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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm pissed off!!!:banghead:

This is not like me. I don't have a mean bone in my body. I don't go actively looking for confrontation; in fact, I will usually do a 180 and head the other way. I would rather just let stuff decay rather than trying to feed it. I am by no means a coward. I just seem to have the ability to put stuff into the 'vault' easily. Typing this thread is difficult for me. Not because I don't know how to type (lol), but because normally I would chalk this up to experience and just simply....move on. Even now, I have a weird feeling in my stomach resulting from the internal debate that I have been having with myself as to whether I should just let it go or to post my thoughts. I am not the kind of guy that enjoys making other peoples' lives difficult. But I just need to say something. The recent documented disaster build of Rob Ashby, the LNF engine that Werks built for for Ritroman, a Sky forum member") that they allegedly forgot to install the piston oil squirters, or they allegedly fell out when Werks built his engine. He would have never known about the oil squirters if the engine hadn't failed and he had to have it rebuilt again. The missing squirters might have actually been the cause of the failure? I have no idea. Along with all the other many documented claims against Werks over the past couple years has morally obligated me to share my recent dealings.

If you are thinking that I am just another PAW hater - I'm not. I have purchased well in excess of $6000 worth of product and until recently, they were my go to vendor for LNF / Solstice bits & advice. I haven't told anyone this, but earlier this year, I felt so endeared by the staff at PAW I actually sent them $200US cash via courier and a very nice letter of appreciation for all their help. I wanted to let them know how much I enjoyed being a "partner" and that I could not of come this far without their expertise and help. The idea was that perhaps they could use the money to buy a nice lunch for everyone in the shop. I wanted our relationship to be special in some way. Who knows? Like I said earlier - I'm just an easy going, nice guy. I like to be liked. this is why this is so out of character for me. But I've been treated badly - treated like a Chump. That's where I draw the line.

It began when I broke my LNF. I ordered a new Hi-Pressure fuel pump and fuel pump cam follower from Werks. A week later they arrived, but not in the condition that I was expecting. The Cam Follower had rust on it. It was discolored and had strange marks on it. This is a high precision piece with a very low tolerance of fit - especially for my brand new LNF head. For those not in the know, it works with similar clearances as a main or rod bearing. Metal to metal contact with just a film of oil separating it from its track in the head. It was shipped in a plastic bubble pack that was certainly not GM. The fuel pump was also suspect, as it too was not in a genuine GM box, there were no caps protecting the fuel connection threads, and the gasket was packaged separately in a genuine GM bag with part numbers identifying it. I emailed PAW about the cam follower and the fact that neither parts were in GM boxes. Their reply was that there newly acquired rescue dog had torn up the package! They even sent me a picture of the dog. Really? They said they would ship me a new one, but I declined and said I would just buy one locally. The follower was packaged in a plastic container that I recognized as the exact same type of container that was used to ship my Werks valve springs to me in. I immediately started to wonder if the valve springs were brand new, and if they were in fact 'performance springs'. I asked other people that had purchased these springs and they all said they were nicely shipped in packaging that bared the marks of the actual manufacturer, that they came in a nice box with separate compartments for each spring. Not springs jammed into a plastic bubble. Mmmm..I now have doubt in my mind as to whether I have received either used springs or springs that have been lying around forever. This is speculative, but could this be the reason why I bend valves at 7200rpm. I have no proof at this point. The springs look awfully close to the OEM units. Without specialized test equipment I have no way of knowing. As a result I decided not to follow up with Werks and reverted back to the Supertech Springs. At least I could authenticate there pedigree. A week or so later I asked Werks about the HP Fuel Pump. They explained that they buy there pumps from ZZP. They come of crate LNF/LDK engines that they pull apart. He assured me that it was brand new. To me, this is not brand new - these are parts that have already been installed on an engine!. I was expecting to receive a brand new pump, in a GM box. I specifically asked them if the pump was a brand new OEM item before I placed the order.

A week or so later, I decided to give them another chance to get things right. There a dozen different vendors I could have used for this order, but I'm a loyal kind of guy, and decided to order my Carrillo Rods and Wiseco pistons from them. I placed the order. A week later I inquired as to when the shipment might be leaving. They said that the pistons had arrived and that the rods would be here on Friday. On Friday, I again emailed them and asked what was happening. I received no reply. Below is an email i sent to Werks:

From: Herb [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 2:26 PM
To: Dave Gilbert
Subject: Parts

I'm really quite upset.

When I contacted you Friday you said the Carrillo Rods had arrived, but you were not able get the order shipped in time - something to do with your daughter or your dog - I can't keep track!. You then said you would get them into the system on Saturday. I emailed you 4 times over the weekend asking you for confirmation that it had been shipped by way of a tracking number. I got no response. Nothing.

