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Discussion Starter #1
The myth of layering.

One of the topics talked about when ever I go to an advanced training seminar hosted by one of the big chemical companies is layering. It amuses me to no end how mostly sane people can waste so much time and money by applying layer after layer after layer on their finish. If you read some of the popular forums and read about people that applied 40 layers of wax or sealant on their car, it makes me wonder where these people are getting their information. Here are the facts. (Information supplied are from the chemists themselves who make, formulate and manufacture car care supplies)
When you take a dual stage paint system (base coat clear coat) the actual top layer (clear coat which is non-pigmented paint) is only 4 mils thick, or the same thickness of a piece of paper. The goal is to get the most depth, clarity, and reflectivity, shine as possible, while providing the best protection. Uneducated people looking to get the best results are not only wasting time and product by layering, but are also making the finish dull during the process. The persons who says he has 40 layers of brand X on his finish, might of applied 40 coats, but in the end after all that time and work, he only has 2 maybe 3 layers on his car. Reason is simple chemistry. Lets assume you are using a high quality sealant, not wax. Once you have the first layer down and it has bonded properly, you can apply another layer for this reason. Most people do not get full coverage on the first application, so during the second application you have a better chance of covering the entire surface. Any more applications during a time frame of say a week or so; all you are doing is removing the layer under it. Let’s say for argument sake this doesn’t happen. Layering would make the finish dull and unpleasant to look at. You would be looking at the 40 coats of whatever you used on the finish, so in essence you would see the clear coat through 40 layers of product. Take a piece of saran wrap and put it on your finish, how does that look, kind of yellow?. So since actual layering does not happen, why do people do it? Mainly because other people are doing it that are just as uneducated. Plus, the companies that make that product love you when you waste product. That way you buy lots more products. The people who layer will tell you, Hey look at my car, it has 30 layers and see how it shines!!! First of all, if anyone spent that kind of time detailing their car, of course it will look good. But the truth is, I will put my work up to it with 2 layers and I would bet most judges would pick my car hands down. If most of the people I talked to really understood the fact you could attain the same or better results by spending less time, less work, and less product on your car, they would fall dead in their tracks. When I ask students in my class what would they rather do, spend time driving and enjoying their car, or more time cleaning and detailing it, the answers is always the same. They would rather drive and enjoy it. Gary Kouba, Owner Perfect Auto Finish
 

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Layering

Thanks for that informative post. It seems to be natural for people to assume that more is better. I like to watch tv shows that educate and detail how everyday common products are made. We all take a lot of products for granted and I still buy some products offering questionable value based on a catchy product label. I've had good results with Nu Finish wax and find one application produces a nice shine and a super smooth surface.
 

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I think the problem goes back to the previous paint system. When I worked with my Dad in the local GM Dealership body shop, the paint was either lacquer, or enamel. GM was lacquer. To get a really fantastic paint job you would put on many layers of lacquer, let it dry, wet sand it with a used piece of 600 grit sandpaper and hand buff the paint. The more coats of paint the "Deeper" the finish looked. I repainted a Triumph Spitfire that I owned with 16 coats of lacquer. It looked like a bronze mirror when I was done. We even would at times lay a couple of coats of clear lacquer over the sanded colored lacquer. The results were fantastic. This wasn't the typical paint job of the time, just what was used on "Special" cars. I think people today still think you have to have many layers on for a good finish. My opinion has always been that the least amount of anything you can put on over the paint the better you are. Don't hide the finish, just enhance it.
 

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:agree: I personally prefer apolish to a wax. Not only do I get the desired results but also is much less effort to apply. With the great polishes like NuFinish and my all-time favorite Astroshield, you can apply the product to the entire car instead of panel by panel as with wax. Initially two coats are manufacturer recommended just to make sure you have full coverage, but they indeed do last up to 6 months or longer.

