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As reported in 5/17/07 edition of Erie Times

SPARK O F INNOVATION



How John Kanzius’ push to cure cancer may have discovered alternate fuel


By DAVID BRUCE [email protected]



Charles Rutkowski placed a test tube filled with ordinary salt water into John Kanzius’ external radio-wave generator.
He then blasted the salt water with 200 watts’ worth of directed radio waves, not quite enough electricity to light three 75-watt light bulbs.
Within seconds, a blue flame erupted from the top of the test tube. It then turned bright white like a blowtorch’s flame and burned for several minutes at about 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit.
“I’ve done this countless times and it still amazes me,” said Rutkowski, general manager of Industrial Sales and Manufacturing, the Millcreek company that builds Kanzius’ generators. “Here we are paying $3 a gallon for gas, and this is a device that seems to turn salt water into an alternative fuel.”
Kanzius, a retired radio and television broadcaster and engineer, didn’t create his radio-wave generator to burn salt water. He designed it to cure cancer.
Now the same machine appears to convert salt water into fuel.
“It was all a fluke,” said Kanzius. “We were showing the device to a foreign official last October. He saw condensation while we demonstrated it and suggested using it to desalinate salt water.”
The ramifications could be enormous. If Kanzius can reproduce the effect on large quantities of salt water, it could be used as an alternative fuel.
Cars could run on engines powered by salt water instead of gasoline. Hydroelectric plants could be built along almost any shoreline.
“It doesn’t have to be ocean salt water,” Kanzius said. “It burns just as well when we add salt to tap water.”
Early tests didn’t work. But when Rutkowski accidentally bumped the test tube while it was being blasted with radio waves, he saw sparks inside the tube.
After several months of finetuning, Kanzius and Rutkowski were able to ignite the salt water on a consistent basis.
“The key was filling the test tube to the brim and then adding a couple more drops,” Kanzius said.
An Allegheny College chemistry professor said that she couldn’t imagine that bombarding salt water with radio waves would generate that kind of heat.
“There doesn’t seem to be enough energy in radio waves to break the chemical bonds and cause that kind of reaction,” said Alice Deckert, Ph.D., chairwoman of Allegheny’s Chemistry Department. “I have never heard of such a thing.”
Kanzius will unveil his generator’s new capabilities today at a news conference but he gave the Erie Times-News a sneak peek last week.
“We discovered that if you use a piece of paper towel as a wick, it lights every single time and you can start it and stop it at will by turning the radio waves on and off,” Kanzius said as he watched a test tube of salt water burn at a lab at Industrial Sales and Manufacturing. “And look, the paper itself doesn’t burn,” Kanzius added. “Well, it burns but the paper is not consumed.” Kanzius has demonstrated his generator’s new use to a andful of people, including U.S. Rep. Phil English of Erie, nd Ed Apsega, general managr of Akron Paint and Varnish, northeastern Ohio-based ompany that helps Kanzius ith lab testing.
with scientific research, having helped design tires for the space shuttle when he worked at B.F. Goodrich in the 1980s.
“But when I saw this, it was the most amazing thing I ever saw and I’ve been around for a lot of stuff,” he said.
“It’s so unique and off the wall. … It’s just amazing that you can do this with radio waves, something that is all around us,” he said.
Kanzius said that he hasn’t decided whether to share his invention’s new use with government or private business, though he would rather try to get a federal grant to develop it.
“I’m afraid that if I join up with some big energy company, they will say it doesn’t work and shelve it, even if it does work,” Kanzius said.
HOW IT WORKS
John Kanzius isn’t sure how his radio-wave generator causes salt water to erupt into flame. He was still awaiting test results Wednesday night but was “99.9 percent sure” that the radio waves broke bonds in the salt water that released flammable hydrogen gas.
 

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Now my first thought is that the radio waves applied, while similar to electricity but enough different, are not enough to break the molecular bonds of hydrogen and oxygen found in plain water. Note that it only works with salt water and what does salt water have in it that regular water does not? Salt. Mostly sodium chloride or NaCl. Sodium burns, and unless they have spectrometized teh flame to verify taht it is hydrogen burning my guess is taht it is teh sodium instead. Still may be possible to utilize this in some way or another in a mobile vehicle, if even as some type of enhancement to regular combustion process. Think in terms of teh recent 6 cyle engine using steam in the extra 2 cycles.
 

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If this is true - Wait until the environmentalists get a hold of this. the oceans will be dry in no time.

Think of the loss of marine habitat! LMAO

Seriously -

Does anyone recall a system developed by and old racer (name escapes me) called the expansion cycle engine? It was a article in HotRod or one of the other car mags back in like the late 70’s / early 80’s.

