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Yeah lets hammer the crap out of GM. GM sold more Volts than Nissan did Leafs or Toyota did the Prius. To compare the sales of the Volt to the Malibu is idiotic. The car is a halo car as is the Prius for Toyota so GM can show the world they care about the environment and so the tree huggers will love them.

Here's a different spin.

GM Volt Beats Plug-In Prius, Leaf in U.S. Rechargeable-Car Sales - Businessweek
 

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Regarding the Chevy novelty car sales numbers; it remains unclear how many were sold (or leased for $299/month) in the private sector and how many were actually "bought" by GM's co-owner DotGov as fed fleet vehicles?
 

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Yeah lets hammer the crap out of GM. GM sold more Volts than Nissan did Leafs or Toyota did the Prius. To compare the sales of the Volt to the Malibu is idiotic. The car is a halo car as is the Prius for Toyota so GM can show the world they care about the environment and so the tree huggers will love them.

Here's a different spin.

GM Volt Beats Plug-In Prius, Leaf in U.S. Rechargeable-Car Sales - Businessweek
And if gas hit 4 or 5 dollars a gallon and general motors didn't build it, all the guys in the trailer parks would be saying " why didn't the government make them build a car like that! You can't win.
 

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And others need to stop getting all of their lies from MSNBC.............
x3, others that need to stop getting all of their lies from GS stage 1 and upswept or Solsticeforum "Period".
 

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x3, others that need to stop getting all of their lies from GS stage 1 and upswept or Solsticeforum "Period".
:lol: So you feel I lie?

Hmmm, I sense a certain amount of animosity. :lol:

Well, Mr Prosecutor: I would certainly like to see you present evidence to support this slanderous allegation.
 

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As gas prices rose, so did Volt sales. As gas prices fell .....
 

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x3, others that need to stop getting all of their lies from GS stage 1 and upswept or Solsticeforum "Period".
I just get tired of people using the Volt as a scapegoat because they don't agree with this administration's policies. They say "The Volt was the President's green program. We gave GM billions to develop the Volt". Not true. The Volt was developed prior to the bailout. They say "The President wants to be more green and the Volt is a failure with 40 miles per charge". Not true. That is the figure that GM engineers had in mind when the Volt was finished. After the 40 miles, an internal combustion kicks in to run the electrics and go for another 300 miles. They say "The Volt is not selling to expectations". Partially true. It WAS selling well until the mob mentality over ruled common sense. They say "The Volt explodes". Not true. Some batteries leaked and cause some fires. That has been corrected.

I just can't understand why people won't get behind American companies and help keep America going.
 

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I just get tired of people using the Volt as a scapegoat because they don't agree with this administration's policies. They say "The Volt was the President's green program. We gave GM billions to develop the Volt". Not true. The Volt was developed prior to the bailout. They say "The President wants to be more green and the Volt is a failure with 40 miles per charge". Not true. That is the figure that GM engineers had in mind when the Volt was finished. After the 40 miles, an internal combustion kicks in to run the electrics and go for another 300 miles. They say "The Volt is not selling to expectations". Partially true. It WAS selling well until the mob mentality over ruled common sense. They say "The Volt explodes". Not true. Some batteries leaked and cause some fires. That has been corrected.

I just can't understand why people won't get behind American companies and help keep America going.
Ok: Can you PLEASE point to ANY post where I have made these statements?

One more time, for the record:

I find the Volt to be very promising engineering. In fact, it is one of the most innovative designs to come out of Detroit in recent years.

However, if you were to honestly calculate the true cost of the vehicle (back out the federal "tax incentive" to purchase, back out the local and state "tax incentives" to purchase, back out the FREE development grants from Uncle Sam, back out the 0% lines of credit from Uncle Sam, and back out the GM bailout including the 5 cents on the dollar screw job the original bond holders got): Then you would probably have a vehicle that costs similar to the Fisker Karma.

The Volt is a classic example of Government tying to persuade social change, via reallocation of tax money. Although this may be a noble sentiment, it is misguided in principal. Because to do so never has the desired effect on social change, and robs the bank (tax base) of much needed revenue just to keep the doors open.

The technology will get there on its own. It is just a matter of time. The key to ultimate success will be the next generation of power storage systems coming down the pipe. This will be the true game changer. As of now, the fricken batteries and charging systems are just to heavy. And that creates a situation of diminishing returns.

For example: I was all excited about the new Honda CRZ (the old CRX platform envisioned as a "performance hybrid") We have a 1990 Honda CRX DX model with 177,000 miles on it now. I took the new CRZ out for a test drive and was sorely disappointed. It is a complete dog, our 90 CRX blows it away. I tried running the CRZ in every setting, even in the "performance mode", it was a dog compared to the old car. I couldn't get my mind around how it could be so lame, because it has more HP/Torque. Then I looked at the curb weight: The damn thing weighs more than my Saturn Sky. :lol::lol::lol: The weight of the hybrid/batteries just kills the performance. And whats more, the MPG is WORSE on the highway than my 90 CRX. In city driving, the CRZ does have a slight advantage in MPG, about 3 miles per gallon. So there is where I see a slight benefit to all that extra weight. But If I were to run a year on year comparison between the two vehicles and how I would use them, I would still come out ahead with the 22 year old CRX. :banghead:

I am a firm believer that the private sector will make EVs profitable, practical and affordable in the not to distant future. Folks just need to have patience. There is an obvious vacuum in the market, the demand is there for EV transportation that meets these requirements. And the brainiacs are working on solutions now. Check out this recent post by AztekzRpurty (our resident battery geek): http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f26/ev-battery-breakthrough-articles-links-66801/index6.html#post1086178
 

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Supporting north American companies and givin' the luv to GM these days are two different things. First, many are upset with the way that the federally controlled backruptcy went down as original stockholders, ordinary people, got next to nothing. Then, two entire automotive divisions (just happened to be Kappas' own Pontiac & Saturn ) got thrown onto the ash heap of history for no good reason. It's kinda hard to give a sh!t about GM these days considering what has happened during the past three years.