This morning I emailed you again for confirmation, and then a second time at 12:30 (2:30 Chicago time). I have still not heard from you. I could have ordered these items from a half a dozen different vendors. I guess I felt a certain loyalty to you and thought it would be nice to purchase from YOU.

It is now 3:30 Chicago time. If by 5:00 you have not provided me a tracking number and a picture of my items next to the shipping label in the same frame, I would like you to CANCEL the entire order and credit my MasterCard for the full amount. I will purchase from another vendor.
I'm tired of being treated like a Chump.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

On Monday, I sent emails asking for the tracking number at 8:13am and at 12:30pm. At 1:11pm I received an email saying the box had been picked up by USPS today, but could not provide me with a tracking number as they were not in the office and had been at home all day tending to a sick daughter - would send it to me later. As per my email above, as of 3:30 Chicago time (5:30 my time) I still had not heard back. At 3:56pm (5:56 Chicago), I asked if he was back at the shop yet? At 4:46pm (5:46pm), I asked him "C'mon Dave....What's going on?". At 8:09pm (6:09pm), I finally received an email with the USPS tracking number. This is where it gets good.

First off, the tracking number provided to me was a Pre-Shipment notification only. As per the USPS website - "The USPS was electronically notified by the shipper on Oct 21st, 2014 to expect your package for mailing. This does not include receipt by the USPS or actual mailing.....". OK - I don't get it! If the package was picked up on Monday 20th of October by the USPS driver, then why is there NO pickup scan, NO in terminal scan, NO in transit scan of any kind, and WHY IS THE DATE OF SHIPMENT THAT HAS APPARENTLY ALREADY BEEN PICKED UP AND ON THE WAY THE NEXT DAY!. - The 21st of October??????...Track this number and look at the date: CV030986264US. - I must be a Chump?

During the course of the next day (Oct 21st), I was constantly monitoring the status of the shipment. I emailed Werks several times about this, and received several answers attempting to explain this phenomenon. 1. Spoke personally to the USPS driver and the package was put into the outgoing - he assured me of that. 2. Sometimes the USPS tracking system is slow. I have seen packages arrive at their destinations before they are even tracked. Really? - I must be a Chump right?

OK, so now I am freak'n out, losing my mind, need to punch something, blah, blah, blah. I email again and ask "What the frak is going on". The response I receive is that they are going to send me ANOTHER set of Pistons, Rods & Donut gasket shipped to me JUST IN CASE. Use whatever turns up first and return the other set. Folks, we are talking about $1500 worth of stuff here. Really? - I must be a Chump! At this point I need some serious pharmaceuticals to calm me down!!. I then get another email with a new tracking number for the gasket and was then informed that the Rods and Pistons are being 'drop shipped' from their respective warehouses directly to me (2 different suppliers mind you). I am now loosing my mind. All I can see is further delays, no way of tracking anything, huge amounts of additional shipping costs - not to mention if they use UPS that I will be charged hundreds of dollars in duty and brokerage fees (remember I'm in Canada).

I've had enough. I emailed back and ask that the whole thing just be cancelled and that my credit card be credited (which by the way was charged way back on Oct 13th - naughty, naughty). I received an almost immediate response saying to return whatever arrives and sorry for the confusion. CONFUSION - No Confusion here. Simple right? Order stuff and they send it to you. No confusion! **** ME!!. It seems very weird to me that they were so quick to refund the $1500 to my card when the parts were supposedly already in transit to me. It is my opinion that the parts were never in transit, if they were, they would have never of refunded the money.

Last week I emailed them again and asked what happened to the shipment - "Did you get it back"? Response: - Said they cancelled the original label, and intercepted the package to have it returned to them. Hahahahaha!!. Is that even possible? BTW: I just checked again - still no tracking information is available. - I must be a Chump?

I'm a reasonable guy. If Werks can prove to me that they actually had the pistons and rods shipped (by way of an invoice showing delivery dates etc), I will be more than enthusiastic to post a public apology and retraction. In my mind, those parts were never shipped, the generation of the shipping label was a last ditch attempt to buy time. Even the offer to re-ship everything was to gain time. I guess I'm a Chump!

The more I think about this whole thing, the more outraged, irate and mistrustful I get. In my opinion this entire transaction was one lie upon another. That's my opinion. Other may see it differently. I simply needed to let those who care about this stuff know. I have a bunch of other issues that have occurred over the past 12-18 months, but to be honest it is time for me to move on and this thread gives me some level of closure. I'm not sure what emotions I feel right now? Amused? Aggravated? Resentful? Ambivalent? Vulnerable? Maybe all of them. All I know is that this is my first step to lowering my Chump factor.