Astroshield, being the more fluid of the two, also allows for a preferred bare hand application. Try this as it really works, but remove any rings first. Your hands will not reintroduce cleaned contaminants to another part of the car, mainly because you will keep cleaning your hands and with a cloth you may be tempted to use same cloth on entire car.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Like I said, the guy who applied 75 layers on his car wasted 73 layers of product plus his time. what you see is 2 layers actually on his car. as far as the laquer paint systems of long ago, I agree the more the better, but we cat not talking about paint systems here that is intirally different. I would bet that guy would faint if he saw what I could do with a two layer finish. Gary
 

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I got eighty coats of mostly a product called tropical gloss. Its the most easyest product to put on and rub off. Its a 2002 gmc red with two tone silver at the bottom. the truck never sees the winter. My number one comment is they think the truck is brand new. I talked to a fireman that had a red ford pickup truck at the station they wax it every three weeks. the truck is seven years old and it too looks brand new. If you visit any fire station ther fire trucks look brand new I think its all that wax they apply monthly. and my finish is not yellowing.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Dave, you win the grand prize!!!!!!!!
If you visit any fire station ther fire trucks look brand new I think its all that wax they apply monthly. and my finish is not yellowing.
Today 02:44 PM
This supports what I have been saying all along, most wax will not last over 30 days, so applying a layer every month is what I call regular maintenence for waxing a car. I promote synthetic sealants at my shop, it will give you protection up to 6 times longer than any wax. When you use a sythetic, two coats within a week will give you maximun protection. Gary
 

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turbomangt said:
Dave, you win the grand prize!!!!!!!!
If you visit any fire station ther fire trucks look brand new I think its all that wax they apply monthly. and my finish is not yellowing.
Today 02:44 PM
This supports what I have been saying all along, most wax will not last over 30 days, so applying a layer every month is what I call regular maintenence for waxing a car. I promote synthetic sealants at my shop, it will give you protection up to 6 times longer than any wax. When you use a sythetic, two coats within a week will give you maximun protection. Gary
I think i wax about every three weeks at a time .I have a truck camper if the weather was bad lots of rain mud when I camp I will wax my truck sooon as I get back from camping. It keeps the finish fresh. Some people say i am obssesed with all this waxing but i dont wax layer after layer just more often then most. I like your saying once a month or so is regular maintence its seems like most people wax once in spring and once in the fall before winter
 

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dave clancy said:
the truck is seven years old and it too looks brand new.
Think it might also be that a fire truck spends 95% of it's life parked in a garage, shielded from the harmful sun and elements? ;)
 

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LBJay said:
Think it might also be that a fire truck spends 95% of it's life parked in a garage, shielded from the harmful sun and elements? ;)
that helps too but i know they have always been waxed a lot more than the average car. those full time firemen have to do something with there time when they are idle
 

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dave clancy said:
:cool:
that car is blinding me i think i need sun glasses to look at beautiful red finish :cool:
Thanks Dave. I told me Dealer not to Wax my car. They washed it O.K.

But, I figured I could spend a few hours with NuFinish and avoid the possibility of swirl marks from a Buffer. I just put it on by hand.

Consumer Reports rated NuFinish as a No.1 pick a few years back, And I figure I might as well stay with what I know works well.

With the Clearcoat on Cars today, It's nice not having the color come off on your polish cloth like it did back in the 70s Mitch
 

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MITCH said:
Thanks Dave. I told me Dealer not to Wax my car. They washed it O.K.

But, I figured I could spend a few hours with NuFinish and avoid the possibility of swirl marks from a Buffer. I just put it on by hand.

Consumer Reports rated NuFinish as a No.1 pick a few years back, And I figure I might as well stay with what I know works well.

With the Clearcoat on Cars today, It's nice not having the color come off on your polish cloth like it did back in the 70s Mitch
the more i think of it my car will be black, i afraid of getting those swirl marks will have them wash it only
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I can't talk about some products on the forum since I'm not officially a sponsor (not sure how to become one either after trying for 3 months) anyway, the products mostly available to the public are retail or boutique products as I like to call them. Before I became a professional I used the same stuff you guys did, but after I used pro products it was like night and day. Most big chemical companies don't want to sell the public, they would rather pack in bulk and don't want to deal with the questions people ask about using the products. Since I have tried hundreds of items, and work on high end cars, I have pretty good idea what works. The people that bring me their cars are mostly perfectionists. (just like this group) :yesnod: Gary www.perfectautofinish.com
 
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