unit, or just skip the rears completely. Bridge 2 channels for the sub and you have more than enough power for a 10 inch sub. If you wanted to upgrade to a second sub later down the line, power each sub separately with channel 5 and 6 at 2 ohms.

*note: again, you need a 2 ohm SVC sub, or a 4 ohm DVC sub to achieve a 2 ohm load with a single sub (not the 2 ohm DVC sub you were looking at.) The amp produces full power for the sub channel at 2 ohms. It is not 1 ohm stable.
 
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