Basically the guy took a 4 cylinder Feiro and set it up to transfer all the heat back into the intake. Had a heat transfer system set up in the intake manifold and used a turbo to control the expansion due to increased heat.

He claimed to be getting like 250 HP and 50 mpg.
 

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Yes

Now my first thought is that the radio waves applied, while similar to electricity but enough different, are not enough to break the molecular bonds of hydrogen and oxygen found in plain water. Note that it only works with salt water and what does salt water have in it that regular water does not? Salt. Mostly sodium chloride or NaCl. Sodium burns, and unless they have spectrometized teh flame to verify taht it is hydrogen burning my guess is taht it is teh sodium instead. Still may be possible to utilize this in some way or another in a mobile vehicle, if even as some type of enhancement to regular combustion process. Think in terms of teh recent 6 cyle engine using steam in the extra 2 cycles.
:agree: I think the sodium is the key, as well. The water may be a catalyst, increasing the surface area of the NaCl molecules exposed to the radio waves, allowing a separation of the salt molecule and consumption of the sodium. Any chlorine gas off-flow? Energy in vs energy out calculations? I am all for anything that will get us away from mid-east oil!
 

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Now my first thought is that the radio waves applied, while similar to electricity but enough different, are not enough to break the molecular bonds of hydrogen and oxygen found in plain water. Note that it only works with salt water and what does salt water have in it that regular water does not? Salt. Mostly sodium chloride or NaCl. Sodium burns, and unless they have spectrometized teh flame to verify taht it is hydrogen burning my guess is taht it is teh sodium instead.
But the sodium is already oxidized by chlorine. Ionized by it, in fact. You think a little old oxygen molecule is going to make a chloride ion give its electrons back to the sodium ion so it can take them for itself? Now that would take some real persuasion!

But the case for burning hydrogen is almost as weak. Like the sodium, it's already oxidized. How do you burn something that's already burnt? (Yeah, I know. Use a roach clip.) The thing is, hydrolysis of water to yield oxygen and hydrogen takes as much energy as you get back from burning hydrogen (i.e. combining it with oxygen) to get water. That's at the atomic level. In reality you lose energy because of the second law of thermodynamics.

I notice they didn't say anything about comparing the input and output of energy, but if they're actually expending enough energy to cause partial hydrolysis, that's way more than the re-oxidation is yielding. For one thing you have to consider that most of the radio waves are going off into space--even the majority of the radiation directed at the test tube. You have to remember that matter is mostly empty space, so the odds of any given photon hitting a water molecule are just staggeringly small.

I'm going to go way out on a limb here, but I think this story is :bs:.
 

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:agree: I think the sodium is the key, as well. The water may be a catalyst, increasing the surface area of the NaCl molecules exposed to the radio waves, allowing a separation of the salt molecule and consumption of the sodium. Any chlorine gas off-flow? Energy in vs energy out calculations? I am all for anything that will get us away from mid-east oil!
A salt molecule? Did you sleep through chemistry class or what? :lol:
 

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For one thing you have to consider that most of the radio waves are going off into space--even the majority of the radiation directed at the test tube.

I'm going to go way out on a limb here, but I think this story is :bs:.
not to mention the radio frequency amplifiers required to generate the radio energy have a 60% efficiency at best.
 

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Granted, even th eidea that radio waves can target cancer cells is off the normal beaten track, but that's what this retired radio guy has been working on. The sodium is not necessarily bonded to teh hydrogen or oxygen, just dissolved, that's why you can evaporated or distill saltwater ans end up wit hsalt. I am leaning toward this being a sodium burn, which may or may not be usable as a newenergy source, however it could reduce the energy input in desalination of salt water.
 

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If this is true - Wait until the environmentalists get a hold of this. the oceans will be dry in no time.

Think of the loss of marine habitat! LMAO

Seriously -

Does anyone recall a system developed by and old racer (name escapes me) called the expansion cycle engine? It was a article in HotRod or one of the other car mags back in like the late 70’s / early 80’s.

Basically the guy took a 4 cylinder Feiro and set it up to transfer all the heat back into the intake. Had a heat transfer system set up in the intake manifold and used a turbo to control the expansion due to increased heat.