Thanks for reading.


Brass Finger Metal Hardware accessory

Cam Follower they sent me


Packaging for the follower

Rectangle

Spring packaging

Auto part

How my fuel pump arrived

Carton Box Packaging and labeling

OEM fuel pump packaging
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
One other thing...

Tell me which is the OEM spring and which is the Werks

Coil spring Suspension Tire Auto part Suspension part
 

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Wanted the Best myself & also sent them something during my build, A $400 gift on local Snap On Truck....
 

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I think that spring packaging was originally those black plastic push pins. Sad.
 

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At least I know who not to use when I want my LS conversion done. It's a shame what's going on. Trust is gone.
 

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GXP -Coupe1 You are not a Chump ! you purchased a product from a vendor and expect to get the advertised product in a reasonable amount of time .Don't know if you have ever dealt with DDM or Summit Racing (I know they are not a sponsor of ours ) but I can't say enough about Dave at DDM myself and more then a few friends have been building cars for years and for high performance parts you can't beat Summit or Kappa specific DDM Works . I always go to our vendors first as I appreciate their support but if they don't have it my back up has always been Summit . Hope everything works out for you P.S don't want to step on any vendors toes (well maybe one)as far as parts go so if I'm out of line let me know .
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Wanted the Best myself & also sent them something during my build, A $400 gift on local Snap On Truck....
Hi Robert.

We have never spoken, but I have shed tears for you my friend. A $400 Snap-on gift card....Nice!!

You doubled me! Ha!

I think you and I think very much the same way. Your thread was one of the reasons I came forth and put what I felt into text. I am SO sorry for what you have been through. From what I understand you are slowly getting to grips with everything, but still a way to go. If I can be of any help (not sure how), please do not hesitate to PM me.

Good luck, and my thoughts are with you.
 

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Calculating Spring rates

Tell me which is the OEM spring and which is the Werks

View attachment 38737
GXP-Coupe1,

If you are interested you can calculate spring rate without a rating tool. You will need a caliper and/or micrometer and maybe a tape measure. I've used the following formula for motorcycle springs and as long as you measure correctly it's very accurate (for me on a typical 175 pound motorcycle spring I would always be within a pound or so of what I was expecting. Anyway, here's the formula. Hope it helps.

HOW TO DETERMINE ACTIVE COILS OF A COIL SPRING

Count total number of coils, subtract a coil for each coil that touches, these are dead coils. Ground flat ends are a dead coil. Start the count with cut-off end facing you. Directly above that would be one and so on. Not all coil springs are even coiled. You can have 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 or 1/8 of a coil (Example 10 1/8 coils).

HOW TO RATE COIL SPRINGS WITHOUT A RATER

G=11.25X10^6
D=Wire Diameter in Inches
N=Number of Active Coils
C=Mean Coil Diameter in Inches. Mean Diameter is:
((1 Wire + inside Diameter of spring) + (1 Wire - outside Diameter of spring)) / 2
k=A Constant for all Coil Springs = 8

GD^4
------ = Spring Rate
kNC^3


Ex.

G is always the same for all coil springs made from steel (11.25x10^6) or 11,250,000
spring has 10 active coils, a mean coil diameter of 5 inches and a wire size of .625

11,250,000 x .625 x .625 x .625 x .625
---------------------------------------------- = 1,716,613.77/10,000 = 171.66 lbs./inch
8 x 10 x 5 x 5 x 5
 

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The werks spring is on the right... Doesn't take a chump to see that difference:leaving:

And IMO a fuel pump that has been installed on a crate motor, but never ran.

Is a brand new OEM part.

ZZP sells ton of "new" parts from take offs.

Where do you think the get LDK short blocks and stuff?

From complete engines.

That also looks like surface rust on the fuel pump piston, did you try and clean it off?

Appears that, unless I'm wrong, it would come right off with a little scrubby spounge.

Mine sat out and looked like that after a couple weeks...


Now as the fishy shipping thing with the USPS craziness.

You got a valid gripe that all seems weird.
 

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I thought the werks springs were on the left? Sucks that you've had a bad experience with them after spending so much money. Personally I have never been let down by Dave. He has always sent my parts packaged really well along with quick shipping and he has answered all my questions the same day. Hope you get all this settled!
 

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Pretty sure the OEM springs have the end coil ground flatter then the werks springs.
 

