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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello guys,

1)I have built a 2.4 gen3 block for boost and after installing it started priming the oil pump. To my surprise, I saw no oil coming out of my turbo oil feed which i ran from a splitter at the oil pressure sensor location.
I disconnected the coils and injector wires for this process.

After cranking it well over 2 minutes - no oil.
When I installed my oil pump, I lubed it with assembly lube but did not pack it with grease... some searching online suggested that this may be a problem.

2)I drained about 2-3qts of oil and forced it under pressure through the oil pressure port.
I cranked the engine and saw the oil coming out of my turbo line and cam rockers.
I also have heard pops and clicks as if oil was squirting from somewhere, but i'm not sure if that sound was also caused by the air coming out along with oil...
I also saw oil floating down from my cam sprockets. Likely from a generously lubed timing chain.
I thought success!! and went on with assembling the rest of the car.

3) 3 Days later after reconnecting everything I decided I'll prime it one more time to make sure there is oil in the turbo line and everything is still fine.
After cranking it for a minute (4-5 15 sec cranks) is saw no oil coming out of my turbo line...

At this point I suspect one of the 2 issues:
  • There is still air in the pump
  • I did not make a good enough seal around the pickup tube from the oil pan and there is a leak there

I really don't want to pull the engine to check the seal or pull the radiator and remove the balancer to take the pump off

I'm wondering would it be safe to pump some oil under pressure through the oil pressure sensor port again, keep the cover off and watch if oil is flowing and if the pressure light comes on?
If there are any mechanics here, what are your recommendations at this point?

Note:
  • The oil pressure port is my only oil gallery access location. The rest of them are not drilled on my block like they are on gen2 blocks...
  • I have a neutral shaft delete kit installed. It consisted of 2 bushings that blocked off one oil port on each side.
  • I started with a brand new bare block
 

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I have heard of an improperly installed neutral shaft delete kit can cause this if the sleeves are not installed perfectly. I am not sure why people do this. There is no real noticeable power to be gained from it. There are a few YouTube vids on it. One of them are the reference about losing the oil pressure. You may want to search there.
Good luck
 

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The reason for doing the delete of the balance shafts is to allow for a higher RPM. The balance shafts help to smooth out the engine at low RPM but cause a lot of vibration at high RPM. If deleting the balance shafts there is a set of plugs/bushings that have to be used. Those bushings are what bock off the oil galleys to the balance shafts. You have to be careful in how they are put in as you can accidentally block off the galley to the balance shaft chain tensioner. You only want to do that if you have converted the water pump to electric and you are doing a complete balance shaft chain delete.


The oil pump doesn't need to be primed The engine does but not the pump. it is self priming. The reasons why you would have no oil pressure is caused by a bad pump or the pickup tube is sucking air not allowing the pump to prime. You need to get out coming out of the turbo feed line. I do not understand why you have teed off the oil pressure sending unit. I believe there are 3 plugs on the right side of the block just below the exhaust manifold and those plugs are for oil galleys.

Motor vehicle Automotive exterior Gas Automotive tire Automotive design


Blue = oil feed
red = oil return (has to be drilled)

the galley has an M12x1.75 thread.
 

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I would pull the turbo and pull one of those plugs and then crank it to see if you get oil coming out of the galley. If you do then you know the pump is primed and you may have a collapsed spot in your feed line for the turbo. If the line has stainless steel braiding over it the line can be twisted inside of the braiding and you would not know it by looking at the line. You also want the oil feed line to be as short as possible and connecting to where the sending unit is on the opposite side of the block just above the starter which is a really long ways away. You also want as few turns as possible in the line. It could be that the line is simply to long and has too much head pressure in it and that is not allowing the oil to come through it given that the pressure is going to be really low because you are at really low RPM (200 ish)
 
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Sorry I just notice you said that you block isn't drilled for the additional ports.
In that case you are going to want to drill it.
 
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This is the block you have?


Automotive lighting Rectangle Automotive exterior Auto part Fashion accessory
 

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Here is another gen 3 2.4 and you can see the oil galley on this one.