He claimed to be getting like 250 HP and 50 mpg.
Smokey Yunick old Nascar racer who got gaught cheating making a 7/8 size car that is why Tech uses templates to this day. Thanks Norm www.normsfiberglass.com
 

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Granted, even th eidea that radio waves can target cancer cells is off the normal beaten track, but that's what this retired radio guy has been working on. The sodium is not necessarily bonded to teh hydrogen or oxygen, just dissolved, that's why you can evaporated or distill saltwater ans end up wit hsalt. I am leaning toward this being a sodium burn, which may or may not be usable as a newenergy source, however it could reduce the energy input in desalination of salt water.
But it's not sodium metal that's dissolved in the water. It's sodium ions! There's a huge difference. In becoming a cation, a sodium ion gains an electron (Na+). In chemistry, we call gaining an electron "oxidation." So you can't further oxidize a sodium ion. To get back to sodium metal would require abstracting an electron away from the sodium ion, which would require a huge energy cost--much more than you'd be able to recoup by burning the sodium.
 

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A microwave oven uses radio waves, I'm not sure which frequency he used but my cooking hasn't ever created an alternate fuel except after human consumption.:eek:
 

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But it's not sodium metal that's dissolved in the water. It's sodium ions! There's a huge difference. In becoming a cation, a sodium ion gains an electron (Na+). In chemistry, we call gaining an electron "oxidation." So you can't further oxidize a sodium ion. To get back to sodium metal would require abstracting an electron away from the sodium ion, which would require a huge energy cost--much more than you'd be able to recoup by burning the sodium.
BUT, you can burn sodium COMPOUNDS, as well as pure sodium, which as you correctly state is a "metal". How do the burn metal sodium? Not by picking up a solid bar and lighting the end, instead they use the finely ground powder form. Just becasue it is a metal, there is no reason to confuse the public into thinking it is fully equivalent in shape and structure to th ecast iron skillet they used this morning to cook breakfast.

What do these directed radio waves do that conduction heat cannot? Not sure, but it may be somewhat similar to the inside of a microwave oven, except that it may possibly heat only specific targeted cancer cells. Backstory http://www.rd.com/content/radio-waves-and-the-search-for-a-cancer-cure/0/

The mechanics have proven to heat certain minerals, including carbon nanoparticles, so why not sodium, in any form you wish. What happens when you combine elemental sodium with water?
Reaction of sodium with water
Sodium metal reacts rapidly with water to form a colourless solution of sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and hydrogen gas (H2). The resulting solution is basic because of the dissolved hydroxide. The reaction is exothermic. During the reaction, the sodium metal may well become so hot that it catches fire and burns with a characteristic orange colour. The reaction is slower than that of potassium (immediately below sodium in the periodic table), but faster than that of lithium (immediately above sodium in the periodic table).

2Na(s) + 2H2O → 2NaOH(aq) + H2(g)
Now we know that as found in saltwater, sodium is in a dissolved compound, however, pure sodium can react with water as previously quoted, with enough heat (exothermic) in the reaction to cause it to burn. Well, I guess so will the H2, or Hydrogen gas produced by the reaction.

Now, what IF the directed radio waves involved here "break" the bonds of Na and Cl, thus releasing Na into the water, and as it has extra "heat" added due to the energy from th edevice, the sodium (metal) now burns while the outside energy is applied, and ceases to burn when th eenergy source is removed. The dilution of the sodium in the water is sufficient and the salt bonds strong enough to remain intact at normal temperatures, and without any external input th esalt remains dissolved, for the most part.

Why, when the same or higher amount of energy is applied during cooking to saltwater does it not spontaneously burst into flames. Or when using rock salt to melt ice, why does the asphalt highway not catch on fire? Becasue teh salt is still salt, dissolved in and recoverable from the water it IS in. But seperate the sodium from the chlorine and now maybe we have something.

Is there enough latent energy in the water? To recover simply by whatever process can be proven to ignite it? Not entirely likely - dilute gasoline with water down to a 3% solution and see if you can run a car on it. Think in terms of heating your entire house with only the pilot light in the furnace, never igniting the main burner.
 

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BUT, you can burn sodium COMPOUNDS, as well as pure sodium, which as you correctly state is a "metal". How do the burn metal sodium? Not by picking up a solid bar and lighting the end, instead they use the finely ground powder form. Just becasue it is a metal, there is no reason to confuse the public into thinking it is fully equivalent in shape and structure to th ecast iron skillet they used this morning to cook breakfast.

What do these directed radio waves do that conduction heat cannot? Not sure, but it may be somewhat similar to the inside of a microwave oven, except that it may possibly heat only specific targeted cancer cells. Backstory http://www.rd.com/content/radio-waves-and-the-search-for-a-cancer-cure/0/

The mechanics have proven to heat certain minerals, including carbon nanoparticles, so why not sodium, in any form you wish. What happens when you combine elemental sodium with water? Now we know that as found in saltwater, sodium is in a dissolved compound, however, pure sodium can react with water as previously quoted, with enough heat (exothermic) in the reaction to cause it to burn. Well, I guess so will the H2, or Hydrogen gas produced by the reaction.