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based off the picture which isn't that great the werks spring is to the right it appears. Herb.... i want to clarify that i oversee those springs being made through every bit of the process right down to hand delivering them at the shop. they are 100% not stock and not fakes. Made right here in Illinois by my dads iso9001 certified company that has been around for 30 years making springs for the oem(gm, chrysler, etc etc) and the government. every spring is checked and load tested before being put into a box and brought down to the shop. Anything that doesn't meet spec is tossed in the garbage.

As for the packaging of the springs we shipped out the first 10 or so sets in "nicer" hard plastic containers with my dads labels because my dad had them just sitting there and wanted them gone. The springs go from my dads shop in a single box of the ordered quantity and are further packaged at the shop using blister packs or something else that we have.

So to answer your question YES you got performance springs. Matter of fact, other then the builds we do and being in my personal car(which currently has 60k of hard daily driving and track driving) as well as the shops track car they have put in some midget cars lately running alcohol fueled le5s...... they run 8500rpms with solid lifters.... they do the job they are intended to.

As for the shipping i cannot comment as im just the mechanic in the shop and i really don't handle that end of the business and don't know what to tell you regarding that. I work a second job at my dads company making springs and wire forms so i wanted to comment that you received a legit spring and not a stock set.
 

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Wanted the Best myself & also sent them something during my build, A $400 gift on local Snap On Truck....
I believe i sent you nice thank you message that night and i also thanked you again when you picked the car up. I don't get gifts from customers on a regular basis and when i do it goes a long way for me as i have told you. So please don't think your gift went unappreciated in any sense. I put a lot of hard work, time(my days off too) and late nights into your car not to mention trying to post some pictures and answering pms for you between working my 2 jobs and attending school. so if you feel I don't deserve it as you said then send me your paypal address via pm.
 

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Here is what I posted on the Sky Roadster forums yesterday on the same thread -

Herb,

I am very sorry for the troubles once again. We in no way intended to deceive you in any way. Unfortunately things certainly did not go as planned with our most recent transaction(s) and I deeply apologize for that.

As far as our springs go, they are made my Omiotek Spring in Lombard, IL. They have been in business for 44 years and have made springs for several OEMs through-out the years. These guys know their stuff!

As I have always said from day one we stand behind our products and services and will continue to do so and will try and help you out in any way possible Herb.


Post #2 -

Herb,

1) The rods and pistons were shipped to you like I told you. I will dig through my paperwork when I have some time and send the info to you.

2) Rods and pistons are here at the shop, as stated above I will dig up the info and send that to you as well, will try and get all that and pictures for you tomorrow sometime.

3) If you are not happy with our valve springs by all means go ahead and send them back and I will credit you back for them, not a problem there.


Oh and the part about our rescued Tibetan Kyi Apso, Snow, eating the packaging on your fuel lobe cam follower is also 100% true, if I have to post pictures of her eating more **** here at the shop I will do that too...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The werks spring is on the right... Doesn't take a chump to see that difference:leaving:

And IMO a fuel pump that has been installed on a crate motor, but never ran.

Is a brand new OEM part.

ZZP sells ton of "new" parts from take offs.

Where do you think the get LDK short blocks and stuff?

From complete engines.

That also looks like surface rust on the fuel pump piston, did you try and clean it off?

Appears that, unless I'm wrong, it would come right off with a little scrubby spounge.

Mine sat out and looked like that after a couple weeks...


Now as the fishy shipping thing with the USPS craziness.

You got a valid gripe that all seems weird.
Really? If you main or rod bearing had a imperfection on them, would you use a scrubby on them too?
 

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Yeah cause that's the same thing...

Same material and everything right?
 

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GXP, I'm really enjoying watching your video's, so I hope you get everything sorted out quickly.

FWIW, the two primary issues I see happening between you and PAW (and RA) is; communication and distance. It's hard enough to communicate w/a business face to face, let alone hundreds of miles apart. I have no answers on how to help, other than hoping everything gets resolved eventually for all parties involved.

Hang in there, because I believe your determination is what's going to help you finish rebuilding your engine (and RA) and back on the road.
 

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Yeah cause that's the same thing...

Same material and everything right?
I think that any missunderstanding could bave been avoided with better communication.

My experience is once a product is removed from its orrigional shipping packing it is no longer considered "new". It may in fact be unused, however the packaging is a type of verification of its status as NIB. New in the Box.

The part may BE actually equivalent to a new part in all aspects, but since it is not in its factory packaging it has lost its automatic pedigree.

In this instance I believe that the commuincations issues were made worse because of the time delay involved in international shipping.
 

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You guys are right.

Its more important that these guys get their cars sorted out.

After all, we are all on the same team here.
Sorry to hear of your troubles Herb.

Hope you get everything sorted out, and John gets your car tuned the way you want.
 
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