Obviously, we all once trusted and supported General Motors or we would be driving Miatas or Beemers or 370Zs. Production of their boob halo car (sorry Bob Lutz), the Chevy Volt, sputtered and stopped most likely because GM saturated the market, ie ran out of people who could afford to pay $30-$40K for an unusual/inconvenient plug-in type semi-electric vehicle; _not_ because of various gasoline price fluctuations.

Unfortunately, the Volt was an over-hyped novelty car whose time has come and gone. The next generation of fully electric vehicles will likely come from the private sector, as almost all innovations have in the past. Can just imagine the Wright Brothers experimenting with their ground breaking work while having a cadre of engineers and federal inspectors breathing down their necks.


As far as looking to buy American, am all for it! Currenty have three General Motors vehicles and looking to pick up another, a used Kappa. As far as anything in a GM showroom today, no thanks. On a related note, was looking for some tires and finally found a nice set of new-old-stock Goodyear F1 GS D3s and , after careful examination, found imprinted on the sidewall Made in Germany. :eek:
 

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I personally am watching the Volt and other "green" cars with great interest. I am trying to figure out if they are a promising future or a marketing dead end.

Right now the cost / performance for my needs is very unfavorable. But who knows, maybe someday.

My opinion is that had not the government provided funding, there would be no GM now and no Volt. So it's not a huge leap to conclude that our tax dollars are responsible for the continued availability of all GM cars

In my opinion, if you take the emotion out of the discussion there is really no NEED for an electric hybrid, they are however necessary to continue down the path to a truly competitive electric car.

It's loge the Wright biplane. Few wanted to own one, but enough had to be sold to create the market forces that have resulted in the modern aircraft industry
 

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Rob hits the nail on the head when he talks about the future.

Those who want to liken the electric car contest to a contest to see who has the shiniest turd are right. When you factor in all the costs (environmental and financial), especially those big batteries that need lots of rare earth elements from China and the fact that you're just substituting gas for a coal burning plant somewhere else (often, anyway), they aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Those who are excited about the technology are also right. There is a future in electric cars. There needs to be some revolution in battery technology, or some alternative way to provide the juice, but they will have their day. Even if you lose money on selling electric cars now, it may be an investment that is necessary in order to capitalize on future growth opportunities when the technology reaches that next level. Companies that don't have their foot in the door now could be left scrambling if either a breakthough occurs or if oil fields suddenly start drying up (after all, no one is really sure how much oil is down there - its more of an art than a science to guess).
 

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Guys, for one, I was just joking and as for the Volt, I'm 27 years old and an engineering enthusiast. The conversations I have had about the Volt and other hybrid vehicles and general consensus is that they're just to damn expensive. I mean, they are driving people to go green in a mediocre economy. I would love to replace my Gli with a Volt but they want 46k out the door and after taxes. People these days are cheap, milk is expensive and Babies don't get me started so how on earth do you expect an average Joe to say OK to 46K on a compact sized sedan? They already trick you(no matter what manufacturer) that hybrids start at that after the rebate not at the actual sale.
 

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As a moderator I have to watch what I say but I don't see the value in having the same debate every month when then volt sales numbers come out. These threads invariably end up in name calling and mud slinging based on each persons already established opinions on the topic.

Please keep the dialog polite and steer the discussion in a manner of respectable debate.
 

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Guys, for one, I was just joking and as for the Volt, I'm 27 years old and an engineering enthusiast. The conversations I have had about the Volt and other hybrid vehicles and general consensus is that they're just to damn expensive. I mean, they are driving people to go green in a mediocre economy. I would love to replace my Gli with a Volt but they want 46k out the door and after taxes. People these days are cheap, milk is expensive and Babies don't get me started so how on earth do you expect an average Joe to say OK to 46K on a compact sized sedan? They already trick you(no matter what manufacturer) that hybrids start at that after the rebate not at the actual sale.
This is the type of misinformation that I hear all the time. One guy will say 46K, then the next guy says over 50K, then on and on. In truth, the latest Volts are priced at just over 37K plus tax and less any credits or dealer discounts.
 

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The only thing that killed the Volt was the shock felt when viewing the window sticker. I know, I went to the dealer to look at several of them over a few months time. I bounced back and forth looking for a way to justify the cost, I couldn't.

In retrospect I've never thought that lugging about expensive Chineese made batteries was a viable answer and plugging into the grid and driving up home energy pricing makes no sense. Finding an inexpensive way to convert everything to fuel cell technology, filling up with hydrogen at the pump, getting ourselves clear of reliance on middle eastern oil and chineese rare earth, I may be short sighted but this is direction our industry and government should be headed.

Also, quit subsidizing the corn industry and find another source of renewable energy plant to grow...if Brazil can make it work why the heck can't we? I'll hazard a guess, too many hands too deep in pockets!
 

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...if Brazil can make it work why the heck can't we? I'll hazard a guess, too many hands too deep in pockets!
Because Brazil has a climate conducive to growing sugar cane, which can be converted to ehtanol much more easily than corn.

Incidentally, I attended a speech by a former head of the joint chiefs of staff a couple of years back. I don't know if things have changed since then, but he said the Pentagon has woken up to its oil dependence being a strategic weakness and was going long on algae based bio-diesel. He said he expected the US armed forces to be getting 50% of its fuel from it at a cost comparable to petro before the end of the decade.
 
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