Now, what IF the directed radio waves involved here "break" the bonds of Na and Cl, thus releasing Na into the water, and as it has extra "heat" added due to the energy from th edevice, the sodium (metal) now burns while the outside energy is applied, and ceases to burn when th eenergy source is removed. The dilution of the sodium in the water is sufficient and the salt bonds strong enough to remain intact at normal temperatures, and without any external input th esalt remains dissolved, for the most part.

Why, when the same or higher amount of energy is applied during cooking to saltwater does it not spontaneously burst into flames. Or when using rock salt to melt ice, why does the asphalt highway not catch on fire? Becasue teh salt is still salt, dissolved in and recoverable from the water it IS in. But seperate the sodium from the chlorine and now maybe we have something.

Is there enough latent energy in the water? To recover simply by whatever process can be proven to ignite it? Not entirely likely - dilute gasoline with water down to a 3% solution and see if you can run a car on it. Think in terms of heating your entire house with only the pilot light in the furnace, never igniting the main burner.
Even if you could reduce sodium ions in solution by radiating it, the reduction takes energy. You're simply not going to get back as much energy as you have to put into it.

Chemist? Help me out here!
 

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Hey if this made any sense at all it would have been discovered a long time ago, it's some fluke (I hope) I'm going home tonight and fill up my Solstice with salt water and turn up the stereo really loud and see what happens.:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Even if you could reduce sodium ions in solution by radiating it, the reduction takes energy. You're simply not going to get back as much energy as you have to put into it.

Chemist? Help me out here!
Oh, I agree that all they may have discovered is a way to release sodium from seawater. Look at any refinery and you will see an eternal flame burning off wasteful products that either are not worth recovering becasue they are inefficient or because they are more toxic if collected and not burned off.

It is, I believe, more than just a parlor trick. And if it can desalinate cheaper with less energy input or quicker than reverse osmosis or evaporation, well there are many sea-locked countries around the world in desperate need of fresh potable water. Maybe whatever is burning here just needs to be burned off, and here they may have stumbled on a way of doing so. AG Bell didn't invent the telephone for the purpose of daily communication among non-hearing impaired, that was just the money-side result.

Goat, these are directed radio waves, not wide-spectrum audio. (But I know you realized that, otherwise we could start marketing Monsson speakers as a performance upgrade.) :kol:
 

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Oh, I agree that all they may have discovered is a way to release sodium from seawater. Look at any refinery and you will see an eternal flame burning off wasteful products that either are not worth recovering becasue they are inefficient or because they are more toxic if collected and not burned off.

It is, I believe, more than just a parlor trick. And if it can desalinate cheaper with less energy input or quicker than reverse osmosis or evaporation, well there are many sea-locked countries around the world in desperate need of fresh potable water. Maybe whatever is burning here just needs to be burned off, and here they may have stumbled on a way of doing so. AG Bell didn't invent the telephone for the purpose of daily communication among non-hearing impaired, that was just the money-side result.

Goat, these are directed radio waves, not wide-spectrum audio. (But I know you realized that, otherwise we could start marketing Monsson speakers as a performance upgrade.) :kol:
What are you saying, I shouldn't fill my tank with salt water? How about if I get all my neighbors to tune to the same station and turn it up REALLY REALLY LOUD!

I grew up overlooking SF bay and remember the Morton desalination plant flame, it looked so cool at night from my Mom's deck. A giant mountain of salt, from what I was led to believe used for roads not tables.
 

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Update

Lab resulst that were unavailable when the story was first written point to a greater coincentration of sodium in the water AFTER the burn - implying that something other than, or in greater quantity than just sodium is being released. Remember that the radio waves we are talking about are directed radio waves. Audio radio is undirected, so also is high frequency microwave oven type, that's why their is shielding in the door, the waves are everywhere. These waves are more pinpoint and precise in nature and the main direction is in targeting cancer cells. Remember the telephoine microwave antennas on all teh towers before teh age of fiberoptic and cellphones? That was directional on a large scale.

If GM's current 300 mile fuel cell vehicle (driven that far on public roads just the other day) could be refueled at home with a machine the size of a water softener, and maybe using the dsame salt, plus tapwater - well, my mind is spinning thinking of the ramifications - and the possibilities of using wastewater rather than fresh and possible beneficial side effects. This could be the holy grail of energy independence, only time will tell. One thing I know for sure is it is not perpetual motion.
 
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