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Need to know what 2.4 block you are using.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I would pull the turbo and pull one of those plugs and then crank it to see if you get oil coming out of the galley. If you do then you know the pump is primed and you may have a collapsed spot in your feed line for the turbo. If the line has stainless steel braiding over it the line can be twisted inside of the braiding and you would not know it by looking at the line. You also want the oil feed line to be as short as possible and connecting to where the sending unit is on the opposite side of the block just above the starter which is a really long ways away. You also want as few turns as possible in the line. It could be that the line is simply to long and has too much head pressure in it and that is not allowing the oil to come through it given that the pressure is going to be really low because you are at really low RPM (200 ish)
kgschlosser thank you for your input

1) The bushings that blocked off the galley went deep into the middle of the engine. There is a ridge on a bushing and i inserted it all the way in up to that point. I'm pretty sure that it did not block off anything it should not have.

2)I am pretty certain that the oil pressure port is the only location on this block for my turbo feed. Here is the picture of the same side taken at some point during the build process. I even took it to a machine shop to see if they could tap somewhere closer and the builder said he would not take on a job to do it because the hole needs to be too deep and there is a chance we can hit the coolant passage.

Green Rectangle Gas Engineering Auto part


3) This is my T and how I'm testing the flow. I have a 4" or so rubber hose attached to this T to see if the oil is gonna flow.
Textile Motor vehicle Automotive tire Cool Eyelash


4) Do you think it would be OK to prime the oil through this port and start the engine and monitor if the oil is going to flow fine and watch the pressure sensor and the stop if it does not? or it is going to be too much risk?

5)If I have to check the seal in the oil pan I thought I would remove the timing cover and suck on that opening from the oil pan and see if the oil will come up, though i would really hate to do that... i would need to pull the radiator and it will be a mess...

Here is a video of what it looked like after I pumped the oil into the galley and then cranked the engine. I cant get the same result after 3 days now by just cranking it.
2 new items by Michael Ignatysh
 

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You had the photo upside down so I flipped it.

blue = oil feed
red = oil return


Green Circuit component Engineering Gas Electronic instrument



The line you are running for an oil feed line is also too small. you need to be 3/8 or better yet 5/8. This is because of the length of the line you have.

You can get to the oil pressure sending unit. Take it out and crank the engine and see if you get oil coming out.

If you don't then you are going to have to pull the pump and replace it or you are going to have to get the pickup tube properly sealed.

That is the only 100% way of knowing if the engine is priming properly. How you normally tell is while you are cranking the oil light on the IPC will go out. but to eliminate the additional pieces you put in as being a possible cause I would take it all off and leave the hole and crank the engine. You are obviously going to need to get some towels in there to catch anything that does come out. 2 people will be needed so you can tell the person cranking the car to stop as soon as you get oil coming out.

Me personally.... I would drill the block at those 2 places and put the lines where they are supposed to be. How did you plumb the return for the turbo?
 

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it all boils down to this.. how much time and money do you have invested so far?

The big question you need to ask yourself is..
is it worth loosing the time and money because of it being inconvenient to make the needed changes for it to be done right?
 

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if you decide to drill the block you can either tap the oil feed hole using an 1/8" NPT tapered tap or you can tap it for an m12x1.75.

I would go the m12 x 1.75 route because there is far less risk. It is however going to require you to use an m12x1.75 male ORB to AN adapter.

Tapping it out to be 1/8" NPT will mean you don't have to use an ORB adapter so one less connection but because of the tapered thread you have to make sure to not put the tap in to far and you are also going to have to ream the hole out so it is tapered after drilling it. You are still going to have a higher risk of chipping or cracking the boss (edge around the hole) when doing a tapered thread. Unless you have experience doing this on an engine block I suggest going the m12 x 1.75 route.

I don't remember the drill size off hand for the oil return but I can get that to you. You can use the factory GM LNF oil return line and modify it to suite your application. It is an o-ring sealed push in connection. no bolts or threads to deal with.
 

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There should be a whole lot more oil spraying about from the top of the engine. it would make a real mess of everything since you have the valve cover off. I am wondering if you pushing oil backwards into the system is allowing the pump to work but it's only surging what oil is in the galleys and after 3 days of sitting the oil has drained back into the pan and now you aren't getting the surging because there is no oil in the galleys.

That is almost what it seems like to me. At crank there should be 10 psi to 15 psi of oil pressure. Take your air compressor and fill it to 15psi and blow the air out of it. Stick your hand into the stream of air. It doesn't look like oil is moving about in your video in the same manner as the air is coming from the compressor.

Running an engine that is not broken in and without knowing for 100% certainty if there is oil pressure or not is a HUGE risk. pushing oil in from that tube is not going to get the oil to all places in the block.

Oh and just as a silly question because the engine was moving about a lot during cranking like there is compression. You do have the spark plugs removed yes?? and you have been putting oil down into the plug holes between cranking cycles yes?? having the plugs pulled is also going to make the engine spin far faster which will allow the oil pump to move more oil and move it a lot faster too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
RIght, way too much money and time...

Return is going to the top of the oil pan. It is a 10AN line.
I had it in the stock location and it is very close to the engine mount, so I decided to move it away a little.

As I said, I took the block to the machine shop and they advised against drilling it. If they did not want to do it, I don't want to be even close to drilling it with my ryobi drill. I think I'll just upgrade to a 6AN line from my oil sensor port.

"You can get to the oil pressure sending unit. Take it out and crank the engine and see if you get oil coming out." - are you referring to the oil pressure sensor location here?
If not please elaborate, I don't think I understand what the oil pressure sending unit is here. If I remove the timing cover with the pump, there would be nothing pumping oil.

The pump was fine before I started, so the more likely issue is the oil pickup tube. Any advice on how to remove the pan without dropping a transmission? I'm gonna cry if i have to through this again)))
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
There should be a whole lot more oil spraying about from the top of the engine. it would make a real mess of everything since you have the valve cover off. I am wondering if you pushing oil backwards into the system is allowing the pump to work but it's only surging what oil is in the galleys and after 3 days of sitting the oil has drained back into the pan and now you aren't getting the surging because there is no oil in the galleys.

That is almost what it seems like to me. At crank there should be 10 psi to 15 psi of oil pressure. Take your air compressor and fill it to 15psi and blow the air out of it. Stick your hand into the stream of air. It doesn't look like oil is moving about in your video in the same manner as the air is coming from the compressor.

Running an engine that is not broken in and without knowing for 100% certainty if there is oil pressure or not is a HUGE risk. pushing oil in from that tube is not going to get the oil to all places in the block.

Oh and just as a silly question because the engine was moving about a lot during cranking like there is compression. You do have the spark plugs removed yes?? and you have been putting oil down into the plug holes between cranking cycles yes?? having the plugs pulled is also going to make the engine spin far faster which will allow the oil pump to move more oil and move it a lot faster too.
Yes, I was pushing the oil backward, in those spins, the plugs were installed. I have since pulled them and added oil into the cylinders.
I think at this point I'm almost certain it is the pickup tube ..
 

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the oil pressure sending unit is the sensor that you tee'd off of. take the sensor out any any other bits and pieces you used to make the tee so only the hole in the block is left. then crank it and see if oil comes out the hole.

You could be inadvertently blocking the galley from oil getting up into it but not blocking where the galley is going to. that would be why pushing oil in through the tube gets oil up into the engine but it may not be dropping to the pump from that galley.

You should have an m12 x 1.75 male orb fitting screwed into the oil galley and then off of that you have a tee screwed on.

Look at how deep the sending unit can thread in, if whatever you have threaded onto the hole can go in deeper then the sending unit can you are going to want to cut it down so it goes in the same depth.
 

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I am suspecting the oil pickup tube as well but to make sure and cover all bases it's best to work the problem from easiest to most difficult to do. It would suck to start out with the hardest thing only to find out it is not what is causing the issue!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
the oil pressure sending unit is the sensor that you tee'd off of. take the sensor out any any other bits and pieces you used to make the tee so only the hole in the block is left. then crank it and see if oil comes out the hole.

You could be inadvertently blocking the galley from oil getting up into it but not blocking where the galley is going to. that would be why pushing oil in through the tube gets oil up into the engine but it may not be dropping to the pump from that galley.

You should have an m12 x 1.75 male orb fitting screwed into the oil galley and then off of that you have a tee screwed on.

Look at how deep the sending unit can thread in, if whatever you have threaded onto the hole can go in deeper then the sending unit can you are going to want to cut it down so it goes in the same depth.
OK, I'm pretty certain that the oil is just not flowing. I have tested with a banjo bolt on the first try which goes in much deeper and it was flowing strong. Do you have a recommendation for the least painful way to drop the pan? I thought about removing the radiator and intercooler and see if I could make it slide out forward maybe
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So there are 2 things i can do:
1) remove the timing cover, remove the pump
2) check the pickup tube.

if I remove the pump, is there anything I can test? Other than packing it with vaseline?
 

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You should be able to see if the pickup tube is inserted properly with the timing cover off. Use a mirror and a flash light if you can't get your head in there good enough to get an eyeball on it. If the tube is inserted it should be picking up oil.
 

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There is no way to really test them. Did you not put all new internals into the pump when you built the engine?
 
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